WAW Hired a Divorce Coach

[SteveLW]

Last night after dinner I said I was going to run to Bed Bath and Beyond. She was put off by that. She said she was going to take my daughter to find pajamas and was annoyed that i was going to leave our 12 year old son by himself. I just kind of shrugged my shoulders and went anyways. I had another errand to run too to return an amazon package, that was right next to BBB also.

I got home around 8:15 (was gone an hour) and she came home a little after. Around 9:15p my son and I went for a 30 minute walk. As we were walking he began to talk about a movie they watched in school and how a patient had Alzheimer’s and then mentioned how the teachers grandmother had it. Now my wife’s dad has dementia and I think my son kind of new, but no one has really talked to him about it, so I did on our walk. He was sad as we talked about it. We got home, he went to bed.

I came downstairs and was going to turn on the TV but she said we had some things to discuss. First she mentioned that she had gotten my son a referral to a counselor because she believes he is depressed (this is good because he’s going to be going through hard times), then she wanted to discuss whether or not we would let the kids go trick or treating with Covid going on (I was against it), then she mentioned that I was acting strange and the kids could tell. The fact I had a cleaning lady come check out the house and that I had left to run my errand were alerting them that something was up. She mentioned that she had done her part and had worn her wedding rings all week and that I needed to do mine. Then she asked me what I was really doing. She said she saw me come out of a store that I hadn’t said I was going into. She said she saw me when her and my daughter went to get pajamas. I simply told her where I had gone as I’m not hiding anything. And she wasn’t following me but It was an interesting coincidence the way the timing set up that she had taken my daughter to the store next to where I was.

I then mentioned the conversation I had with my son, to give her a heads up. She was very angry but stayed reserved. She said I had no place to tell him. She said this is why our marriage didn’t work. She said that I had no feelings or emotions around what I had done and she said I was being defensive. This was a tough moment for me as I struggle when I’m being chastised and I want to make it right and do the right thing. I apologized and said the conversation had just come up because of his school day. She said how complicated it was because her mom and her sister were still in denial and that if my son said something it would create a mess.

Then the date of telling the kids came back up, as to when we would do it. She wants next Saturday. I asked if her new house was on track to be bought and she said yes. That has been important to her in regards to the date we tell the kids. I told her I would go to my work dinner alone and the family trip for thanksgiving would just be me and the kids.

Finally I was able to end this dreadful conversation. I felt like I got suckered in because it was about the kids and then when I got accused of being sneaky and lectured on how I should t have told my son about the dementia (and she might be right about that - he’s twelve and I felt it was time for him to understand as he was learning about it in school - that could completely be my bad).

As we were getting ready for bed she said “At what point do you cancel your trip for thanksgiving (we’re flying)? You know, like you wanted to cancel trick or treat?” I told her that her first question was fair but that the second was a passive aggressive attack and I wouldn’t stand for it. She looked at me in mild disbelief when I said that. She said no it wasn’t, and then reiterated her first question. I said we would take it a day at a time. She asked again, what would make you cancel it and I said “if that state goes in the quarantine list.” Then she dropped it.

As we got into bed I apologized for possibly being out of line with the comments about her dad again and she said “you could have apologized downstairs (which is wild because I had - I just left it).

———-

So I thought going out to do my thing was good. Taking my son for a walk was good, to get out of the house again. Discussing the dementia with him was probably a misstep. And then falling into the trap of that conversation was a big misstep. Standing up to her passive aggressive attack was good. And then as she was talking in bed about her frustration I specifically heard the words listen and validate - so in that moment I did good.

Not sure any of it matters. I need to work on being gentle and loving but tough. My tough comes off as neither of those. I am trying to open the bid cage. Next weekend is going to be a [censored] show.

I will disagree with you. The ONLY thing you did wrong was to not just listen and validate. I know it occurred to you in bed to do that, but you need to practice it so that it comes naturally.

"The kids are starting to notice that you are acting different." Just listen. No need to deflect, deny, defend. Just listen.
"Why are you acting different?" I am just trying to give you what you asked for.
"Well it makes me angry!" So you are saying that when I try to give you what you asked for, it upsets you. (Not a question, a statement.

I could go on but you get the point. Sometimes the WAS just wants to be heard. So listen. Sometimes they want their feelings understood. Validate. Sometimes they want to call you a dirty so-and-so. End the conversation and walk away.

I'd highly suggest that you kick her out of the marital bedroom after Saturday. The kids will know what is going on now. She is planning on moving out. So after the kids are in bed Saturday night. "Now that the kids know, I have decided you should sleep elsewhere." Be firm. Not angry or upset. If she protests, listen and validate but stand your ground.

