Courage

[kml]

OwnIt! We miss you! Hoping for an update sometime.

Andrew - what's the update on last night? What did you come home to?

[AndrewP]

Thanks everyone. I actually started typing a response early this morning when I got to the plant.

Crazy, crazy day here at the plant. Trying to get 5 days worth of on-site work done in one along with what usually fills up my day plus a number of things going sideways as they often do. Fortunately I work with great people. Most people who know me personally would imagine that any sort of upset of a carefully laid plan would throw me but that's what I deal with every day at work and find it interesting and challenging. I think my ex-wife understood that about me though. It's not the things going wrong that bothers me - it's the feeling of loss of control. Which is why I love go-carts but hate roller-coasters. Probably says a lot about me right there.

Wow bttrfly - thanks for taking the time on this. You've certainly given me things to think about.

Red flag #3 to def con 3:
Well. Now. There's a little tidbit you've been keeping close to the vest. S is self deluded so I would really, REALLY explore "she doesn't do it too often" to dig into what the actual reality of that is. Regularly smoking and not too often are pretty far apart. Denial about that is curious to me, as it could point to a bigger underlying problem, which will affect you far more than you realize. Plenty of people indulge from time to time. Those are people whose indulgences do not have a serious negative impact on their lives or the lives of those around them. She exhibits some classic "stoner" traits: sloth, laziness, lack of motivation or ambition, unemployability, etc. The hoarding of junk food. This is not what a casual pot smoker exhibits. I stand by my prior suggestion of checking out some zoom Alanon meetings. See if anything resonates with you.

I suppose I should look more into Alanon. I do know that it's not very regular at all from some perspectives but the amount that I know about marijauna consumption could be written on a rolling paper. What she said about only a couple of times a week does match what I see. The bit that bothers me was that I had thought that it was doctor recommended but instead appears to be self-medication. The other traits I think are pretty long-standing habits that go way way back. She's never had a full time paying job since her 20s but having a posse of kids is a pretty full time job and then some. Although she did rely on them quite heavily for a lot of the day to day tasks well beyond just "chores". I would imagine that when her oldest moved out that things really took a nose-dive based on what I've heard about how she took care of things for her mother.

Since I am largely unimpressed or concerned with anything S says at this point, since she would tell you snow is purple if it suited her, I almost deleted that sentence. I chose to leave it in in case there actually might be something there worth examining to uncover these deep-seated problems from your youth. This is an opportunity, Andrew, for you to uncover those more thoroughly and do some real healing work for yourself, separate from this, or any, relationship. I hope you see this opportunity and use it to your advantage.

It is something that I will need to work on - among other things like being a door-mat. Personally I think it doesn't stem from my youth but rather from my marriage. On the other hand my room-mate in University was a psychology major that I nick-named "Doc" because he felt that I was a whole DSM on my own. My over-reacting is certainly a thing. Oddly it doesn't affect my personal or professional life and if I recall, didn't with B either. Only with my ex-wife and S who have I think similar patterns of communication.

It would be very, very interesting to see if #3's financial picture improved post relationship with S. Too easy to say he went bankrupt twice on his own. She was a willing and able participant, I'm sure.

He makes a chunk more money than I do. Not a huge amount more but a good amount. His finances are a complete disaster as far as I know. He lives in rentals at one point saying that he was going to live in a tent. He totaled his car last year and is still paying it off and can't afford another one. When they were married he was a "consultant" but after they divorced got a "real job" so that he could be close to the kids. It sounds creepy but S18 was telling me that he would often move to whatever town S was in whenever she moved.

He actually texted S a couple of days ago suggesting that he stop paying now that she has come into money - I do believe that S rightly feels that the world is spinning in the wrong direction for her at present. I do believe that he lives paycheque to paycheque but I do know too though that he'll have a decent pension when he retires which I know he would like to do.

I'm thoroughly gobsmacked by the fact that you left B out. Forget about S's lies. Focus on your own.

:P - The question was about how long since we were "divorced" but your point is well taken and valid.

IT'S YOUR HOME.
SHE MOVED IN.
YOU ARE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED, AND THE $$$ YOU EARN PUTS FOOD IN HER AND HER KIDS' (AND PROBABLY PETS') MOUTHS.
THIS MAKES ME APOPLECTIC.

It was an attack in her usual pattern. Deny / Accuse / Reverse Victim.
Easier than facing that there "should" be oodles of space for a family of 4. There certainly used to be. And for some time both my wife and I worked from home. Certainly she didn't have the separate "crafting room" that S wants but we managed.

