Courage - part 2

[AndrewP]

Uuuuummm for the record I would not classify meatloaf as healthy food.

LOL. Be careful or we'll turn this into a recipe thread.

I'm rather proud of my meatloaf recipe which is a mix of my daughter's and my own inspirations.

High in fibre too.

[kml]

I told her that she still has access to the "family" banking although I'm sure she knows that I'll be watching it closely

Please don’t keep any more money in that account than you’re prepared to lose.

[bttrfly]

^^^^ what kml said

[AndrewP]

Please don’t keep any more money in that account than you’re prepared to lose.

I don't have a lot of cash generally on hand - and I would doubt that S would do what my ex did and drain 50% of the savings account to take an OM to Roatan.

Rough morning - the reality is sinking in. Minor hang-over as well but it was a very nice bottle of Chianti and I had a nice soak in the tub. We had a heck of a storm last night. I had a quick walk around the property and there's no damage so that's good. Neighbours have lost sheds and there were quite a lot of trees down.

I'm struggling with conflicting emotions - wanting to call S and tell her it was all a mistake and that we should try harder. Knowing that that is a hugely bad idea and that she would probably agree with that.

Like I will do here, I was reading back to last year when B and I split to see how I was processing my emotions then and to think about the differences and came across this nugget.

Criteria for new woman:
1) Must like cats
2) Must be fiscally responsible and hopefully self-sufficient
3) Good in bed
4) Kind
5) Reasonably tidy (asking for someone on your level there may be too much)
6) Interested in ideas and the world

I have one more to add to kml's list: Self starter and can follow through on what you say you will do.

Sheesh - did I ever miss out on that with S. She's pretty much 1 for 7 on that list although even #3 was pretty infrequent as such things can go.

This is the absolute first time in my life that I've been the dumper and not the dumpee. In some ways it feels even more crappy because it is (and I know people will disagree) all my fault and responsibility. I also feel a sense of obligation to "fix" things but really I'm doing all I can by staying the heck out of the way.

I've contacted the couples counselor to let her know that we won't be needing the next appointment and that S may be wanting to see her and that a couple of sessions could be covered financially. I also contacted the local family health team where I got counseling and they gave me a name of a psychologist that I've reached out to. I have insurance for either a psychologist or social worker so hopefully they have the right too-sets.

The house feels weird - both crowded and empty. I have a lot to process and it will take time (and probably a lot of posts here) especially since S's departure may well be dragged out through until the New Year. I've told my immediate family and a couple of friends about this. I need to be sure that she is the one that tells the boys which she probably won't do for a bit yet. Given that I know her pattern of using former partners as storage I know that I need to be firm on that as soon as she has a place to put it or the funding available to rent a storage space. There's no good pushing on that at present though - she has some huge decisions to make first about where she's going to live for starters.

For me I have to at least for now resist the urge to start packing up her stuff.

Blech.

[kml]

I'm struggling with conflicting emotions - wanting to call S and tell her it was all a mistake and that we should try harder. Knowing that that is a hugely bad idea and that she would probably agree with that.

Yes it is a HUGELY bad idea! And you've already noted the sense of relief that you have - that tells you everything it should.

The question you need to ask yourself is WHY would you feel like doing that in the first place? Is it just because you feel guilty for being the dumpER? Is it because you're afraid to be alone? Is it because once all the negatives are out of sight you forget about them???

Oh - and I was pretty right-on with that list, wasn't I? Keep that around to vet future dates. And ask yourself why you ignored all those thing. Was it because you don't think you're WORTH having someone with those attributes? Or does someone who has their act together not make you feel sufficiently needed? Or is it just a bad pattern repeating because it feels familiar?? These would be good questions to explore with a therapist.

[Dawn70]

You are totally right...I disgree that it is all your fault and responsibility. You need to work on this in counseling, Andrew, seriously. This is NOT a healthy attitude. S is not a child and you did not kidnap her or force her to move in and have a relationship with you. She was a willing participant (willing to let you take care of her responsibilities while footing the bill, but not willing to put in the real work to have a sustainable relationship and meet your needs). You talked to her about issues that were bothering you on numerous occasions, which is more than many of us got from our WAS and even agreed to seek counseling with her to give it your best shot. But, Andrew, at what point are you going to open your eyes and realize that YOU were the only one giving it your best shot? I don't doubt that S had love for you, but I highly doubt that she was completely altruistic in her motivation to pursue and snag you. She saw you as a stable provider and learned quickly that she could manipulate you to get her way and what she wanted so you were a great mark for her. I also don't doubt that now that you have delivered your message that you will hear some unsavory things about yourself around town, just like she did with previous relationships. She will paint herself as the victim and you as the villain. Don't go along with her and paint yourself as the villain too. You are NOT the villain!

