Is she a conscious predator? I don't know that and I'm not sure any of us here can tell that from afar. She could just be a needy and well-meaning mentally ill person with a severe hoarding problem.
AS for her grieving - we haven't heard from you about that, just her glee at being able to let her dog on her father's couch. If we've misinterpreted her response to her father's death, I'm sorry. (On the other hand, if you're PROJECTING what YOUR response to a parent's death would be ONTO her, take a close look at her ACTIONS to see if that's an appropriate assumption).
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On top of that the man she found. The decent guy that she'd been searching for and had given up on existing,........ is now showing he's no different than all the others and is talking about throwing her out on the street.
Wrong narrative. Try this one: "That decent guy that she had found who was willing to rescue her and make it so that she didn't have to actually work for a living like most people do, is now fed up like her former beaus with her hoarding, laziness and extremely poor housekeeping skills."
Look, nobody is saying throw her out in the snow right now. But we ARE saying it's not appropriate to put her in your will with your house and car so early into a relationship, and especially now that she has an inheritance coming that would mean she wouldn't be homeless if you died, your house should go back to your children in your will.
You have sympathy for her brother forcing her to sell her childhood home, but none for your children seeing THEIR childhood home being sold to benefit the woman they warned you against dating? Can you imagine also the fight S might put up and the legal problems she might cause your children? It is likely better, if you want to include her in your will, to give her a small cash amount that is designated as her sole inheritance - check with a lawyer, but might be some help against her contesting the will, in that it shows your express intent regarding her.
Is she a conscious predator? I don't know that and I'm not sure any of us here can tell that from afar.
Definition of predator 1: one who controls or exploits others for personal gain or profit So in the first six months of dating while still married she gets him to propose, move in his house, get in his will while living relatively rent and chore free. I could go on but it's not worth my time and doesn't really matter.
If not then I guess I don't understand the definition.
You have been given very wise and sage advice. Why in the world would you put her in your will at this time? She is not your wife, but another man's wife at this time. She is not relation to you but a "live in" and doesn't even measure up to being an equal partner in the upkeep of your home or sharing in expenses all that often. Your estate should be addressed as that of your children. You are wise in having someone outside your immediate family to handle the estate so that there are no hard feelings between your two children. As for S....please, please, do not include her in your will for your home or belongings. After all, she has her engagement ring and she can sell that down the road and not feel guilty about it. Actually, I do wonder what an attorney would advise you to do since she's still legally married to another man and no divorce papers on the docket to be processed. I would be interested in knowing the answer to that one. For all we know, she may decide to move out sometime in the near future and yes, still not be divorced.
As for her father's estate, I hope that she's allowing her brother to have input for the memorial service as well as listening to his input when it comes to settling up the estate. After all, she is not alone in making all of the important decisions in this situation. If she doesn't want to sell the her father's home, she can buy her brother out of his "share" of the family home. As for the will...it's going to be interesting as to how that plays out. I do feel for her during this time because there is an awful lot to take care of....but....her brother does know how she is and he knows that he needs to apply some much needed pressure to keep her on track and get things done.
It still doesn't change the fact that your home is not the way you want it and you have boxes all over the place and things have not been addressed to the hoarding and/or unpacking, etc., and let's not forget that you have become Mr. Money Bags too. Are you going to be patient 6 months from now about all of this mess just because she may still be grieving over the loss of her father? I hope that I am wrong and that she gets her sh!t together, but I don't see it happening. I see more furniture and other items coming your way. You will need to put a sign out front that your home is now Andrew's self storage facility.
I hope your health improves, but I can see where things will only escalate and your anxiety level and blood pressure will be going up. Something has to give in your situation.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I'm starting with a hug because I think you need one. And, if you don't need one, well I need one for you, so there you go.
Now, I'm going to try and be gentle here, but I agree with what most of the others are saying. You've gotten some great advice from some far more knowledgeable folks than me regarding the will and such, so I'm just going to say I agree with all those folks. There is no reason to leave her the house. Even if y'all do work through everything and stay together, when something happens to you, she will be alright and can find a place to go. You need to focus on your kids, even if you think they won't want the house.