Also, stop apologizing more than once. I don't think talking to your son about his grandfather's dementia is out of line. But if you truly did think she was right, ONE APOLOGY. Not more than one. That is NGS flaring back up.

So let's talk about Saturday, what is your plan for the talk with the kids?

[LH19]

Scotty,

I am going to disagree with Steve. There is no need to kick her out of the bedroom. She’s not having an affair and it will just come off as you being a dick and butt hurt. You don’t care if she sleeps there or not. You’re detached and letting her go to find her happiness.

[SteveLW]

Actually, LH makes a good point. No PA, no need to kick her out of the MBR. Plus she will be moving out soon so it is a moot point.

So I stand corrected, do not kick her out of MBR or even ask her to sleep somewhere else.

HOWEVER, she may very well broach the subject herself after the kids know. Likely she has been sleeping in the same bed with you only to keep up the illusion for the kids. DO NOT LEAVE THE MBR. That will likely be her tact. "I think you should sleep somewhere else." Do not respond or argue with her. Just when it is time for bed, get ready and get into bed. If she protests just say "I like sleeping here." Be prepared (because this sets back LBSs all the time) because she may decide to go sleep somewhere else. Let her.

[LH19]

This I agree with.

[ovrrnbw]

Scotty,

don't get so wrapped up in her. Detach means detach. You're stuck in her world my man.

I would agree with her on your Covid logic being off (Halloween = not OK but Thanksgiving = OK). Personally I'm fine with you doing whatever you want but Halloween is a bunch of kids who aren't susceptible to covid and it's outside vs. Thanksgiving involving older folks indoors. If I was cancelling one it'd be the older folks indoors.

You need to get consistent in everything too. I don't think she knows what to expect.

[AnotherStander]

First, I have a work dinner at a very nice restaurant next week and she is invited. It feels like i should ask her not to go, but that would be a big reversal. I’m not sure how I go there.

So you followed my suggestion on Love Must Be Tough, good! But what have you learned in reading it? What does "opening the cage door" mean? It means DO NOT TRY TO CONTROL AND MANIPULATE. Right? You show her that the cage door is open, and you step back into the shadows and let her do what she chooses. So with that in mind, what should you do about the dinner? It should be obvious- LET HER DECIDE. The cage door is open. She can go. She can not go. It's up to her. So here's what you should do- tell her "that work dinner is on (day) at (time), you're welcome to join me if you want but if you don't want to I completely understand." It's her choice.

The other is we have a family trip to visit my parents for thanksgiving. I had tried to convince her to go for the kids but I’m starting to think I should tell her she can’t go.

Hopefully after reading the above you know what to do about this too.

A lot of LBS's make a mistake on these things, they think that if they always told the WAS what to do before BD, that a nice 180 from that is telling them what not to do. That is not a 180, it's "more of the same" behavior. It's still control and manipulation. A 180 is stepping back and letting the WAS decide.

then she wanted to discuss whether or not we would let the kids go trick or treating with Covid going on (I was against it)

Did you discuss it or just tell her you were against it? All else aside you are still coparenting and need to work together as a team. "I feel it's not a good idea because of Covid, what are your thoughts?" Listen and pay close attention when she talks.

She mentioned that she had done her part and had worn her wedding rings all week and that I needed to do mine. Then she asked me what I was really doing. She said she saw me come out of a store that I hadn’t said I was going into. She said she saw me when her and my daughter went to get pajamas. I simply told her where I had gone as I’m not hiding anything.

Listen and validate. "It sounds like this upset you, is that how you feel?" "Not upset, I just don't think you're being honest with me." "I see, I can understand why you would feel that way, I will try to communicate better with you." Validating is not admitting fault, it is simply acknowledging her feelings.

So we talk about detachment and GAL'ing, but when you have kids it's important to continue your parental responsibilities. One suggestion I've offered people in the past is if you want an evening (or two) to do your own thing, then sit down with your W and tell her that. Tell her what evenings you want to yourself, and offer her the same. For example, you might say "I would like some freedom to be able to have an evening where I can get out of the house without the kids and go do my own thing, and was thinking maybe you would like one as well. So how about I take Tuesdays and you take Thursdays?" This way you get your private time to do whatever you want and you can choose not to tell her what it is, but at the same time you're not shirking your responsibilities or just disappearing.

I then mentioned the conversation I had with my son, to give her a heads up. She was very angry but stayed reserved.