Like the others said, do NOT offer her storage space or you will never be shed of her and do NOT leave a bunch of money at her access, even if you did caution her you'd be watching it. Are you familiar with that phrase about the fox guarding the hen house?????

I'm glad you ended it and while I get that it will take a bit of time to get it sorted out and get her actually out of the house, do not let her linger or tarry anymore than necessary or you will get sucked back in. Just like with B, you are already starting to want to reach out with her. This is your pattern, Andrew...do NOT do it! H3ll, post something on here or send me a private message if you need to talk to someone, but do NOT reach out to S. If you do, she'll see it as getting her foot back in the door and she will come at you with guns blazing. I feel for her s18, but a part of me disagrees with what others have said about allowing him to stay on even after she goes. I think it is great that he has bonded to you and that he has a semblance of normalcy with you that he's never had before. That is awesome! My fear in him staying though, is that it will be yet another avenue of maintaining contact with S. I get that he is 18 so legally an adult. I also get that S is a very uninvolved parent, but I bet good money that if S18 stays on with you, S will become suddenly very interested in parenting him as a means of having a direct route to have contact with you. I know that all sounds very conspiratorial and all, but that is just how I see it all going down in my mind. The sooner you can get her out, get her off your accounts and remove her stuff from your house, the better it is going to be for everyone. S is going to land on her feet, but if you continue to allow her to have access to your bank account, she is going to do so at your expense.

I must, again, say how sorry I am you are hurting and going through all this. I'm also sorry if my above comments sound harsh. I just have a hard time with women like S who take advantage of people. It is discouraging and disheartening to watch. You deserve so much better!

[AndrewP]

In my own defense ...

Criteria for new woman:
1) Must like cats
- very pet friendly as long as she doesn't have to do anything to take care of them
2) Must be fiscally responsible and hopefully self-sufficient
- plucky single mom making do who had a part-time job and various side-hustles. An "entrepreneur"
3) Good in bed
- and enthusiastic aaannndd then kids and back pain blah de blah de blah
4) Kind
- An "every-Mom" who took care of others and took in kids who were struggling.
5) Reasonably tidy (asking for someone on your level there may be too much)
- Tidy in dress and I put down the mess originally to kids sabotaging her. I did notice her van was very messy (didn't realize "how" messy for a while but put that down to kids too.
6) Interested in ideas and the world
- Seemed to be although I am an economics, politics and history nerd so I don't judge

I have one more to add to kml's list: Self starter and can follow through on what you say you will do.
- plucky single mom

The question you need to ask yourself is WHY would you feel like doing that in the first place? Is it just because you feel guilty for being the dumpER? Is it because you're afraid to be alone? Is it because once all the negatives are out of sight you forget about them???

Second thoughts are what we do It is easier to overlook the negatives when they are out of sight. She's not been here regularly for some weeks now and I think "well - it couldn't have been "that bad"" - I took pictures and it was indeed that bad as far as the physical environment goes. I read old posts and - yep - the emotional environment wasn't good either.

I do worry about when she's here and we're sharing a bed - but that's only for a few hours because I'm fast asleep when she gets in and visa-versa when I get up. And at 56 I like to think that my head isn't directly attached to my gonads not that I have any expectation of them getting warmed up.

You are totally right...I disgree that it is all your fault and responsibility. You need to work on this in counseling, Andrew, seriously. This is NOT a healthy attitude. S is not a child and you did not kidnap her or force her to move in and have a relationship with you. She was a willing participant

This was the biggest hurdle I had to overcome in this. Knowing that financially she'll be fine in the medium term helps a lot. S has made sure that I know that she'll face hardship upon leaving and how traumatic it will be for the boys. I expect that her kids won't be looking too kindly on having to move her yet again either.

I had a look at available apartments etc in the places where she could be moving to and there are some decent options that are within spitting distance of what she was paying before. And if she pays off that loan then she will be much further ahead because before she was paying not only rent but also car payments every 2 weeks, credit card payments and money to her former partner. (the payment on the loan that got rid of those is less).

But, Andrew, at what point are you going to open your eyes and realize that YOU were the only one giving it your best shot? I don't doubt that S had love for you, but I highly doubt that she was completely altruistic in her motivation to pursue and snag you. She saw you as a stable provider and learned quickly that she could manipulate you to get her way and what she wanted so you were a great mark for her. I also don't doubt that now that you have delivered your message that you will hear some unsavory things about yourself around town, just like she did with previous relationships. She will paint herself as the victim and you as the villain. Don't go along with her and paint yourself as the villain too. You are NOT the villain!