I said this to you privately, but I'll say it here, too. I'm so very sorry that S lost her dad. That [censored] for anyone. And, I'm sorry that you lost him too. I know you were not terribly close to him, but when your partner grieves, you grieve and I'm sorry you are both experiencing that. Sparky lost his dad just as we were beginning to open up and get to know each other and 2 years later, I'm still helping him deal with it. Sometimes, he doesn't think much about it, but some days it is VERY prevalent in everything he says and does and it is hard to watch, so I know you feel a burden in all of this and I'm so very sorry for you. I keep reminding you what a kind, loving, gentle, genuine soul that you are BECAUSE YOU ARE! You don't want to hurt anyone for any reason and you keep likening yourself to your own dad who "gave lots of chances". You said something in your post that really jumped out at me and I want to focus on that.
Originally Posted by AndrewP
On top of that the man she found. The decent guy that she'd been searching for and had given up on existing,........ is now showing he's no different than all the others and is talking about throwing her out on the street.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Andrew! Just no! You really need to reexamine that. You ARE a decent guy. You are NOT talking about throwing her out in the street. Listen, man, you are going to make the choice that is right for you, or more accurately, you are going to make the decision that is right for S out of fear of losing her and hurting her, but I'm sorry to be mean, but this is just dead-a$$ wrong. You are a decent guy who has given her love, a home, money and everything she could possibly want and despite your discomfort, you are continuing to allow her to stay on. What she SHOULD be learning from that is that not all men are the same and that there are some truly genuine good men out there. What she shouldn't be learning is that when you find one of those men that you should use him for whatever you can get until something better comes along. I have asked this before and I still don't expect you to actually give me an answer, but I do REALLY want you to think about it...…..at what point do you and everyone else around S stop making excuses for her and start seeing that maybe she is part of the problem rather than all those other men just being horrible? Seriously...………..it kind of goes back to what bttrfly said above...there is ONE common thread through S's entire story...think about what that is.
You tell us to give her some slack as she just lost her dad. Andrew, as job said above, no one is suggesting that you box up and fling her stuff out in the yard today while she's gone to her dad's and change the locks so she can't get back in. In fact, no one is even suggesting that you tell her today she has to get out. What everyone IS saying is that you need to be planning your exit strategy and really be thinking about it. I'm sure she's grieving her father, but if you keep using that as an excuse, she is eventually going to pick up on that being an excuse and start to use it herself, then here we'll be 3 years down the road having these same posts where you can't bring yourself to ask her to move out because you caught her crying about something about her dad.
As far as her being a predator, I feel like you addressed that yourself in another thread. You said she basically stalked you until you asked her out, despite your children warning you not to go out with her, and now, moving forward, according to your own posts, every time things have gotten difficult (marriage talk, moving in, now breaking up and moving out), she has pressured you and gotten angry when things didn't go her way. I'm sorry, but I'm with LH...if those aren't predatory actions, apparently I don't really know what that word means.
Andrew, I am not trying to speak for everyone, but I think most would agree with me that we are not intentionally being hard on S just to get under your skin. We are trying to show you that we care about you and want to help you get out of a situation that is just absolutely not good for you. I said before and I will say again, something has to give Andrew...something other than you because you seem to be the only (or thing) giving at all in your scenarios.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
Originally Posted by kml Is she a conscious predator? I don't know that and I'm not sure any of us here can tell that from afar.
Definition of predator 1: one who controls or exploits others for personal gain or profit So in the first six months of dating while still married she gets him to propose, move in his house, get in his will while living relatively rent and chore free. I could go on but it's not worth my time and doesn't really matter.
If not then I guess I don't understand the definition.
LH19 - I said "conscious" predator, as in premeditated, versus needy and not self-aware, clinging to a lifeboat. Could be either - none of us knows enough from a distance to be sure. The end result is pretty much the same though. It's one thing to take on a damsel in distress who cannot work but who can make things comfy and cozy at home and contributes in that way. It's another to take on a damsel in distress who turns out to be a difficult person who takes no responsibility for improving her health, is not sufficiently grateful to try to follow the budget that is making it possible for her to live there without getting a job, and contributes almost nothing to your homelife of value.
way too much focus here on S. focus needs to shift squarely onto Andrew. JMHO. So, Andrew, what are you getting out of this? Obviously you're getting something or you wouldn't allow it to continue. What's YOUR pattern here in sticking with a situation which obviously makes you miserable? You may think you're being kind to S, but you aren't. In fact, it's almost more cruel to lead her on this way, thinking there may be hope. You're keeping her in limbo, because she can't make decisions which could benefit her greatly if she knew how you really feel (sell or keep couch is only a small example).