The is no "business" she is a charlatan, delusional and a discredit to the very real, gifted healers who work hard to make a difference in this world.

Indeed. The fact that in the more than a year that I've known her she's not done anything other than suggest garlic pills to help battle my leg infection is certainly telling. Heck, I'd be happy if she ran around the house in her all-together whacking things with a voo-doo stick to get rid of bad sprits. And I'm the skeptic here - although I do believe in energy flows. Which also makes the fact that I refer to environments as "dark" and that the energy isn't flowing in a healthy way not seeming to be important to her weird.

I was also able to talk about this within the context of being suddenly overwhelmed by people and stuff and how that caused me so much stress and upset. I believe that was heard by both S and the therapist.

I bolded the part that made my eyebrow go waaaaay up into my hairline but quoted the entire piece for context ... Why. Is. This.. An. Eye. Opener. To. Her. When. You've. Been. Talking. About. It. FOREVER? Yes, I am actively grinding my teeth as I typed that.

Goes back to the point above as well. S sees this I think in a very simplistic fashion - that her stuff isn't put away - which is only just part of it. Even the fact that I have had what I now believe are panic attacks over the stress doesn't seem to be noticed - despite me saying yesterday - "I think I had a panic attack an hour or so ago". And I've been telling her for quite some time that I'm not sleeping well and lately that I have insomnia and the stress is hard on me.

How much richer this picture would have been had the therapist known about B, your relationship, recent breakup, etc and how swiftly S moved in on you. Bring it up next session, is my suggestion.

Yep - I need to own my own - er - animal excrement (waves to job before she presses the censored button ) Although it is top of mind to me that this woman is being paid by the hour and is not covered by my health plan.

It most certainly, absolutely, unequivocally is NOT a "good thing" and frankly, does no one any good. Here's a valuable homework assignment for you Andrew - do a quick internet search on the term "people pleaser" ... learn what it really means and what the unintended consequences of people pleasing are to the people pleaser and those around him/her.

More homework .....

I think, Andrew, the point is simply this: if you had nothing of material value to contribute, what then would you do? I think it's a valuable exercise in stripping down to basics your core values and competencies and is worth an effort on your part.

More homework - really??

Presumably there were always kids in the house previously which led to there being more kids in the house. With the absolute neglect (benign or otherwise) that she exhibits towards her children this is the flimsiest of excuses, to say the least.

Yep - she seemed to not be bothered too much by "my" son in the next room. It's an excuse.

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My bet is she leaves for there much earlier than expected.

That's where the smart money seems to be in a couple of scenarios. I know she has to go down there for a day or so in the middle of next week.

She is the one who wanted this sooooo quickly.

She does rightly throw that back at me though as I am the one who asked her to get engaged. And she said she was confused when I talked about us moving in together but wouldn't set a date for that.

As for the transparency of the finance: tell me again how you discovered her HIDDEN STASH? in my opinion, that " stash" is as much yours as it is hers. While YOU PAY, SHE SAVES??? NO NO NO
YOU BOTH PAY AND YOU BOTH SAVE..

It was just basic math based on the income and expense numbers that I know that she had shown me. The amount she contributes is just a bit higher than what she used to pay in rent alone.

[kml]

The amount she contributes is just a bit higher than what she used to pay in rent alone.

Although, to be fair, she no longer receives child support for S18, correct?

Honestly, I don't quite understand the sources of her income anyway. I'm assuming child support for S13. But was she married long enough to any of her past spouses to still be collecting alimony from any of them? I know you said she was "too proud" to take government assistance but I really can't understand what she has been living on without that. Remind me again, what's your understanding of her income sources?

[bttrfly]

Andrew my dear, that Lonnnnnnng post from me is an example of what those who know me irl are subjected to when I get a bit, shall we say, "Italian" about something. Yes, Andrew. More homework. I think you will find it helpful. And a final assignment to help with the stress --- guided meditations from excel at life courtesy of our very own Roist ... google it - there's an entire list of audios on the left frame scrolling down to help with relaxation.

My most favorite and healing though is the loving kindness meditation. Saved my bacon more than a time or two.

Thank you for being open to the comments. I know it's not easy.

xoxo

[bttrfly]

and re the "not very regular" and self medicated vs prescribed ... you know, it's not the amount or frequency. It is the effect on self and those around one. Her life is pretty unmanageable (although that's for her to admit to and do something about) and it's unfortunately making yours unmanageable also. The suggestion is try 6 different meetings. We can talk more about this elsewhere. You know where to find me.

