Still Learning...

[Sage4]

Old thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2901647&page=1

Quick recap:

Fall 2019 discover H is having a full on EA, spent several months working on the R in MC, followed by a temporary separation, a reconciliation, and then H signs a year lease and moves out in August 2020. Terrible spewing/monstering/complete re-writing of history for months and months. My self-esteem and self-worth was devastated. I did a lot of things wrong and have only now begun to come out of my own fog.

At first I thought H was a WAH, but exploring MLC and understanding the depths of his depression and childhood issues and came to believe he is in MLC. He could be both. But I am not so concerned about that at the moment as I try to live each day and keep my attention on the long-term and not those micro-moments.

Four young children and a joint business. Neither of us have legally instigated D, although H talks as if it is a done deal and wants to begin discussions in the new year.

In the meantime, I am working on myself, focussing on my children and re-imagining my life moving forward. The best thing to happen to me in a year has been my recent discovery that I am slowly but surely detaching from H. I no longer feel at the mercy of his feelings; I am owning my side of the street and let H own his side. This process has been long and hard, but I am grateful for the lessons I am learning along the way.

[Sage4]

A few days ago, one of my children wanted to show H a picture on my phone. I was out of the room for a few minutes and when I came back, H was on my phone alone. I have nothing to hide, so it didn't really bother me much. But when I went to text some overseas friends in WhatsApp, I noticed that he had checked out my call log. (WhatsApp is his tool of choice for communicating secretly with EA, the only American person he uses this app with, although we both use it to communicate with family and friends abroad).

A few days later, I had a break from homeschooling and spent the day in a nearby city to get some long-awaited errands done (my first weekday to do so in 8 weeks). H had the kids, but when I got home he was visibly upset with me and based upon what he said, it was clear that he was questioning what I was *really* up to on my day away.

He questions whether or not I really loved him, based upon a healing exercise I did in the spring where I wrote down a list of where I wanted us to be in two years' time. (He snuck into my journal and read it without my knowledge). He believes I was writing that list for some future partner.

Is all of this common behavior? I honestly have zero interest in whom he is talking to or what he is up to right now. Why does he care?

[AlisonUK]

Hello Sage!

I thought you'd stopped posting. I didn't realise you had a thread going here until you popped up on my thread (and thank you for that).

What odd behaviour from your husband. How very very strange.

I can't say my H has done anything like this before, but we're all different. I think what's more important than what your husband is doing or why he is doing it is what your boundaries are, whether they are working for you or not, and if not, do they need tweaking?

I know if my H was sneaking around looking at my journal or looking at my phone I would be furious. I'd let him know in no uncertain terms was he to do it again.

Do you want suggestions in how to respond to his intrusive questions? H HAS done that kind of thing with me before. If he's insinuating something, I pretend not to understand. It is probably not the most mature way of going about things, but it leaves his feelings with him and not with me.

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

I do think most spouses do experience jealousy over their LBS; especially when they do not know what you are doing or where you are going. Their warped little minds spin and drag them off to thoughts of what you might be doing. Most times they expect their LBS to remain sitting in a shelf pining for them. Nope, not happening with Sage.

I love reading your realizations about detachment. You are so correct. Detachment starts as deflection, then we build walls, and then realize that detachment actually doesn’t have walls. Your post - very well done, and very well said!

Indifference is that numb feeling during our healing process. Quite different than detachment. I think you got a good handle on those walls as well.

Of course, it takes time. It’s funny when looking back, as you also stated, how quickly it all happened. And then realize the months and months to get here. It so obvious from this side, isn’t it? Yet, one cannot just get to this place without walking their path. It’s not obvious until it is.

I think right now I feel compassion and empathy for the broken human in front of me and at the same time I do not condone or forgive his behavior (yet? Will I ever? Do I need to? Hmmm....).

If you would like some advice from a friend.

Compassion, understanding, empathy - excellent.

Do I need to forgive? Short answer - Yes.

Forgiveness is for you.

Separate the sinner from the sin. The person from the behaviour. You forgive the person. That is quite freeing. And the concern over the behaviour more or less melts away. This all takes time.

This doesn’t mean we sweep the horrors and wrong doings under the rug. When, or if, a times comes we can deal with the behaviours and atonement then. And that is more them demonstrating they’ve healed and are working towards earning our trust again.

Forgiveness is us not holding a grudge, nor waiting or demanding restitution.

The idea of forgiveness seems astonishingly thin and weak when held next to the powerful feelings of vengeance and non-forgiveness. However, that thin cloak of light and grace is incredibly powerful. Forgiveness touch’s the divine.

Forgive those who trespass against me.

It’s not obvious until it is. Take it on faith for now. And realize you are worth forgiving H.