There is nothing that says you have to say get out today. You can say this isn't going to work long term and I don't want to be married, factor that in as you settle things with your dad's estate. I will be here to support you through that as your friend but not as your romantic partner.
If you had told her how you really felt the day after thanksgiving, where would you be now? where would she be?
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
way too much focus here on S. focus needs to shift squarely onto Andrew. JMHO. So, Andrew, what are you getting out of this? Obviously you're getting something or you wouldn't allow it to continue.
I was thinking about this question earlier this morning even before reading your question while looking for the dog-doo in the back yard (looks a lot like leaves), finding it in the living room, and having her cats trying to trip me going down-cellar for their food.
To be frank I think you put your finger on the key important issue here. Which has been pointed out to me over and over again here and elsewhere but I'm a slow learner and rather stubborn.
The reason why I got engaged and the key thing that S said she wanted to bring to me was to reduce the stress and work that I had and to use her differences to add more joy to my world and to give me a different perspective on things. I saw her as a spiritual person with a wacky / quirky manner and a lot of hidden depths and a kind heart that would be a contrast to my button-down bow-tie Felix Unger self. For those who have taken the time to get to know me I do also have a wacky / quirky side myself. Even though sometimes it felt empty and lonely I was generally a pretty happy and content guy on my own (my son was a ghost who I rarely saw).
It hasn't worked out that way from at least my point of view. I don't know how much thought S herself has given to this but I do know she was very upset when I said that "I'm not afraid of hard work" saying that she wanted to be a bright and happy spot for me and not "work".
I've been unable to find those hidden depths and much of what I thought was "her" spirituality was actually perhaps her mother's. I've asked her for about a year now to help clear out the house of bad karma using smudging or other appropriate techniques and nada. She's also had people ask her to do readings and other things and again it doesn't happen.
My ex-wife was a capable and hard worker for her her employer. She was a decent cook when she put her mind to it and an active volunteer in the community. Things I had a lot of pride in as being associated with her.
With B - she was busy and loving with her family and grand-kids. Worked hard at her job which gave her a lot of satisfaction. A fabulous baker who made really nice breads and pies. She was loud, brash and constantly talking. Her family, especially her mother accepted me in while still keeping my own identity. Again, someone who I was proud to have on my arm.
In S's daily life other than vague awareness of the phases of the moon and lots of supplies all over the house, I don't see that "earth goddess" that was my original perception of her. I see - I hate to say it - a worse version of my ex-wife. Someone who is happy with others doing the various chores and is ok if they don't get done. Who is wrapped up with their phone and mindless TV programs and who has no apparent "depth" to their thinking or life despite being reasonably well informed. She doesn't seek out new experiences, spend time in nature or spend time thinking about healthy lifestyles either physically or emotionally. I know that there's a lot of negative piled up there but that's because I don't see the positives I want to see. And I don't see things that I can honestly point to and say "this is a fabulous person - I'm so lucky".
Originally Posted by bttrfly
What's YOUR pattern here in sticking with a situation which obviously makes you miserable?
I know from my former marriage that one of the things that sustained me during the bad times that undoubtedly exist in any marriage was the fact that I'd made a promise.I think that this boils down to one key factor here in my personality. When I give my word I stick to it. And I'm stubborn about it. And it ties into pride.
I'm also a soft touch. Those who know me IRL may recall how I was ripped off in Madrid last year by a street hustler with an aggressively friendly manner. This sort of thing has happened before too. I get sucked in and am too "nice" to pull the plug even after it is obvious that I'm being taken advantage of which would require me to be rude and abrupt.
