Courage

[Ginger1]

Wow Andrew. That was really though to read. She took almost no accountability and then had the nerve to say you need to do all this work in YOUR house which she lives in for free while she pretty much trashed it? That’s really low. And there is no one who doesn’t know that carry zero balances on your credit cards is the RIGHT choice if it is an option. My credit car debt makes me batty and I would do anything to have zero because of the interest charges!

She is a gas lighter through and through.

Why should you change being the man who has pride in his house or providing for the community!? Why should you change those positives?

What do you feel was gained from this session?

And why did you actually ask what you could do to just “suck it up”?

Love yourself more, Andrew. Respect yourself more.

[kml]

And I'll say I don't fully understand the point of the exercise the therapist gave you. Is it to try to understand what's most important to you besides the material??? I mean, you're hardly a material person anyway. You're sensible and a bit frugal - you like to take care of your things and budget and plan for expenses, which is prudent at your age and your financial state. You're not the least bit interested in keeping up with the Joneses or owning flashy expensive things - which I agree with.

Again - the main points?

Hoarder - with no insight or likely ability to change.

Financially irresponsible - again, unlikely to change at this age, and she doesn't strike me as someone who will be willing to just hand all the money over to you to manage. And notice she had nothing but excuses for her not working.

Disrespectful - not willing, actually, to take responsibility for anything. I didn't hear anything in your description of the visit of her acknowledging how lucky she is that you took her and her kids in and are pretty much supporting them. Did she thank you for that?

The good news here is that her father's unfortunate demise has given her the financial resources to move out so you don't have to feel guilty - they won't be homeless or penniless. She can find another sucker or maybe even get a job. That's her future and not yours to worry about.

Don't let this drag on too long. You're giving her a chance - and your willingness to look at your own issues speaks well of you. I think the issue you need to focus on though is not your "homework" (like I said, I seem to be missing the point of that, maybe the therapist can clarify it a bit?) but whatever childhood issues have led to you having such poor boundaries and being so willing to let someone like her walk all over you.

[Dawn70]

I agree with kml...I'm not sure what the point of the homework is, particularly if S has been given homework that she can't or won't actually give the good ole college try to complete. She's proven over and over again she isn't willing to so I'm not sure why the therapist giving as homework is going to change that. I read through again and the other thing that stuck out to me this time around, like job pointed out, is if she is in such desperate need of her own space, why doesn't she clean one up? I mean, it isn't like she's lived there for years AND she does NOT work, so why the need for all this space with a desk and such. What "papers" is she having to carry from room to room to work on? I mean, I understand the need for a private space, especially in a chaotic house with teenagers and pets, but it is almost like she is suggesting that she deserves a work space in your house when she isn't working and then being angry at you because you do have a space and are working. That little exchange screamed entitlement to me.

I have to say this....I'm a crier. I always have been. I cry when I'm sad, but also if I'm REALLY p!ssed. If we are arguing and you see tears, you should probably move far the h3ll away from me quickly. I am pretty tender hearted and I do get my feelings hurt easily too, but I am really good at masking that. Really the only time that I have a hard time masking the tears is when I'm just about to blow angry or I'm so frustrated I can't see straight. I would never do it to manipulate someone and honestly can't even make myself cry just for the sake of having tears. I have to be legitimately bothered to get there. You pointed out several examples of times during the therapy session when S turned on the waterworks. Now, since I am a crier, I totally understand that it happens at very inopportune times sometimes. Sparky and I were having a heated discussion about something not long ago and I felt the tears coming, so I quickly excused myself and told him I needed a minute and went in the other room to get myself in check. I did not want to cry and have him think I was using that to get to him when that wasn't what was happening at all. In your examples, though, S seems to be able to use it to her advantage and that worries me. It worries me for you, because I fear that you will get your head on straight and get the gumption to get her out, then she'll start with the woe is me and tears and you'll give in. You can't let her do that, though, you have admitted she has done it before. I think that speaks to G's point that she is a gaslighter.

[kml]

On re-reading your homework assignment, I wonder if it isn't a poorly framed attempt to get you to see what you would like to do for YOU, outside of working on the house and taking care of other people? Maybe it would be easier to envision if you imagined living alone and having all your house repairs finished. Would you travel? Take up a hobby like photography? What would you like to be doing more of for YOU?

Also then, maybe try to see how a normal partner might enhance that life rather than interfere with it. Imagine someone who could help you with the repairs or at least keep the rest of the house in order so that you had time for it? Someone whose financial contribution to living expenses made travel a reachable goal for the two of you? Someone who actually had an INTEREST in the larger world and enthusiasm for traveling and going to museums etc.?

