But I hate that in looking out for the best interest of my children, I am giving H more reasons to hate me.
Ah man, I have been there in SPADES. I remember when H moved out, I felt so stuck. Eldest was furious with him, and very hurt, and if I listened patiently and showed validation and understanding, H would be furious and feel undermined. And I tossed and turned around this so much. When we were all together, H seemed to need me, desperately, to demonstrate loyalty and respect to him by echoing parenting strategies which were at worst, bullying, and at best, really rooted in his own needs and deficiencies rather than the needs of the kids. I felt so tangled and distressed - my desperation to keep my marriage alive, my care and worry for my children, my wondering how I could help H and Eldest in their relationship (or manipulate them into being peaceful with each other because that was better for me...) my fear that if I didn't get H behaving better and more kindly, Eldest would be massively damaged by it, my feeling that I was having to choose between being a good mother and having a husband - all of that. It was horrible.
But all so unnecessarily complicated. The needs of your children come first. You don't have to be a perfect parent all the time to trust your own judgement. Now and again even two good parents acting in their kids best interests will disagree. If one parent isn't able to act in their children's best interests, or is playing out marriage drama in the co-parenting interactions, the best thing to do is detach. Love your kids, trust that time will take the heat out of most things, that they will rest in the security you offer them, and H can project onto you, or get his act together, and there's not a thing you can do to change whatever pathway he's on right now.
If said child is 13 or under, the visitation IS forced, or will be when there is a custody agreement.
What do YOU think is said child's objection to the visitation? Do they just want to sleep in their own bed? Do they miss their friends in the neighborhood when they're gone? Do they not like H's living quarters? Are they mad at dad and don't want to see him? Is it something about dad's behavior when they're there that disturbs them?
Oh friends, thank you all so much for your thoughts and kind words.
Originally Posted by may22
*I* am worried about *you*. It breaks my heart that you are looking back at this conversation with your husband and seeing places you could have been more compassionate towards him or validated more. Honestly, Sage. Why are you pouring so much of your beautiful energy into this broken vessel?
May, you have no idea what these words meant to me yesterday. I sobbed reading them, the release was exactly what I needed. I realized after a good cry that I was perpetuating the enabling cycle in my R with H: don't give him too much burden or he will break and then you will have so much more on your plate. But that's not my role anymore, for three huge reasons: 1. he fired me from that position, it is not my job to 'protect' him anymore; 2. everyone is going down if I do (ie if I have a real breakdown); and 3. H needs to figure this all out on his own, it is unfair of me to intervene in his process, he has asked for me to step out of the way when he separated from me. I wasn't the only one to choose to have four children and the burden (and joy!) of raising them shouldn't be mine alone.
After a fleeting moment of considering running away to Argentina and renting a small flat and restarting my life, I found my balance again.
H came to take troubled child out for lunch and have a conversation about everything. They were gone for two hours and had a nice time. H and I had a conversation afterwards where I expressed how close to the edge I was and that I was worried about my ability to keep it up. I got teary and I think it shook H. Three hours to myself in 12 days is not going to cut it with the burden of homeschooling, 24/7 parenting, very little adult interaction, no exercise and everything else going on. We came up with a plan where 2-3 times a week H will help share homeschooling duties and give me a chance to exercise during school days. I feel good about this and have a roadmap to recovering some of my mental well-being.
Your comment pushed me to have this conversation, so thank you SO much May.
I can tell H feels guilty and shameful. But not my problem. Detachment, I could hug you!
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Ah man, I have been there in SPADES. I remember when H moved out, I felt so stuck. Eldest was furious with him, and very hurt, and if I listened patiently and showed validation and understanding, H would be furious and feel undermined. And I tossed and turned around this so much. When we were all together, H seemed to need me, desperately, to demonstrate loyalty and respect to him by echoing parenting strategies which were at worst, bullying, and at best, really rooted in his own needs and deficiencies rather than the needs of the kids. I felt so tangled and distressed - my desperation to keep my marriage alive, my care and worry for my children, my wondering how I could help H and Eldest in their relationship (or manipulate them into being peaceful with each other because that was better for me...) my fear that if I didn't get H behaving better and more kindly, Eldest would be massively damaged by it, my feeling that I was having to choose between being a good mother and having a husband - all of that. It was horrible.