[AndrewP]

Thx {{bttrfly}} - I have a weakness for Italians I still remember B and I having a rather loud "discussion" and me calling back to her mother "We're not fighting - we're communicating" or something like that.

Some of the things that bothered me back then certainly are small potatoes compared to what I've got now. It still wouldn't have worked out between us but I do still think of her fondly. I've not heard from or about her other than she went back to her husband when he got sick and seems to have stayed there. I hope she's doing well - that was a pretty unhealthy relationship. There are things about her that I certainly miss - even her continuous chatter and perhaps not surprisingly her mother who was a doll - and a rather formidable woman at I believe 94 now. I keep a bit of a watch for an obituary which may be morbid but inevitable.

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I had a nice dinner with my best friend last night who administered several no-holds barred kicks at me. It seems that his wife also refers to S as a "predator". He also is very strong in his belief that I need to end this sooner rather than later - 6 months ago being his preference.

Weird weird weird dreams last night. So incredibly vivid - I recall a few times thinking "I really need to get some sleep" - and then waking up enough to realize that I was. Again a very awkward time in bed - S just "stiff" although she did seem to fall asleep fairly quickly when she did eventually get into bed around 1:30.

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Andrew - what's the update on last night? What did you come home to?

I was actually home all day Wednesday and S made one of her standard dinners. Pasta and sauce out of a can. Any Italians reading that would be horrified Pretty high sodium but tasty enough. S left everything out on the stove for S18 but did actually put the left-over noodles and sauce away. Some frozen vegetables she had steamed are still in the pot 2 days later.

Well - S is giving it a try but she's not happy about it She's done quite a bit of "putting away" and organizing today as well. I don't think it's sustainable. She even washed many of the dishes (left in the drying rack). She has some sort of chicken dish planned for tonight it seems - probably about 4 times the amount of meat needed is defrosting presently.

I was unsurprised when the garbage that I put out on Wednesday night was roughly 1/3 of what it was with S here full time.

At lunch today we spent a bit of time going over the books and what the spending is expected to be for the next week and through the end of the month and what our margin is. She had also sent over another few hundred dollars that she "had saved but didn't need" which helps.

Although, to be fair, she no longer receives child support for S18, correct?

Honestly, I don't quite understand the sources of her income anyway. I'm assuming child support for S13. But was she married long enough to any of her past spouses to still be collecting alimony from any of them? I know you said she was "too proud" to take government assistance but I really can't understand what she has been living on without that. Remind me again, what's your understanding of her income sources?

S gets child support and a smaller amount of spousal support plus the government benefit. The latter is what got cut and it's not nearly as big of a number as she let on.

Given the direction that things appear to be going, I'm certainly not going to raise a big stink about it.

Some more documents showed up that I saw and she'll shortly have access to a good chunk of liquid cash cashing out the balance of her parents' pensions on top of the insurance money. Certainly lots enough to get an apartment and pay for that for a few months without dipping into anything else. It turns out that her D19 and boyfriend have been living in the house for the last week as well. They are what I think of as "taker" personalities with no jobs - something that it's become apparent that S is as well.

S has said that she's going back to her Dad's place probably sometime Sunday and will be down there all week again. Hopefully this time she takes the dog. That will make it 4 weeks roughly since she's been here regularly. She does have a number of legitimate reasons to be down there related to medical appointments for her daughter and things related to the estate.

S has said that she's glanced at some of her reading homework but that it doesn't mean a lot to her. I've done a little on mine, done a bit of reading on how to deal with panic although perhaps stress attack is maybe a better definition. My friend that I had dinner with completely agrees with that diagnosis as well. I did try the steroid inhaler my doctor gave me and it did seem to have a minor impact. I've done a lot more thinking as well as talking to S about what I was assigned - she has no input. I think though to look deeply at my inner self is something that perhaps I've not done enough of lately. I've been in a cloud of unhappiness for a while and have lost touch with that part of myself.

So - we continue on. Things are now in play and out in the open for me to be more honest than I have been. I really don't think that S has the will to try heroic efforts to "win me back" because you would imagine that if she did that she would be doing a lot more. She knows she has the ability to charm me and while I still will give her a hug if she looks like she needs one she's not seeking me out for attention or affection. I'm expecting another night with a mannequin tonight again. I've made sure to notice what she's accomplished but there's no excitement of "I'm on a roll" or "oohh - look at me being a domestic diva". Just the grinding along you would expect of a teenager who has been assigned some chores.

This must be a unique experience for her though - she literally has the power to make it on her own without outside support and has the power on her own to choose to walk out with minimal financial impact and into a life where she would be dependent on nobody at least for the medium term.