[kml]

Also - watch for ACTIONS. Not words. See what you come home to tonight.

[LH19]

Look Andy if the border was open I’d come help you fix up your place. After all I wouldn’t want S and her brood to live in a hole in the wall.

[kml]

I agree with Dawn, btw - I suspect her crying is less about romantic loss and more a reflex strategy that in the past has helped her to get her way.

Honestly, if I was really in love with a guy and he had all these specific concerns, I'd be busting my butt to try to do better. But I suspect she'll just be mad that you aren't "responding" to her manipulations the way she'd hoped. As a hoarder, giving up any of her stuff is not something she's willing to do. That addiction is more important to her than her relationships . Or at least more powerful.

[AndrewP]

Sounds like a lot of territory was covered in the first session. You both have homework to think about and come up with info for the next meeting. I do not think S will follow through with Fly Lady. It's too much of a way of life that she's not willing to do, i.e., bring one item home and get rid of one.

My then-wife turned me on to Fly Lady. It took her quite a long time to do more than have it be aspirational and become inspirational. The setting of small achievable goals was the part that worked best for her. And for me, having that one thing I can point to with pride such as a well shined sink helps a lot on those bad days. Marie Kondo had a lot of good insights I feel into how to think about possessions. Does it spark joy. Is your life better for having this object in it.

I may be wrong in this...but S has a lot to mull over and she'll be doing a lot of that in the days to come and especially when she's at her father's place. I may be wrong, but I do not think S is going to be willing to do the hard, necessary work to make this living arrangement work. I think S is going to move out in the next 6-9 months. She's not happy w/your house, not happy about being accountable for cleaning up and going through her stuff and not happy because she's coming to realize that she can't manipulate you. She's realizing now that you are more aware of what she's got going on in the way of hoarding, etc.

Also, do not let her being a bit moody/distant get to you. She's acting like a very spoiled person at the moment and she's not happy that she's not getting her way. Just leave her be and go about your business. She'll either get over it or she'll move out.

For me - the whole DB acting "as if" thing is where I am. She commented a couple of weeks ago that I'm the first partner she's ever had who seemed to be blasé about if she was here or not.

As far as the house goes, there's a lot that I know she's not happy about here. The fact that it was "mine" before bothers her as does anything related to my ex-wife. She really hates that it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter, , there's too much sunshine in the front rooms, that there's not nearly enough storage inside or outside etc etc etc. As bad as it sounds, I've found that if she demands something that is irreversible such as when she insisted that the pegs for hanging towels in the upstairs bathroom be sawn off, I just ignore her. She did in the first while demand that my book-case in that same bathroom be emptied which I did. And now there's little to read there and an empty book-case. She wants to take away without offering anything in it's place - something that I think describes a lot beyond this.

My impression is that she's thinking quite hard right now. As people here have cudgeled me on - I need to stay the course. Need to be honest. No pretending that things are all happy.

What I'm "hoping" for is that she has compassion and can see the damage that she is causing and will take appropriate steps to remedy that. I hate to say it, but in many ways she is like my ex-wife who was the master of the "sorry-not sorry". So I'm expecting some token short term efforts. I believe she's actually making dinner tonight instead of pushing for us to order take-out.

She says that she doesn't want to be in a relationship with someone who is only there because they made a promise or out of duty. The reality? I really don't know. Part of where I'm stuck is that I fully believe that it takes two people to make a relationship work. That it's a partnership. Ending it shouldn't be done unilaterally either. Giving the other person a chance to examine what's not working and then mutually deciding that this can be fixed or not fixed is the more honest way in my mind and one that I am ethically more comfortable with.

It would be easier if there were no kids or so many possessions involved. And if the place where I am were somewhere I would be willing to leave.

4.) Did I completely miss the whole pot smoking thing before? I know I have a much squarer view of that than pretty much anyone else on the board, but to me hearing that kind of makes sense with her overall general lackadaisical attitude toward life.

It was something that I didn't know about for quite a while until she threw her back out in the early days and I had to take care of her here. The impression at the time was that it was medically prescribed and while I don't like the substance, nor the smell I can't honestly tell someone they can't take "medicine" - which is what she refers to it as. When the therapist asked her if it was prescribed she got all cagey and changed the subject and minimized her use of it. It is only a couple of times a week at the most and usually to relax her before she would be up for doing sexy time. Something that I'd commented on that if she needed to be stoned for that .... I was assured otherwise.