Yep - I do accept my part in this but I do certainly agree that she didn't step up as much and in the ways that I needed her to. I expected a partner, a team player, a supportive cheer-leader who would add to my life. I was already busy enough with housework and such - I didn't need to end up being staff. I'm sure she would have been happy if I didn't do what I did do, but there's no way I could live the way that I saw in her apartment. I foolishly hoped that a fresh environment and a fresh start would mean that she could maintain it. I saw the state of her apartment as an overwhelming obstacle to her with her kids sabotaging her.

Like the others said, do NOT offer her storage space or you will never be shed of her and do NOT leave a bunch of money at her access, even if you did caution her you'd be watching it. Are you familiar with that phrase about the fox guarding the hen house?????

I hope she'll get the stuff sooner rather than later but spring is the most likely scenario. She won't part with any of it including the furniture I'm sure and will need to rent a storage space. Her access to cash is presently limited though. And it's only been a couple of days so she's had little time to figure things out. I expect her to have a more solid plan when she comes home perhaps this weekend or early next week.

I feel for her s18, but a part of me disagrees with what others have said about allowing him to stay on even after she goes.

This would only be a very temporary measure - the truth of the matter is that while he's a decent kid, he's not my kid. He also has a boat-load of issues that I don't want to have any responsibility for. The fact that he's doing better without his mother around notwithstanding. He's even pooping better now that he's eating much less pre-packaged food. TMI I'm sure - I asked though how his "digestion" is doing as he has commented on how he's trying harder to eat healthy - something I've pestered and joked at him about.

To me it's horrible how those kids had been fed. Easier to feed them what they ask for and will eat but heck, they liked when I cooked and ate that up without complaint. It was a surprise that S really does hate cooking and while she goes on about being a "baker" - that's more talk than action too.

You deserve so much better!

I just want to find me again.

-------

Since I'm rambling on here right now anyway, some might remember my active dislike for her D19's boyfriend. A person I describe as a "taker". S was perfectly fine with him living under her roof, eating her food, banging her daughter (yep). He had - so I was told - an overly protective mother - who for some reason never visited nor in anyway contributed to his upkeep. I thought that S was being taken advantage of and called her out on it multiple times. It was only well after she moved in here and that I saw how accepting she was of not doing anything and having everyone else do it for her that I realized that she was fine with that behaviour because it was normalized for her.

I have a prior experience with a "taker" under my roof and it was not fun. My son had a friend who "was having trouble at home" and so he offered to share his room. The kid moved right in, didn't contribute in any way and had no plans on how to turn things around and it turned out, got along fine with his Mom who seemed to be happy he was here. I ended up putting my foot down and told my son that his friend either needed to get help to start a life on his own or get out. The kid got out, moved home with his mother and they started a business together A few years later he was dating 20S, treating her like staff and gave her an STD because he was screwing around.

The kid just gave me that same creepy vibe that the boyfriend does. Didn't interact with anyone else in the house, hid away all the time, just takes things and uses them without considering that they might be someone else's. S doesn't have the same vibe though.

I've talked about my Dad lots and how he was taken advantage of - that is one of the things that has pushed me along too. I know his story well and saw what it did to him. He was a deeply unhappy man towards the end but was unable to break the cycle. I see a lot of him in me including parts I quite like. But having seen this from the outside allows me better to recognize it from the inside.

As an aside - and something I need to watch out for is that FSL - who is back to work full time now - is "very" interested in what is going on with my life. She's noticed me being grumpy and that S isn't around. Certainly not something to get tangled up in and she is I believe in a relationship although she's been vague about that the last few times the topic has come up.

Just got off the phone with the couples counselor we saw and she had some names for me to reach out to for counseling. We also chatted briefly about S's hoarding and other issues. I also mentioned B and how S was seemingly waiting for me to be available and hustled things along and how I needed help to not be rail-roaded again. I joked that there was a shortage of responsible middle-aged men and she laughed and said that I was a "catch". She also asked about my homework and I think I was doing it right as she was indeed trying to get me to see who I truly am at the core.

Well - back to things. Left-over meatloaf for dinner. I never sent S the usual "good morning", "lunch time - how's your day" messages and don't plan on sending a good-night. I've not heard anything from her either.