But all so unnecessarily complicated. The needs of your children come first. You don't have to be a perfect parent all the time to trust your own judgement. Now and again even two good parents acting in their kids best interests will disagree. If one parent isn't able to act in their children's best interests, or is playing out marriage drama in the co-parenting interactions, the best thing to do is detach. Love your kids, trust that time will take the heat out of most things, that they will rest in the security you offer them, and H can project onto you, or get his act together, and there's not a thing you can do to change whatever pathway he's on right now.
Alison, thank you so much for this perspective. I remember reading about this in your earlier posts and now I am living it. And your latest thread on detaching and letting go of the responsibility of trying to fix everything for everyone is really inspiring me right now. Priority one is me, then my children and if there is leftover psychic energy, I can choose to share my energy with H. I put this into practice yesterday with our conversation where I asked H to step in and support. He could have said yes or no, that is on him. But I certainly wasn't going to get anywhere if I didn't ask.
Originally Posted by kml
If said child is 13 or under, the visitation IS forced, or will be when there is a custody agreement.
What do YOU think is said child's objection to the visitation? Do they just want to sleep in their own bed? Do they miss their friends in the neighborhood when they're gone? Do they not like H's living quarters? Are they mad at dad and don't want to see him? Is it something about dad's behavior when they're there that disturbs them?
You are right, KML. I know when a formal agreement is in place, it may well be forced. So I have been forcing child to spend the night against child's wishes for two months now. Child enjoys spending time with H, day time activities are not really an issue, child loves H, even if child feels closer to me and has some issues with H. It's the overnights at H's house.
Among some other (what I feel to be minor) issues that you mentioned above, child has sleep anxiety and there were some incidences early on in the S where child wasn't cared for as he needed to be at night with H and that started the spiral. If we were in courts, a child psychologist would be involved as it is really quite bad. But H and I have come up with a solution for the time being: child will spend H's custody days and as much free time with H as makes sense and then come home to sleep with me. We are going to try and reset, with the eventual hope that child will begin to feel safe spending the night there again sometime in the near future. I have no idea how this is going to work out, but it feels like the right path and all parties (including child) feel good about it for now.
I am dealing with the jealousy/suspicion issue from H on a daily basis now. If I don't answer my phone quick enough, if I make a decision for our family that in some very convoluted way could belie a thread of a possibility of someone else in my life, if I have plans that are not clearly defined.
On one hand I am flattered that he cares. On the other, there is a level of frustration that he is so checked out of the reality of my consuming childcare responsibilities that he could believe I even have a moment of time to be pursuing some dalliance.
But either way, it is becoming a struggle for me to deal with this dark cloud of suspicion. I am an honest and open person by nature so I am inclined to write him an email addressing all of his suspicions and then just refer back to that email when I get weary of the subtle accusations.
I am not a 'none of your business' kind of person, so going dark in this manner is not a path I will take. Not that I feel I need to justify my behavior, but I am not interested in contributing to the cycle of insecurities that will ultimately hurt our coparenting relationship.
You are correct, H is insecure. The green eyed demon of jealousy/suspicion is tormenting him.
You not being a ‘none of your business’ type gal, perhaps you could do something else instead of an email. Written things will get bought up again and again by an emotionally troubled person; I think it’s best to limit that cycle. Still it is good to acknowledge and validate his feelings. And by the way, it is good he is sharing them. Such as it is.
It is good that he feels what it might be like to lose you or at least he somewhat recognizes the possible consequences of his actions. Again, such as it is. Remember he is driven by emotions, and those are cranked to eleven. So don’t expect much in the way of empathy or even consistent emotional behaviours. He just isn’t there...yet.
“H, I’m sorry you feel that way.”
You need not explain yourself to him. It might even by best to not explain anything to him. Let him stew with his subtle accusations. Things we say to our MLCer spouse, usually will get turned around and used as some irrational form of justification. You can see that from his reactions if you don’t answer the phone quick enough, or make some family decision. He is going to irrationally leap to whatever conclusion feels right for the moment he is in. Keep calm and give him no purchase or handhold to start a struggle with you.
“H, I’m sorry you feel that way. I was driving and could not answer your call.”
If you like, you could include the “why”. It depends on the situation, and you know that better than us.
The way to deal with this daily issue is to kind of not deal with it. Let it go. Just validate and keep moving forward. Your demonstrated good life is a beacon to him. Keep living it. If your life is a bit mysterious, good.