D

[wayfarer]

Hey my dear projecting is super normal. My bff's H would get just absolute crazy right about the time he would start approaching that line from friendship to EA. Now they got through one major PA and one major EA but they had been together since they were so, so young. I think learning to navigate that stuff in your early 20s is hard. I'd have to say there were exes and other female friends of friends that he might have gotten a little too chatty with over the years, but I wouldn't call it an all out EA. No "I love yous" or "oh if the world was different we could be together" crap. But when ever he was behaving a little in appropriately he's automatically start projecting on her. By their mid 20s she could sniff it out. As they near 40 he's just gotten much better at protecting his W vs feeding his ego.

My exH was just literally so insecure he constantly accused me of cheating. He went through my journals, my computer files, my emails, my IMs. Anything he could get his hands on he was constantly playing detective. All it really did was teach me how to hide my affair when I finally did have one. But he also knew he treated me like crap and I could do better. A lot of it was his fear that I would leave him, and his desperation for it to be my fault. So much so when I did leave, 4 years after my actually affair. He told people we split because of my affair. Not his drug use. Not his drinking. Not his mental health issues. Not his inability to carry his share of the household or parenting. Not his constant criticism. Not his inability to make his child a priority. Definitely the affair I had 4 years prior.

Given what I know about your H, I'd say a little of column A and a little of column B is what's going on here.

[Gerda]

Sage, at BD 1, my H angrily went through a list of the men he thought I flirted with as justification for reaching out to old gfs on FB (which he had just joined after 5 years of making fun of it). The list included a 25 year old customer from our business who was a famous movie actor and a couple of priests I seemed "close to." I had never cheated and never would, and I was barely able to find time to put on my shoes, let alone find someone to watch the baby and run a business and conduct an affair or even have one encounter. I was so devoted to my vows that I stayed faithful for seven years after BD and for the many years before that that he pulled away. (Honestly looking back I am not sure he was ever interested in me physically, but that's another story.) Anyway, at that point, when he basically accused me of pursuing relationships with those other men as he set off to a new life while married to me, I didn't know what MLC was then and APOLOGIZED IF I HAD DONE SOMETHING THAT SEEMED INAPPROPRIATE!

And I thought, well, one thing about H is that he would never ever cheat. So I never have to worry about that. Slowly I realized he "might," and then I just prayed for him to get it over with and out of his system so that we could restore our M. I said nothing and did the Love Dare many times over and slowly came to faith because of that. So that's how God used it.

Later I remembered that just after our son was born, he asked me if I had cheated on him because he had some medical issue that could have come from an STD. I had a newborn and a business to run and I LOVED him so I was totally astonished. And the saddest part was that I was happy that he cared if I cheated on him! I had felt like he didn't even know I was alive as a woman. That was in 2005, 8 years before BD.

When I finally did know about the affair -- and I don't know if you know my story, but I found out for sure the day I came home from a mastectomy and saw a text on his phone that said, "To My Secret Other Wife"), I used the word adultery once, some months after that when he started it up with her again. (He stopped right after the surgery, I think.) I never spoke to him about it but once when he tried to talk about it and did not admit that it was wrong to cheat, I told him not to speak to me about his adultery, that was between him and God. He sent me a long reply in which I described all the ways I had been adulterous by being a bad wife. It was an extremely vicious note, as if I had been the one to destroy him and destroy our marriage. I had been standing for a couple of years by then, very faithfully, very kindly, even through cancer and the death of my mother, while he had pretty much disappeared from our family and business.

I tell you that to remind you, BELIEVE NONE OF WHAT THEY SAY AND MAYBE 10% OF WHAT THEY DO.

If you are Christian, the best advice I could give on this is Philipians 4:8. You could also do this as a Buddhist practice. Just to let go of these thoughts and to focus on what is good and true and beautiful, even if it's just the true definition of marriage, no matter who is or isn't following it. Or a beautiful sky. Or the love of a dear friend.

[Sage4]

Thank you Alison, DnJ, Wayfarer and Gerda.

In hindsight, I am not really sure what my intention was asking that question in the first place. I think I was confused about why he would care about whether or not I am or was straying if he is so dead set on D. Why isn't he more indifferent? He certainly doesn't show me he cares about me in any other ways right now.

We had a really tough conversation about the children tonight. They are not taking the transitions between homes very well and it is impacting school, social interactions and their general well-being. And we are not just talking about run-of-the-mill 'this is hard, but kids will get over it with time' kind of stuff. It's really intense. And these issues are highlighting some of the deep discrepancies in our approaches to parenting and our approaches to life.

