#18 - Still working 2 years into Ring & Piecing

[PLC]

Thank you Steve,

Sometimes I feel fine and others, not so much.

I feel like I am detaching, but something creeps up in my feelings and I get scared it’s not working. I need to realize that is not detachment.

I am going to reread this post when I need a little pep talk. I have been told “I want a divorce” I acknowledged, but nothing has been done since then by him. I have been trying to live forward not backwards. I definitely have felt ignored, like I am ignoring and not seeing anything.

I know H is in the middle of a MLC he has never left and that gives me time to see the ups and downs of his journey. That is good and bad in that seeing him, I know he’s home most of the time and I see how he is not present with our family.

Again, thank you for posting.

PLC

[BL42]

Steve85 - Thanks for the post on detachment. I certainly needed to read that tonight.

Sometimes I feel fine and others, not so much.

I feel like I am detaching, but something creeps up in my feelings and I get scared it’s not working. I need to realize that is not detachment.

PLC - I've been doing much better for months now but still have "lows" and "triggers" as well. Tonight was definitely one of those. Many people on this site will say progress is not linear, and there will be those ups and downs - we both have to just keeping working on it and it will get better.

[SteveLW]

Steve85 - I’m curious to know more about your sitch, as a lot of the sexless stuff you talk about sounds similar. Do you have a thread I could read, or could you expand on how your sitch went? Especially since it lead to recon. I’m not looking for techniques, or to cherry pick (which I know is dangerous) but simply more info.

Hoch, thanks for the question. I hopped over to my thread for two reasons. 1) I didn't want to hijack your thread. 2) Because it will give you the trail back to my original threads (you can also do that by clicking on my name, Profile, Show Posts, then select Threads Created).

My sitch was already over 2 months old when I found the forum. And so there weren't a lot of posts related to my MR pre-sitch. Obviously, some of the details came out in my threads overtime. But there really was no where they really went into great detail where that MR was at BD on 12/23/2017.

I am going to be vague to try to not give away my identity but give enough clarity as to timing and dynamics.

When my W and I met, I had been dating casually. I hadn't had a relationship in a few years, and I was fine with that. But I would meet women and go on dates. I hadn't met anyone that I was really interested in pursuing. I met one girl that was 19, and was intrigued, but her immaturity quickly reared its head and I was over it after a few dates. Other than that it was several years of dating a woman 1-3 times, and then moving on. I had a few women in those years that were interested, but I quickly shut it down and moved on.

I also have mentioned that I had a long-term, on-again, off-again R with a woman that I had known since my grade school days. We were like a moth to a flame with each other, even when one of us was seeing someone else, there was a draw. Looking back I think used the idea of eventually being together as lovers as a carrot to get me to remain friends. This went on for literally decades and spanned all of my Rs as well as hers. (Just as a side, she would get upset when I started to get serious about someone.)

Then I met my W. There was an immediate spark. She was someone that I was ready go all in on and someone that I was willing to finally rip myself away from the toxicity of the on-again, off-again thing I had going on with the girl from my past. I had no desire to interact with her at all once I met my W. I was just out of the mini-R with the 19 year-old (and so grateful for that!), and after talking on the phone for hours with my W (she lived about an hour from me) we started to agree to meet for dates.

She came from a long line of long-term relationships. She found herself single from her latest for just a few months at this point. She had dated one guy that I feel was stringing her along, and that was still ending when her and I met. She recognized our spark, she realized from a beliefs and background standpoint I was a much better fit, but she did still have one foot in her just ended R. The guy's ex GF came back saying she was pregnant with his baby. He felt a duty to be with his baby's mom, but my W at the time felt there was a chance he would still chose her over the ex-GF. So while we started dating casually, she wasn't completely over him.

We dated casually, almost as friends (it started to feel like deja vu). She was resistant at first to jump back into a serious R due to her previous long-term one ending without her desire for it to a few months before, and because this latest guy seemed to want to keep her on the backburner. Eventually, she called one night and said he had said "she was free" so she wanted to give us a real shot now. But now I was hesitant. Did I really want to be a back-up plan, having been one for so long?

By then she had met a few members of my family and extended family. My cousin had a wedding coming up, that I was standing up in, and she received a personal invite from my cousin to attend. Even though we were still in a precarious place. Her not wanting to commit, me not wanting to be strung along. I told her I didn't think she should come the wedding. But since she had a personal invitation she came anyway. It was really our first official event as a couple, and from that point on we were a couple. She made her feeling known in no uncertain terms that she was full in now with me. Within months she was hinting at wanting to get married.