One of S's traits that bothers me is how she will conceal things that she thinks will bother other people. I didn't know she was an anti-vaxxer until just a few months ago when I was talking about wanting to make sure I got my flu vaccine right as soon as I could and found out that she doesn't get one nor support her kids in getting a shot either out of a belief that they do more harm than good.

Also - I know it is party of her DARVO response, but the GALL of her to complain about your rate of house repairs when so much of your time is going into cleaning up after her and her brood!!!

Yep. It's a pattern of attack and I saw it as such immediately. She knew what the house was like. I've been transparent about how money is prioritized into necessary repairs which on this house are pretty regular. The state of the house is more a function of a lack of funds than a lack of effort. Up until a couple of years before my divorce, money was always very tight and so only the necessary things were done. If it could wait, it did wait. I don't define myself by having a fancy house with all the latest conveniences. My pride and effort were put into taking care of what I had. And to me, the difference between "wanting what you have" vs "having what you want" is pretty important.

One way that I think I've grown in is that I didn't feel any need to defend. It's factual. There's a favourite cartoon short from the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show that I've actually shared with S before. The fisherman, his wife and their "shabby but neat" life. "Be content with what you have - or - it takes more than wishes to do the dishes". It describes my attitude towards a lot of things quite well.

On re-reading your homework assignment, I wonder if it isn't a poorly framed attempt to get you to see what you would like to do for YOU, outside of working on the house and taking care of other people? Maybe it would be easier to envision if you imagined living alone and having all your house repairs finished. Would you travel? Take up a hobby like photography? What would you like to be doing more of for YOU?

I have this pretty much figured out and have for years as my retirement goals. Even before my divorce. Volunteer work in the community. There's at least one charity that I used to sit on the board of directors for that would love to have me back. Lots of chances for a guy who is handy with a screwdriver, keyboard and calculator to make a difference. I plan that in retirement that I'll be busier than I am now and loving it. This is where the concept that I would be unable to contribute and make things better outside of myself is just so incomprehensible.

Also then, maybe try to see how a normal partner might enhance that life rather than interfere with it.

Cats. Lots and lots of cats (and by that I would mean maybe 2). People are too much trouble.

Someone who actually had an INTEREST in the larger world and enthusiasm for traveling and going to museums etc.?

I think that if someone says they are interested in going for long walks or to museums that they will need to show me ticket stubs first before I will believe them

Oh - and I missed one of the key things in S's homework. "Write out Andrew's inner truth". Can she actually see me as I am, or as she wants me to be? The counselor was pushing for S to use her ability to do psychic readings on me.

PS - S mentioned to me today that she has some money "set aside" for "bills related to her Dad's place" and that she might be able to contribute more to the household budget if she gets his banking sorted out. Sigh.

[Dawn70]

PS - S mentioned to me today that she has some money "set aside" for "bills related to her Dad's place" and that she might be able to contribute more to the household budget if she gets his banking sorted out. Sigh.

Do y'all have this saying up north, Andrew: "the proof is in the pudding". Sometimes I take sayings that I assume are common and realize that they are very Southern indeed and people just think I'm nuts. My point here, as we have all said MANY times, actions speak louder than words. She can SAY it all she wants, but until she forks over money, then it is just empty promise.

[kml]

As far as the house goes, there's a lot that I know she's not happy about here. The fact that it was "mine" before bothers her as does anything related to my ex-wife. She really hates that it's hot in the summer and cold in the winter, , there's too much sunshine in the front rooms, that there's not nearly enough storage inside or outside etc etc etc.

The phrase "beggars can't be choosers" comes to mind!!! The fact that she aspires to a fancier lifestyle while doing nothing whatsoever herself to earn money speaks to an incredibly entitled mind. Now, if she really didn't like the house and was earning enough income herself that your combined incomes could comfortably pay for a more comfortable home - or to remodel your home - that's be one thing. But her expecting you to foot rather large remodeling bills - or a larger new mortgage- without any contribution towards that on her part seems pretty cheeky. (Granted, there are women out there whose whole life operates on the premise that men should be "daddy" and take care of them in the manner to which they would like to be accustomed. Most of those women though at least bring fake boobs and bleached hair and short skirts as their end of the bargain lol).

Also - NO place will ever have enough storage for a hoarder. She simply cannot see the link between all the junk that she brought with her and the current "lack" of storage. She wants enough storage to be able to keep every single thing AND bring all her father's things AND keep buying things.