The challenge I am facing at the moment with these talks, which are necessary for the well-being of our children, is that they are engraining the narrative H has constructed about me. That I am emotionally superior and he is inferior. That I can manipulate and control. That no matter how hard he tries, no matter how much therapy or self-reflection, that he will never be good enough. So he reacts from this vantage.

The children spend 80%+ of their time alone with me. They have for their entire lives. So I am naturally the parent they go to with their feelings. They love H, but they have always tread carefully around his feelings (good and bad) and of course our current situation just amplified that for them. So I am getting all their raw feelings, they suck it up (sometimes) for the time they are with him, then come home and unload all their pent up emotions on me. Which is fine until I encounter something that I can't solve or deal with on my own.

I try to be gentle and open. I try to begin the conversations in validating, egalitarian terms. I do not think I am superior. I do not think he isn't good enough. I have no interest in manipulation or control. I want what's best for our children, as I believe he does as well.

But I also see how much these conversations are hurting our R and entrenching that nasty narrative. So how do I proceed? Any advice?

[may22]

Can I say something totally unenlightened?

I'm sorry but Sage... you *are* emotionally superior. Your H is a complete mess. He has chosen his own "happiness" over that of his family's and the children can see he still isn't happy. You are raising smart kids who are in touch with their own feelings. They see this. They have learned to deal with his issues and thank goodness they have always had you to be their rock.

And... your H probably sees some of this too. He may be choosing to express it as "poor me" who will never measure up to Sage, no matter what he does. (boo hoo.) But at some level, no matter what he's telling himself, that he deserves to be happy or he isn't good enough or whatever is the reason du jour... he knows he's f-ing up.

So... some thoughts.

I am having a hard time, knowing you through this board, believing that you are encountering anything you can't handle on your own with your kids. I believe you that they're having a really, really difficult time. I think that is really common and the fortunate thing is that you've developed the kind of relationship with your children that they can actually confide in you-- that, I think, is rare and a testament to what an incredible mom you are. You're getting the real look at what happens in these situations. (And to the extent you're willing to share what those problems are... maybe to the same extent my H's willingness to say whatever popped into his head to me helped others, I think it might help those of us with children who are navigating through all of this to hear how they're feeling and what they're dealing with right now. No pressure, though-- just if you're comfortable.)

So... are these really problems you can't solve on your own? I understand that it might be better to solve them together, but do you think your H is really capable of that right now? He hasn't shown he is able to deal with his own emotions well at all-- my guess is that he might take the kids' difficulties personally and either lash out at them for making him feel bad and guilty or take it out on you (more likely, and sounds like what is happening). How would you handle it if your H was totally acting bonkers right now? What if he wasn't around? I just wonder if it is helpful at all to try to solve these problems together. And/or if a tiny unspoken reason you are bringing these problems to him to solve together is to have the opportunity to connect as parents or to remind him of the consequences his actions are having on innocent parties. (I am fairly sure if I was in your position, being far less enlightened, there would be at least a little bit of that there for me.)

I'm just saying. If he's unhappy and confused and guilty and then he is seeing how devastating his actions are to his own children (which... sit with that for a second and be in his shoes. Can you imagine what you would feel like if you saw your children having such a rough time and knowing it was all your fault? That YOU made a choice and they were bearing the consequences? I truly can't even bear thinking of what that might feel like.). And you are being kind and gentle and non-blaming... perhaps that does come across as morally superior to someone who is feeling extremely guilty and insecure. And read a certain way, you trying to figure out how to communicate all of this to your H in a way that doesn't hurt his precious feelings sounds a little bit like even though you are S, you're still picking up his emotional burden.

Not to say you are trying to be controlling or any of that-- I don't believe that for one second. I am just wondering if there is really any value to these conversations right now, for any of you, even the children. Have you consulted a child or family psychiatrist? if they're really having trouble, it might be better to start that sooner rather than later, and then you'll have a professional third party who can communicate what is needed to your H without you needing to get in the middle.

So, there's my non-enlightened viewpoint on this, today. I'm not feeling especially generous towards any of these Hs.

(((SAGE)))

[Sage4]

May, thank you so much for this juicy, though-provoking response.

I didn't sleep well last night ruminating on our conversation. In reflection, there were a few moments where I could have done a better job of validating or being more enlightened and compassionate, but for the most part I am proud of how I conducted myself.

I do think this board lacks a discussion about children in all of this. I'm sure it's partly to protect the privacy of innocents and partly because we are so focused on our R. But really they are the ones that suffer the most in all of these situations and they deserve a voice and discussion.