H is on his path, and nothing you do will greatly affect that. Your possible influence, is up to H to see. And he is watching.
Keep leading by example. Be honest. Be cordial and kind. Insecure people need to see, and feel, a better way, and then decide to move towards that better way. Don’t forget, H is emotional stunted and needs to grow up.
And as an emotional teenager, H will test you. Will rebel. Will aggravate. Don’t take the bait. Live that better life and leave him to decide to catch up when he is ready to.
I have four kids. And oh boy, It is so nice once they move from that particular rebellious stage. Currently, it is only D18 and a bit of S20 within that. S22 and S23 seem to have grown and are (mostly) passed it. And yes, it was aggravating.
Just a few thoughts during my break from setting up the Christmas tree. Have a wonderful day Sage.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi Sage, I would love to give you some advice on all this but when I see a spouse reacting so childishly I struggle to not want to tell someone to be petty with a response. I know that's not productive in any way. I'm frustrated watching you drowning under responsibilities with 4 kids and it feels like he's getting them like every other weekend and barely accommodating that into his new life. A few extra hours a week as a compromise to help lift the burden when being subjected to the Spanish Inquisition because you want to run and take a long shower alone and in the quiet seems like you're taking on more. Not less.
I don't have any real solutions for you here. Honestly I'd really like for you to look H in the face and say "A) I don't have to explain myself to you, you left B) Because of A it's none of your business but just so we're clear I'm not seeing any one C) You don't have to worry about me, I'm not you." Granted like I said not productive, enlightened or compassionate on your end, but IMO those are the petty responses his ridiculousness deserves. But given that that isn't really an option I just a have few questions.
Is there anyone else in your life who could spend sometime with the kids to give you a break? I know covid and all, but is there any one who could pop in, even masked just to give you a breather? Can you pop on a movie and leave the bigger ones in charge of the littler ones for 80 min in the house with you to get a quiet moment or two? Next as far as the accusations go, would a conversation with H help? Like a "I am not seeing anyone, I have no intention of seeing anyone any time soon. My health and the health of my children is not something I'm willing to compromise for a date. If, and this is a big if, if the time comes where I am dating some one, and it's serious enough that I'm even considering allowing that person around the kids you'll be the first to know. It's something I think you deserve to know. But as of right now I'm just worried about staying sane during all of this. I need the time and space so I don't end up in the funny farm and for no other reason and I'd really appreciate if you could give me your help with some compassion instead of suspicion." Because I'm a jerk I'd tack on a "I think I deserve that much, don't you?" But once again not super productive.
Like WF my kneejerk would be to tell him it is none of his beeswax. Honestly. (But that is your unenlightened friend May talking who is bathing in anger right now and not super inclined to give him a pass on this one. Consequences are hard, little man.) I get that he's having a rough time but it feels crazy-town to me that he's doing this.
Although, I guess it does show just how much difficulty he is having. To be so ruled by your emotions and have so little control over letting them dictate your actions must feel awful, whether it means chasing the OW and leaving his family or accusing you of dating, which also seems nutty since HE LEFT YOU!!! For you to be under a "cloud of suspicion" that is making it difficult for you to carry out all of the daily responsibilities of your life because he is worried you are moving on is just beyond.
I recall you writing on someone's thread on Newcomers whose WH moved back in and then bounced again after a month that he sure kept a very tight leash on her while they were S, temp checking like he was getting paid for it. Just to push on you a bit... isn't this what your H is doing? And why is it your job to smooth his feelings down around this consequence too? You leave your wife, she may date other people. Sorry that doesn't feel good to him, but that is LIFE.
And to push a little more... are you sure you aren't telling yourself that you need to calm this particular flare-up to make your life easier, or because you want to have a certain attitude with all of this and "nunya" is not really your style? Or are you, yet again, soothing away his bad feelings around potential consequences of his actions by reassuring him you aren't seeing anyone? Just like all of us, does he need to experience the discomfort of not-knowing where you are in all of this to be able to fully understand his own feelings and desires? Is it appropriate for you to be his security blanket still?
In terms of not contributing to the cycle of insecurities that may ultimately harm your co-parenting R, my worry is that this is a never-ending hole for both of you. You will never be able to have enough transparency to convince him, even if you wanted to, and he'll continue to think up ways that you might be "betraying" him because this is stemming from someplace inside him, not from you.