I am a very conservative, low-risk kind of guy. I had been a Dr. Laura listener for years by that point, and if you know Dr. Laura she advocates a minimum of 2 years dating before marriage. So I had a two year dating requirement in my head. However, I didn't voice this and just brushed off her hints at marriage. About 6 months in, she moved from an hour away from me to 5 minutes away. And the nearest felt stifling to me. We had been doing the "one weekend she'd drive down, the next I'd drive up" arrangements, except when I had my dog at my place instead of parents, or if there was some specific event. But now we lived 5 minutes from each other and she was feeling a little clingy to me.

This caused 2 things for me. 1) I started to question if I wanted a long-term commitment with her. 2) The PTSD from the on-again, off-again R with my ex reared its head and I started to push her away to test her commitment. The result was that year 2 of dating was much more rocky than year one had been. I should point out that we were both in our late 20s at this point, so she was also feeling the "ticking of the clock" through all of this. But I still had that 2 year dating courtship requirement in my head.

As the second year drew to a close, after pushing her away, and her alternating between giving me space and pursuing me, things started to smooth out. I started to see that she was committed to me, and I started to warm up to the idea of long-term commitment to her and marrying her.

I should point out, and though my belief system today run counter to this, our sex life was off the charts during all this time. Even during the rocky second year, when we would see each other, we rocked each other's worlds. We were very open to experimentation, very into each other sexually. Even if the rest of our R had hit rocky patches. As the holidays drew near toward the end of year 2, we were in a much better place. Some close friends of ours had also been instrumental in getting us to realize that we had a good thing, and that marriage should be something we considered (separately I might add they "hinted" at this).

The female of our close friend couple was a realtor and started pushing me to buy a house. So I started to look at houses, and made sure my soon-to-be bride was included in the house hunting. And that's when I proposed, right after new year's, just a couple of months shy of our 2 year dating anniversary. She was over the moon, and we started to plan a wedding, and at the same time found a house and started to make plans to buy it, and to close out the leases on our separate places.

We got married that spring, and I was surprised at how much I loved the idea of being married. And then reality hit me. Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex. It was like a switch had been hit. Within 2 months I started wondering if I had made a mistake. And my NGS started to kick in and I started to act hurt and pouty about it. When we did have sex it felt like she was doing me a favor. We fell into an awful pattern of once every other month, that would extend to two months. Into three-four months. I think the first 2-3 years of marriage we averaged once every 6 weeks, and that is probably liberal.

About 3 years in she wanted to get pregnant, went off BC, and for a couple of week it was every other day. And she got pregnant right away. We were thrilled but I also worried that meant the end of the fun. And then 3 months in she lost the baby. It was awful. Worst thing we ever went through, and that includes both of our sitches. After a few months we tried again, and again, she got pregnant right away. And this time she went full term and had our daughter.

The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement. The only time we had any physical/emotional interaction was the 3-4 times a year we had sex, and even then the emotional part was quickly fading.

Then the fall of 2005 the first sitch happened. I've documented much of that in my threads, so I will make this brief, but she reconnected with a guy she knew in Jr High, and started an EA that was quickly heading toward a PA when I discovered it and confronted. She immediately said she wanted to work on the marriage, and we pretty much brushed it under the rug and moved forward.

Things were briefly better. I had reengaged emotionally the sex even picked up a bit for a while. But a year on we were back to a similar sexual cadence, and my disposition was slowly devolving back into what it was before. She tried to find things that might fix it, I was pretty uninterested in any efforts at that point. I figured the rest of our R was pretty good, other than my surliness, and we would just deal with it. She was never going to want it, and she could only bring herself to condescend to do it every 2-3 months. We actually had a couple of spells of over a year!

And then I got a job that was requiring long hours both at the office and at home. At one point I was literally working 100+ hours a week. This caused me to self-isolate. I was in my office or bedroom alone anytime I was home. It started to even affect my relationship with my daughter. And even after I got a new job that was requiring only 40-45 hours a week (for more pay I might add!) I was still unplugged and isolating almost all of the time I was home. WHen I did come out to interact it was to complain about things not being done, and to be snappy and short. And this continued until that fateful day of 12/23/2017. My W and daughter had gone Christmas shopping. I was home alone and the movie Unfaithful came on. And the way the W was acting in the movie got my suspicious because my W was acting similarly. I checked her Facebook Messenger and found the evidence of another EA........