The reason I can't solve this problem on my own is that it has to do with one of my children feeling like the overnight visitation is forced and said child is reacting extremely to this sensation. We probably need to get a therapist involved, but the last thing the kid can handle at the moment is another zoom call, even if that were to be an effective method of therapy for children, which I don't think it is. And in our area, there isn't much in person therapy options. So H and I are stuck trying to work it out how to best proceed, at least for now.

This whole situation perpetuates and increases H's insecurities. Sage the wise one, Sage the beloved, Sage who knows what to do in every situation. I have spent a lot of time talking with my IC to make sure that I am not projecting my own anger/frustration/sadness/issues into this situation, and I feel very comfortable saying I am not doing so. But I hate that in looking out for the best interest of my children, I am giving H more reasons to hate me.

24/7 solo parenting/homeschooling/dealing with our menagerie of pets and trying to find my footing and next steps is EXHAUSTING. The psychic toll of being 'on' all the time is wearing me down. I cried in private several times this weekend-- I just wanted and needed another adult. To celebrate our political situation, to watch the kids so I could go for a run, to laugh and have a glass of wine with that evening.

My self care is non existent at the moment. I don't have 15 consecutive minutes in any day, even my therapy appointments are conducted via phone in my bedroom with children interrupting to ask if they can do this or that. I need a break. It would be so much easier if the children willingly and happily went to H's. I want that for them and for me.

I am at a crossroad: I am damned if I talk to H about this stuff (makes him feel worse about himself) and damned if I don't (perpetuates alienation between H and the kids, makes my load too heavy to bear). My brain feels like it is going to explode.

[may22]

(((Sage)))

Your burden is too heavy right now. Put some of it down. Don't worry about your H's feelings. They are his to worry about, not yours. You need to talk to him about it because of your children, and you need to be sure your load is bearable. WHO CARES WHAT HE THINKS? I sure don't.

I personally don't think there is any value in trying to preserve his feelings or ego or whatever right now. He made his choices. He needs to experience the consequences. It is NOT YOUR JOB to worry about him and his insecurities. You have enough to worry about with your children and yourself.

*I* am worried about *you*. It breaks my heart that you are looking back at this conversation with your husband and seeing places you could have been more compassionate towards him or validated more. Honestly, Sage. Why are you pouring so much of your beautiful energy into this broken vessel?

But I hate that in looking out for the best interest of my children, I am giving H more reasons to hate me.

you are not giving him more reasons to hate you. His "hatred" of you is a reflection of his own self-hatred. He would find something else to pin on you if not this... or, if you succeed at making him feel good about himself even as he willfully and selfishly breaks apart your family, then he will never do the work he needs to do on himself to be the kind of father you want him to be to the children. He needs to stop feeling sorry for himself and step up and be a good dad. He needs to stop blaming you for his own insecurities and deficiencies. This is all on him. it is not on you. It is his work to do and there is nothing you can to do to help him on his path here-- except possibly block his own progress by trying to smooth everything out for him. Put this burden down.

I need a break. It would be so much easier if the children willingly and happily went to H's. I want that for them and for me.

This problem is big enough that it deserves 100% of your focus. No distractions about H's feelings. If his feelings need to be preserved in order to make it work for your kids, then okay. kiss his @ss to get what you need for yourself and your kids. Otherwise, do what you think is best. Remember how you were reminding me about when the children were toddlers and it mattered more what they ate over the course of a week than in one single meal? Maybe this is like sleep training. Your child is safe with your H. He may not like spending overnights there, but he is safe. He may mostly not like the fact that you guys are S and is acting out in a way to try to bring you back together. (I have read that kids do this kind of thing a lot, maybe not consciously.) So maybe it is in the best interests of your child to be firm and clear and send him to his dad's, so that you H has a chance to work on his own parenting skills without imagining that you're just pulling his puppet strings, and you have the time you desperately need for yourself, to recharge, cry, drink that glass of wine, celebrate the election, exercise, whatever you need to do so that you can be the best mom you can be when you pick them up. And though it breaks your heart to see him upset, just like your heart broke listening to that baby crying himself to sleep, it won't last forever. (Although now I'm thinking knowing you maybe you didn't do it that way!!)

(Note this is me just talking, I really don't know the answer. This is hard, hard stuff and I'm terrified I'll have to walk through it. I salute you for handling all of this with such amazing compassion and grace. You're incredible. I just am worried about you and want you to focus on you and stop worrying about your d!ckhead H.)

And one final solutioning idea, because I simply can't help it-- could you call a child psychologist who specializes in S/D and do a phone consult without making your child jump on a zoom call? Explain the situation and get some advice? or better yet-- suggest your H do this? Then at least you have the third party expert in the room, which both can give you comfort that you're doing what is best for your child, plus takes the weight off of Sage being the all-knowing perfect parent and all his issues around that.

(((SAGE)))