[kml]

And if she pays off that loan then she will be much further ahead

Oh Andrew - such an optimist! I truly hope she does, but sincerely doubt she will. This, after all, is a woman who couldn't understand why you would pay off your credit cards every month versus just making the minimum payment.

[kml]

Criteria for new woman:
1) Must like cats
- very pet friendly as long as she doesn't have to do anything to take care of them
2) Must be fiscally responsible and hopefully self-sufficient
- plucky single mom making do who had a part-time job and various side-hustles. An "entrepreneur"
3) Good in bed
- and enthusiastic aaannndd then kids and back pain blah de blah de blah
4) Kind
- An "every-Mom" who took care of others and took in kids who were struggling.
5) Reasonably tidy (asking for someone on your level there may be too much)
- Tidy in dress and I put down the mess originally to kids sabotaging her. I did notice her van was very messy (didn't realize "how" messy for a while but put that down to kids too.
6) Interested in ideas and the world
- Seemed to be although I am an economics, politics and history nerd so I don't judge
Originally Posted by job
I have one more to add to kml's list: Self starter and can follow through on what you say you will do.
- plucky single mom

I can see how you were misled/misinterpreted what you saw. This is the reason for taking it slow in terms of entanglement - it can take a while to find out the truth of someone you are dating.

CMM initially looked like a guy who cared about his daughters and had been burned in his divorce. He had their photos with him on his dresser, and told me many stories about his life as an involved dad when they were kids. While not completely wrong, it turns out his relationship with his daughters is so rocky that they don't speak to him. And he no longer makes any effort to reconcile with them. If I had simply been dating him and he hadn't developed cancer, I would have learned these things about him maybe 6-9 months in - and probably would have been at least enough put off that I wouldn't have chosen to live with him (not that I would have anyway most likely if he hadn't developed cancer, as I think I really prefer living on my own and just dating someone who has their own place). What I THOUGHT he was as a dad and what the TRUTH is are two very different things - and those kinds of things just take time to discover.

[AndrewP]

Found an Italian emojii for bttrfly

ლ(´ڡ`ლ)

Snowy, blowy day here today. The guys at the plant are doing some clean-up of construction waste today so they won't be too happy about that. The disposal company is by tomorrow morning. I've also run out of regular drums at the plant. I thought I had lots but 3 big orders came through and suddenly there are none. I have a reserve supply so can handle any emergency orders. Order have really dried up in the last few weeks though. We had zero bulk loads out of the section of the plant that I do the planning for last week and other orders are a lot less frequent beyond those couple of bigger specific ones. My drum order should be in late Thursday - we'll take the opportunity we have to do some maintenance and cleaning.

Still coming to terms with things and processing so if you're reading, you're stuck with that. I know that with time that the feeling of the surreal will fade. As I'm sure that most here realize, I process things by writing. It's what works for my brain so I'll probably burn through this fairly quickly too. As a certified "fixer" I have to look at things from all angles many many times before being satisfied especially if the item in question cannot be fixed.

I participate on another forum and they have also been very supportive of me and negative about S. I have to own that. The only information that anyone has gotten has come from me and I am obviously biased. Which I am upset about. I like to think that I'm generally a positive person and try to see the best in people. I know that I always tried to notice compliment the incremental improvements S was able to achieve and not notice when it slid the other way.

I still find it odd how S just accepted the fact that it's not working and never seemed to try to dig into the "why". She has shelves and shelves of relationship books so presumably this is a topic on which she is well informed. One thing I've gotten from her though and I recall my ex-wife having a similar attitude is that once I express myself on a topic that there's no further discussion possible which I'd like to believe isn't true. With S I said something lie "I can't see how we can get to the other side" - which to me is an invitation to help me look. Too late now though - the die is cast. I think it boils down to the need to make a sustained effort and to empathize. Beyond the superficial I really wanted to feel that we were "in this together" and both take ownership of making this a happy home and life. I think only the superficial was recognized and it was beyond S to deal with. Too much baggage on both sides perhaps getting in the way.

One thing that Westo said a while ago - I hunted it down - has really really stuck with me as how things "should" work.

Andrew....

I’m not S and she isn’t me, but I can honesty that if I was in a new relationship (and it’s still new) I’d try be the dream partner.

Your place would be spotless, the sex would be frequent (as it’s still new and fresh, for now ;)). I wouldn’t spend my time on the phone, I’d go to bed the same time as you and I’d want to get up early to potter about my new home.....making it mine.

In my experience, and I’m only talking about me.....if you are getting nooky once a fortnight a year into your relationship, you’ll be lucky to get it on your birthday once the ring is on her finger.