Well - time I think to call it a day - fairly quiet at work for a change. We had a single large order go through that was easy to organize. We landed a chunk of new business (probably) that will give us some volumes in a chemistry we do a bit of work on and will be dropping an entire product line that has been an administrative nuisance.

S has gone "in to town" to drop off S18 and to pick up prescriptions and a bit of groceries. I think it's a good time to bundle up in some warmish clothes and go for a walk.

[Dawn70]

You've mentioned several times that S will receive enough benefit (for lack of a better word) from her dad's estate to be able to take care of herself, at least in the short-term, but I have never gotten the sense that she was terribly interested in doing that. You say she can move into a life where she isn't dependent on anyone, but I think she rather enjoys living off of other people. If she does that, she has no real responsibilities. While I don't doubt she loves her children, she doesn't strike me, based on your description, as overly maternal in any form or fashion and allows her kids to be taken care of by others and themselves so that she can sleep late and do whatever it is she does with all of her time. Why would she want the responsibility that comes with being the adult in the house, paying bills and such, if she can have someone else do that for her?

I'm sure I will sound super nitpicky, but the fact that she prepared a half-a$$ed meal and then still left stuff out despite the fact that you have pointed out to her repeatedly you don't like that would tell me all I need to know about her intentions to really toe the line and make some serious changes. Sure, she put leftovers away and washed dishes, but she didn't fully clean up after herself. What adult does that after 2 days? I mean, ok, I'm not perfect and as of right this minute, there are a few dishes in my sink from this morning because I didn't take the time to unload the dishwasher I ran last night and take care of the breakfast dishes I dirtied this morning, but I did rinse them thoroughly and put away/throw away all related items and will unload and reload the dishwasher tonight while I'm cooking supper. Really not that difficult! And, I work full time, so I can figure it out. And while I'm on my negative roll here, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a quick pasta and pre-made sauce dinner and Sparky and I have that occasionally because it is a fast, easy meal, but we both work full time. When I was working from home, even though I was still working full time, I was cooking full, actual, homemade meals. If I stayed home I would most certainly do that. H3ll, one day last week, I had a stomach bug and stayed home one day and I made homemade potato soup because it was a cold, rainy day and I wanted Sparky to have a warm and filling meal when he got home. Not fancy, but nutritious and homemade and I was sick! So, her excuses just wouldn't fly with me at this point. But, as I have said numerous times and will continue to say, you have to make the choice that is right for you. I'm not there, living in the situation, so I can't make the choice.

[bttrfly]

i'd be loathe to have her putting stuff away - rather, i'd prefer she packed her $h!t and left ... but, that's just me.

her lack of enthusiasm is all you need to know.

her going back on Sunday rather than the original mid-week, again - telling.

we all know where this is going, just not sure why it's taking so long ? prolonging the misery?

[Ginger1]

I am still not understanding what you are waiting for? What miracle you are expecting to happen? I think you know exactly where this is going. So does she. Why wait until she [censored] you dry financially, emotionally and mentally? I don’t understand what’s to be gained. Maybe it’s not for me to understand

[DonH]

I am still not understanding what you are waiting for? What miracle you are expecting to happen?...
I don’t understand what’s to be gained. Maybe it’s not for me to understand

If you have not figured this one out, you’ve either not been paying attention or are just not trying very hard (to figure it out). Andrew is waiting for S to do what he can’t bring himself to do. He’s waiting for S break off their engagement and to say that she’s leaving. That’s what Andrew is waiting for.

I’d guess it’s coming sooner than later. Or she will just continue to live 75% of the time at her new home while Andrew takes care of the dog and S18 and rabbits and cats and whatever else - oh yeah, the finances.

The true S has become clear to everyone, including Andrew. Then again, many here already had strong suspicions. There is really no reason to try to figure out how to make this train wreck of an R work or analyze why it hasn’t. What I really hope Andrew will do is figure out why he allowed and actually in great part caused this to happen. Is LH accurate in his assertion that he doesn’t think he’s enough and doesn’t want to live, or die, alone? Might be part of it, might not. But clearly there have been patterns at play here with S, with B and others. Why would many, perhaps most, others not give S a third date let alone put a ring on it and move her in after mere months together?

I will again give you huge credit Andrew for opening all of the details to comparative strangers here. That cannot be easy. It also shows that you are willing to look at things. Hopefully you’ll find a good C who can work with you to figure this out. Much more importantly, find a good C to help you from continuing the pattern any longer. Please do this BEFORE you go out on a single date post S.