I think she had every right to be angry about that, it's something you should have consulted with her about first. This again is going to look to her like control and manipulation.

She said this is why our marriage didn’t work. She said that I had no feelings or emotions around what I had done and she said I was being defensive. This was a tough moment for me as I struggle when I’m being chastised and I want to make it right and do the right thing. I apologized and said the conversation had just come up because of his school day. She said how complicated it was because her mom and her sister were still in denial and that if my son said something it would create a mess.

She makes some good points. Something to think about a 180 on.

And then falling into the trap of that conversation was a big misstep. Standing up to her passive aggressive attack was good. And then as she was talking in bed about her frustration I specifically heard the words listen and validate - so in that moment I did good.

Conversations are not "traps" and the only misstep is when you don't listen and validate. It's good that you eventually remembered, but hopefully you'll remember at the BEGINNING of the convo next time instead of at the end!

There is absolutely nothing you can do now to change the outcome. That ship sailed a long time ago.

This is true. You're not trying to win her back right now, you're trying to lay the groundwork for that to happen later (much later probably).

Make yourself scarce while still living together

LBSs really struggle with this, but just fading into the shadows is absolutely the best thing you can do right now. I call it "removing yourself from the equation." Right now all her calculations on why her life isn't perfect all point to you. Everything you try to do just reminds her of what her central theme is (that she wants you gone). There's a line Cersei used in Game of Thrones- "your very presence irritates me." This is how she feels about you right now. So you fade into the background. Eventually she'll realize she's still unhappy despite you not being around and ever-present anymore. THAT is when she (hopefully) starts working on herself.

[LH19]

AS “ Your very presence irritates me” made me spit coffee on my computer lol. Thx!

[ScottB]

LH - I hear you. You've sent me good stuff to read on this account and it lines up exactly with everything I know and everything I've read. I'm struggling to accept it because I know its all circumstantial, hormone driven stuff. In my career I've studied this curve and I've always been aware of it, so it is very frustrating to be locked into it.

I definitely think I've fanned the flames as well without realizing it. She has consistently held me hostage since her EA blaming me for everything under the sun, including the EA and I have consistently worked to improve and change, I've consistently owned my part and she has never taken any of the blame. This has just fed her lack of respect for me. Dobson's book and a consult I had with the guy that wrote about the pursuer - withdraw dynamics (can't remember that book) both nailed the fact that I've proven her [censored] doesn't stink. The worst she treats me the more I do for her. Its twisted and sick and as my self-esteem and self-worth have plummeted, she's completely taken me. She's also abused the fact that I believe marriage is for life - which led me to kowtow to her.

Hopefully I can learn to respect myself again and begin to not let her treat me like this, for me.

[ScottB]

HOWEVER, she may very well broach the subject herself after the kids know. Likely she has been sleeping in the same bed with you only to keep up the illusion for the kids. DO NOT LEAVE THE MBR. That will likely be her tact. "I think you should sleep somewhere else." Do not respond or argue with her. Just when it is time for bed, get ready and get into bed. If she protests just say "I like sleeping here." Be prepared (because this sets back LBSs all the time) because she may decide to go sleep somewhere else. Let her.

The kids are being told on 11/7, next Saturday. And I will not leave the bed.

A lot of LBS's make a mistake on these things, they think that if they always told the WAS what to do before BD, that a nice 180 from that is telling them what not to do. That is not a 180, it's "more of the same" behavior. It's still control and manipulation. A 180 is stepping back and letting the WAS decide.

Well AS, you are right. I did this wrong. I just went the other way and told her she wasn't coming to each. My thought was to begin to create the crisis sooner than later like Dobson talked about.

Did you discuss it or just tell her you were against it? All else aside you are still coparenting and need to work together as a team. "I feel it's not a good idea because of Covid, what are your thoughts?" Listen and pay close attention when she talks.

I thought we discussed it and came to a compromise.

Everything you try to do just reminds her of what her central theme is (that she wants you gone). There's a line Cersei used in Game of Thrones- "your very presence irritates me." This is how she feels about you right now. So you fade into the background. Eventually she'll realize she's still unhappy despite you not being around and ever-present anymore. THAT is when she (hopefully) starts working on herself.

That's strong. And so true. Our house is small. Its hard to fade, we don't have many places to go, its hard to find separation unless I just go to bed right after the kids do.

I need practice on this Listen and Validate thing. Suggestions? Steve's sample conversation was actually helpful.

[LH19]

One of the most frustrating pieces is you can not use logic and reason with someone who is basing everything on feelings and emotions.