The interesting thing is that over the years, when I would try to talk to her about the sexual problems, the discussion always went the same. "I am broken" she'd say. "I don't know what is wrong with me." "I need therapy." She had a couple of incidents with family members and older men close to the family that she thought caused some of it. But she had no answers, and she never took the time to get into therapy. She had in the first few years of our marriage and the therapist was awful, so she was gun shy about therapy again. The cycle was we'd go weeks with no sex. I would complain. She would say the above. I'd get more angry and resentful. Finally she'd cave and we'd have not very fulfilling sex, and the cycle would start again.

The last time we had sex, a few months before BD 2017, was awful. Afterward I literally felt like a rapist. While I hadn't raped her (she consented) she laid there and made it known through body language that she was not into it at all. She was obviously TRYING to send that message. It made me never want to try again until after our sitch was resolved and things were in a much better place. I never want to feel that again.

Hoch, and others, I hope this helps. SSM are ticking timebombs....BD is coming you just don't know when.

[BL42]

Steve85,

Thanks for sharing. As I reflect on the relationship with my W, I can related to a lot of what you write.

Then I met my W. There was an immediate spark....She found herself single from her latest for just a few months at this point...Within months she was hinting at wanting to get married.

My W exited a long term (7 year) relationship just a month or two before we met, whereas I had dated but no long term relationship in awhile. We quickly had a spark and quickly progressed in our relationship with my W certainly wanting to speed things along.

I am a very conservative, low-risk kind of guy. I had been a Dr. Laura listener for years by that point, and if you know Dr. Laura she advocates a minimum of 2 years dating before marriage. So I had a two year dating requirement in my head.

I proposed to my W 1yr after dating, and we got married 1yr after getting engaged. Perhaps waiting 2 yrs would've fleshed out these issues before a bigger commitment.

I should point out, and though my belief system today run counter to this, our sex life was off the charts during all this time. Even during the rocky second year, when we would see each other, we rocked each other's worlds. We were very open to experimentation, very into each other sexually.
...
We got married that spring, and I was surprised at how much I loved the idea of being married. And then reality hit me. Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex. It was like a switch had been hit. Within 2 months I started wondering if I had made a mistake. And my NGS started to kick in and I started to act hurt and pouty about it. When we did have sex it felt like she was doing me a favor. We fell into an awful pattern of once every other month, that would extend to two months. Into three-four months. I think the first 2-3 years of marriage we averaged once every 6 weeks, and that is probably liberal.
...
The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement. The only time we had any physical/emotional interaction was the 3-4 times a year we had sex, and even then the emotional part was quickly fading.

Our sex life initially was intense and exciting, but reflecting as I have these last 9 months, I recognize things waning and some mild frustration towards the end of even the first year. I wouldn't say I started wondering if it was a mistake after two months, we got along fairly well otherwise without many fights, but the frequency certainly diminished over the years which caused me to be frustrated and irritable at times.

The interesting thing is that over the years, when I would try to talk to her about the sexual problems, the discussion always went the same. "I am broken" she'd say. "I don't know what is wrong with me." "I need therapy." She had a couple of incidents with family members and older men close to the family that she thought caused some of it. But she had no answers, and she never took the time to get into therapy. She had in the first few years of our marriage and the therapist was awful, so she was gun shy about therapy again. The cycle was we'd go weeks with no sex. I would complain. She would say the above. I'd get more angry and resentful. Finally she'd cave and we'd have not very fulfilling sex, and the cycle would start again.

Interesting. I distinctly remember my wife saying "I don't know what is wrong with me." at one point. I should've empathized more and handled that statement better. She also told me "I am broken" after BD.

The last time we had sex, a few months before BD 2017, was awful. Afterward I literally felt like a rapist. While I hadn't raped her (she consented) she laid there and made it known through body language that she was not into it at all. She was obviously TRYING to send that message. It made me never want to try again until after our sitch was resolved and things were in a much better place. I never want to feel that again.

There were several times when we had sex but she was obviously uninspired and uninterested, making me feel unwanted.

Hoch, and others, I hope this helps. SSM are ticking timebombs....BD is coming you just don't know when.

Steve85 - My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? Sometimes I wonder if my W acted so loving and sexually to "ensnare" me (for lack of a better word), and then to turn it off and act as she really wanted to once she was married. But...is it something you (and I) did to cause that, which I can improve upon for the future? I tend to think the lack of the sex life caused me to get frustrated and pull away, but maybe in her mind (and your W's) it was the opposite. In other words...what came first, the chicken or the egg? And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

[LH19]

BL,

I’ll chime in here and give you my opinion based on research and personal experience. When a woman feels safe, heard and understood her legs open. When she doesn’t her legs close. It’s that simple but men typically fuch it up because they are terrible listeners, horrible at understanding woman and are not congruent with their word which causes the woman to feel unsafe and the legs close. You master those three things to where it becomes natural to you and not an act (fake it until you make it), and you will have all the sex you want. Ain’t a more hornier person alive then a middle age woman lol. She’s just painfully waiting for a man who has it figured out.