I know we’re not teenagers here with raging hormones, but come on.

You guys are not compatible. No amount of council will change that frown

I have noticed that S18 - who presumably knows nothing - while he's doing better over-all I think, the disgust and anger at his mother is pretty palpable. She was supposed to contact him every day to remind him to take care of his brother's hamster - nothing. I think that he has a lot of deep issues that will undoubtedly affect him for the rest of his life. I'm assuming he knows nothing about what is going on although he and I have talked and he knows that I'm unhappy with the state of the house and his mother's house-keeping skills so it may well not be any sort of surprise. He really would prefer to be living somewhere other than with his mother I know. When she was doing her "just dating" / reconciliation with her former partner he was essentially living on his own at the apartment for I think about 4 months according to passing comments he's made. He would have been 16. I do hope that he's not too hard on her when he finds out but he will be and there's nothing I can do about that.

As suggested I've been doing some reading and thinking about stress and coping mechanisms using some resources suggested by a friend (waves). Qi Gong which is a form of Tai Chi might be something to try. I was listening to the description of how it works and the fact that it can help channel healing energies really appeals. I know that doing something "mindless" and purely physical is good for my mental health. Ironing used to be that. It requires care and attention but not "thinking" if that makes sense. Following a structured set of movements may well be good for me. S has lots and lots of books and CDs on tai chi but I may follow my own path. I've never seen her do any sort of breathing exercise or movement which I know her son-in-law who is a massage therapist has suggested as being good for her back.

On there was a set of questionnaires - which I'm working through. This one on trust that I took just before going to sleep I think has hit the nail directly on the head.

Do You Have Problems With Trust?
********************************

Trust/Distrust

Score: 28/100

Trust/Distrust measures the degree that you trust or distrust others and their motives.

Your score indicates that you tend to have a great deal of trust in others. You tend to believe what others tell you and believe that they are likely to treat you well. You generally believe that others' motives are beneficial, for the common good, and that most people have the best interests of others at heart. You don't tend to look for hidden agendas in others.

Your ability to trust can lead to positive and genuine relationships with other people. However, naively trusting others can lead to problems in your life as well. Some people prey on those who are too trusting. Unfortunately, they are able to identify people who don't use discretion in their trust but instead tend to trust most anyone and they take advantage of those people.

Sometimes you may not want to see the signs of untrustworthy behavior in others. However, by denying or avoiding that information you are more likely to become involved in relationships where others can take advantage of you.

If this is the case for you, you may need to learn to be more discriminate when trusting others. By recognizing that not all people are trustworthy, you can begin to determine the difference. People who trust too easily often rely on what someone tells them rather than making a more objective determination. Observe behavior and don't just rely on what others tell you. Is their behavior consistent with their words? How do they treat you? How do they treat others? What does their behavior tell you about whether they are trustworthy? Such observation and willingness to see the truth about others' behavior will allow you to discriminate and determine who is truly trustworthy. As result, you are less likely to become involved in unhealthy relationships.

News has been getting out. I told 20S who I think of as a friend. She was supportive - dealing with a lot of her own issue with the sort of limited results she usually has. She is more than a bit of a train-wreck but is a nice kid. She's upset at S26 who hasn't returned any of her calls for months. S26 has said that he's not really interested in hearing from her - I just told her that he doesn't return anyone's calls including mine which is true.

My youngest brother texted me this morning having been told by his wife (he doesn't "do" computers). We chatted a bit and he suggested that he bring his big dump trailer in the spring which will probably be needed. I'll give S a bit of lee-way but also a hard deadline. Anything left after that time I can deal with as I see fit. She'll struggle with that I know.

I've not heard from S since she left. While I do have that "itch" there's really nothing I have to say nor really to share. She has her own plate over-full I'm sure. Her daughter is going in for an ostomy tomorrow to try to figure out if she is celiac or not so there will be pooping going on. Her daughter and BF still have no jobs and aren't seeming to care about that. They spent several days at S's Dad's house but it seems that the WiFi is too slow for their gaming - they are trying to become internet gamer celebrity types. Who knows - it may work. D19 is very pretty. I know nothing about how that works but it does appear to be a "thing". They'll be there for the next few days so S will have those two, S13 and 2 dogs. S I think was annoyed that I pushed her to take her dog with her as it loves barking at the squirrels in the back garden. The dog is cute and loving but is quite a lot of work which is why I never had any urge to have one. My ex-wife had a Pomeranian who was pretty fat and low maintenance especially in comparison. And certainly, absolutely never ever ever got to sleep on the bed.

Enough for now I suppose.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