I also have a burning need to "do the right thing" and to do no harm. Heck, given the chance I will wrap a wasp up in a tissue and carefully take them outside (yes - I'm sure some are drawing parallels :P )
I still have Senor Don Quixote - Knight of The Rueful Countenance staring at me steadfastly on my desk. Reminding me that even when the world thinks that you are mad that it is how I myself view the world and my place in it that matters. But I need to learn that there are times that perceived madness clouds the truth that lies underneath it all. I'm doing better at that but not great.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
You may think you're being kind to S, but you aren't. In fact, it's almost more cruel to lead her on this way, thinking there may be hope.
I've still not completely convinced myself that there's no hope. I've had waves of the angry "I'm done" and times of the rational "I'm done" moments.
But making that arbitrary, unilateral choice is beyond me at present. Just like what kept me here and stuck for so very long even after my ex had built herself a new albeit secret life away from me. There were multiple times when I decided that I'd had enough and then either pulled myself back from the brink or was pulled back. Either by well-meaning people here or by miniscule crumbs - I even called them that - that I believed that my ex would drop.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
If you had told her how you really felt the day after thanksgiving, where would you be now? where would she be?
Part of that question pre-supposes my ability to act rationally based on the feeling that I had earlier in that day. Kind of the "so - how long have you been beating your dog" question.
For the sake of argument let's say that I'd found my testicular fortitude and stuck with it. S would have been very angry, hurt and shocked. Her kids would have rallied around her and she probably would be sleeping on her daughter's couch or at her Dad's place while she looked for an apartment. Raises a further possibility about her Dad's passing while doing yard-work that isn't a good idea to explore.
Her stuff would be here and possibly S18 for a few months or perhaps longer.
I don't think she would have taken the approach initially of trying to find what was wrong and trying to work on that. She, like my ex-wife, seem to have the take that when I say something definitively that there is no point in discussing it with me.
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This is really helpful to me for forming my thoughts and comments around this in preparation for our counseling session which S has now booked for this coming Tuesday evening.
Looking at the contributions that each makes. The way that we fight and discuss things. Asking perhaps the honest question of if this is something that will work for both of us longer term - that will be a tough one to come out of my mouth.
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Trying to catch up here. Crazy nutso work days not helped by my computer dieing on Wednesday morning. Fortunately I've wizzed on computers before so was able to be my own computer wiz.
Work is very positive though. I work with some really good people that seem to appreciate my hard work and contributions. I've always been someone who largely ignores job descriptions which having a really vague one helps. Because of the way the universe works these days I technically report to the CEO who has given me a 2 word job description "Help (insert name of president here)". Everyone is interpreting that very broadly.
I scanned some documents that came in the mail to S and her brother for the insurance buy-out. She's got an appointment with the bank on Monday and will be staying down there. Not sure when she'll be home if it will be Monday evening or Tuesday before our counseling appointment. My view of the relationship is warped right now by the fact that she's been here less in the last 3 weeks than pretty much any time since we started dating last fall. I send her a message in the morning and evening and often at lunch. I hear little back from her. I do my own thing around the house albeit constrained by needing to do the pet care, whatever S18 happens to need for rides and occasional food and the piles of stuff that I'm reluctant to try to organize on my own.
Thanks all for your support.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Fortunately I've wizzed on computers before so was able to be my own computer wiz.
Lol - apparent differences in American and Canadian slang - here that would mean you have peed on computers before.
As for S - that fact that even after being asked she hasn't bothered to smudge the house or do any readings tells you all you need to know about her so-called "spirituality".
In fact, pretty much everything you thought she would be did not turn out to be true. And look at the contrast between the phone contact you had when you were dating versus now. I would expect most women, apart from their partner dealing with the tragic death of a parent, would welcome the occasional text or call and would at the very least call you at bedtime just for support.
Imagine a future where you have a more functional partner - someone who can discuss ideas with you, contribute to the household in some way, travel with you - or maybe stay in her own home and date you on the weekends! Wouldn't your life be so much better? Sadly I think that's not possible with S because that's not who she is.
Sit back when you first get to the counseling session and let her go first. You may learn a lot from where she goes. Then speak up for yourself - you don't see this working and want to work towards an amicable separation.
Btw Andrew - you made a VOW to your wife, not a promise. Being engaged is NOT the same thing as being married and you should not treat it the same. This time is for you to LEARN exactly what you have, whether that person is actually compatible with you for a long term marriage. You've discovered she's not.