One caveat... I do think that telling him something specific due to COVID is a good idea, if for no other reason than I think you would want to know the same thing from him. When he went on his work trip and presumably saw OW with unknown levels of precautions, I remember you wanting to protect your own health and that of your children's by asking him (rightfully, in my book) to take additional precautions upon returning home. So while maybe outside of COVID it wouldn't make sense for you to need to explain yourself, I do see the value right now in telling him something along the lines of what WF suggests. Maybe a simple "I'm sorry you feel that way. I will absolutely let you know if my COVID risk profile changes, and I hope you will do the same." would be enough.
Oh Sage, you have the biggest heart on the planet. I worry that you're pouring it into everyone around you and not keeping any energy for yourself. I know with COVID and distance learning and all the rest (even if not going through all this WH stuff) it is just too much sometimes. My feeling on all of this is that the kids aren't going to have long-term scholastic damage from this (and if they do, so will every other child on the planet, so we'll all be the same distance behind). I have zero shame these days in letting the kids watch a movie so I can get a little nap. Can you cut yourself some parenting/schooling slack and carve out some time for you?
xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Sage, I'm also on my own with my three kids but we don't have problems with covid right now. So I can only imagine the kind of stress you're under trying to manage the household. I often times also feel like everything is too much to bear. But there is no other option. We are the only stable parents in the house. The show must go on.
What I find helpful is to lower my own expectations of what a good mother should be. I've let go a lot on their academic performance - it was just impossible and damaging to my relationship with the kids when I kept the bar high. Instead I've made their state of mental health a priority. I always think of it this way - my H is an Ivy League grad. But look at him now!! I don't want my kids ending up like him. Also the other stuff too. My house is more messy that I'd like it to be, there's a lot of room of improvement. But I cut myself some slack way more than before.
Do more things for you, if possible. That's probably one of the hardest thing in this covid-era.
Regarding your H's suspicion issue, my H is similar. To this day he would still say things like "now you are free to go find a new man like you've always wanted." (which I've never said that) And I've stopped responding to him when he makes a comment like that. In the beginning I would try to explain myself, but now it really does not matter to me what he thinks. It is none of his business.
And I would add, be careful of the "I'm flatter that he cares" narrative. My guess is that it's not YOU that he cares, it is his ego. That is not a sign of love, it is sign of control, insecurity, maybe even guilt.
Ooooo good call on the lowered expectations wooba. This also made me think of somethings regarding the responsibilities being a bit much. So as we know I've been battling depression a long time, so I follow some mental health professional mom influencers. Some of which are at home with a gaggle of kids trying to live through these crazy times. One I follow on TikTok does a lot about self care and care tasks with depression and she's found it's really helping support a lot of primary caregivers during these times. Some of the main things she makes clear are: care tasks never end, babies don't stay babies forever take the time to truly enjoy some moments with each kiddo every day, and self care because you can't put the oxygen mask on others if yours isn't on.
So care tasks - cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping. The things that you can finish but are never finished. She does a lot of work around not valuing yourself on how well, quickly or often you complete care tasks. That you are not valued as a person based on those things. That your home is a home it is lived in and there is no need to be a Better Homes and Gardens photo shoot. She also does a lot of work on allowing yourself the space to use short cuts like paper plates, ordering take out, paying a little more to have groceries delivered, whatever it may be to help ease the burden. She also talks about being willing to let the laundry pile up, or to not vacuum for days. To not force things in for the purposes of a tidy home, to do them because you feel like it, or because it needs to be done. And doing these things within the limits of how much you have the energy for. If you only have time and energy for 2 loads makes it underwear, socks and other essentials. Things like that. The self care part, she doesn't just talk about bubble baths and yoga. She talks about protective hairstyles for all types of hair so you don't have to wash your hair every day if don't have time or energy to shower every day. She talks about finding space for yourself during the day even if it means not being super mom and popping on some Disney+ and throwing fruit snacks at the kids.
Another thought I had was maybe looking into age appropriate chore charts, and no your kids shouldn't have to pick up the burden because you H is out the door, but self reliance is good thing, as is doing your part as a member of a household. You guys are living, working and learning in the same space far more than normal and you all are having to deal with changes. Maybe making some tweaks to the care tasks in your home can alleviate some stress for you and help to usher in a new normal for you guys.
Point being here, Sage, you do not have to be all things to all people all of the time.