[BL42]

LH19,

BL,

I’ll chime in here and give you my opinion based on research and personal experience. When a woman feels safe, heard and understood her legs open. When she doesn’t her legs close. It’s that simple but men typically fuch it up because they are terrible listeners, horrible at understanding woman and are not congruent with their word which causes the woman to feel unsafe and the legs close. You master those three things to where it becomes natural to you and not an act (fake it until you make it), and you will have all the sex you want. Ain’t a more hornier person alive then a middle age woman lol. She’s just painfully waiting for a man who has it figured out.

That makes sense and certainly gives me areas to work on but how would you explain the phenomenon Steve85, I, and many men describe whereas we had great sex lives while dating which then quickly falls off shortly after getting married? Is it the men all of a sudden doing something wrong/differently after the wedding, or are the woman just performing in a way to get a man to marry them and then turning it off / reverting to what they ultimately wanted?

Also...in the case of my W (and I assume others) I know for a fact it's not an issue with them and AP/OMs. She's ramped up considerably. Is that just the initial temporary state while the excitement is there or while she tries to reel in another man and ultimately will revert back and cause issues down the road, or was there something inherently wrong with me they're doing better I need to address personally?

[LH19]

Well I’m sure it was many factors but most men get complacent after marriage and they stop courting their Ws like they did while dating.

It’s very primal for a woman to attract a male with sex. This could be what your W is doing.

[Sage4]

This is a fascinating conversation and I wanted to add some thoughts from a female perspective. I too was a LD partner and instigated a SSM in my M. And much like all your partners, the beginning days were very hot and heavy. My partner also was/is a NG.

In the beginning, the pursuit factor played a strong role in the initial attraction. Prior to M, both parties worked hard to attract and maintain that alluring je ne sais quoi. But sometime after M, for me after kids, both partners became complacent. The security of the R meant that it was easy to take each other for granted. And as a woman, the obligations of house, babies and work exhausted a lot of my resources.

H found me attractive and was eager to keep things hot. In hindsight, a few factors led to our SSM:
1. He failed to speak my love language
2. There was no more pursuit: he was steady and loving, but I didn’t feel like the hot young thing he was initially attracted to and to relive our hot and heavy days, I needed to be lured back to that mental landscape. He was too easy and available.
3. Sex felt like a chore after taking care of all the other chores in my life. It became one more thing that I needed to ‘give’ to another person.

The remedy was more than just taking me on dates or telling/showing me how much he loved me. The remedy was to inject a little bit of the pursuer/distancer dynamic into the R. It wasn’t enough that he stopped asking it of me, I needed to feel that I was going to lose him. His confidence spiraled and that made it even more unattractive to me. I wanted someone to dominate me, be the strong, manly, knight in shining armor, sweeping me away from the mundane. He leaned on me to be the caretaker of him not only physically, but emotionally, which was a turnoff.

Women approach sexuality from their minds, not their nethers. We require a certain headspace to get into that sexual place.

My story ends differently because H ended up leaving me. And during the waning limbo of our MR, we recaptured some of those early days. But I could have been a WW if I didn’t have so many children to care for during the days of our SSM, so I can see it from both sides.

Being a man only a fool would leave means reclaiming that self-confidence and detachment (in Steve’s sense of the definition he speaks about earlier in this thread). Nothing is more attractive than both parties feeling like they have to work a little for the R. When you have to work a little, or you fear the loss of your partner, you are less likely to give up on your investment.

[Sage4]

I also just want to stand up for women in the ‘ensnaring’ commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can’t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don’t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don’t call it ensnaring.

[SteveLW]

Steve85 - My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? Sometimes I wonder if my W acted so loving and sexually to "ensnare" me (for lack of a better word), and then to turn it off and act as she really wanted to once she was married. But...is it something you (and I) did to cause that, which I can improve upon for the future? I tend to think the lack of the sex life caused me to get frustrated and pull away, but maybe in her mind (and your W's) it was the opposite. In other words...what came first, the chicken or the egg? And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL, her and I had that discussion multiple times, the chicken and egg thing. Did get back of desire cause my bag behavior or vice versa. As with all things I think the truth is in the middle. She didn't want to keep up the pre marriage pace and then I started to act poorly. Which exasperated her lack of desire which exasperated my bad behavior. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy

However, I would also bring up things we used to do, and she admitted that she did those things because she wanted to be a cool girlfriend". Which brings me to Sage....