I may be asking boneheaded, “still not getting it” questions above.
Part of my NGS and perfectionism (both recovering BTW) is my tendency to think, re-think, and re-re-think about what’s been said/typed and my own responses. I’m learning that being a NGS is all about picking apart conversation for nuances about how to respond more “correctly.” It’s exhausting. Communication should be clearer than that.
As part of my recovery I’m going to start letting myself be that dunce more often. If I don’t get something, I’m going to be ok looking stupid and admitting I’m not getting it. This in itself is new to me.
Hoch, I have been following you since you first posted but I am not sure I have ever written here. But I am compelled to do so now because I think you have done such an immense amount of self-discovery work in the past four months and I am an impressed outsider.
The masculine/feminine dynamic you have uncovered in your M is fascinating. But as Valeska points out, it may be shortsighted to classify it into distinct 'traits' or roles between the male and female. Have you ever explored Carl Jung's theory on anima/animus archetypes? Your W and yourself might have developed an animus and anima imbalance (though it is always a spectrum). I think you would find it interesting in your situation if you were to explore that famine/masculine dynamic through this slightly different psychoanalytical lens.
No matter if you have been DB'd or not, your M is at an inflection point and you are right to explore everything in the process of discovering whether or not what you have is salvageable.
This board is a safe place to try on new hats. Don't overthink your words or how people in this space will react to them. Keep being authentic. It will help you on your journey to deeper self-discovery (ie 'oh wow, lots of people said the same thing, I must be on the wrong or right path here').
And from my (new-ish) to DB perspective, I think you are doing a lot of the right things. Trying new tactics, owning what works and discarding what doesn't. At the end of the day, you will be a better person for all this, no matter what the outcome.
I very much appreciate your viewpoint. It’s so hard to measure if what I’m doing is working (or any of us really), because the target keeps moving. Some days I can’t tell if I’m having a negative effect, or if her moods are just all over the place for other reasons. Probably both.
Thank you for the kind words on self-improvement. I’m definitely heading in that direction, and being direct and honest and willing to look stupid are all new territory for me. “Be right, do right, act right” is a script that has (not) served me for years.
I’m trying to digest and assimilate much of the good feedback here with a couple of paradigms: my situation is different just like everyone else’s, and some (many) if these rules are hard and fast.
However, my intuition is telling me there’s a mismatch somewhere along the line. One, she’s not a walk away wife. Two, she’s not a wayward wife. There is no OM, and really, there is no Other Life. She’s not driving away from me into the arms of another man, or into the promise of a better life. If anything, she’s driving away from me into the mouth of the abyss.
I really am wondering if I was actually BD’d. (Maybe I was, maybe I’m dumb, both are ok. New day, new me :)). It’s not like she (apparently) has fantasies about disappearing into a better life. It really feels to me like her threat of divorce was akin to saying I’LL BLOW US UP IF YOU MAKE ME FUNCTION.
She has stopped caring about... anything really, except her obsessive focus on a side project that has never made money. We are already $1k in the red every month, and just yesterday I discovered she’s blowing 100’s of $ on phone games. There is no plan B, she’s not building a better life or escaping into fantasy. Or another man’s arms.
That’s why I’m really concerned about the “withdraw emotional support, your old marriage is dead, make her miss you” tactic. I honestly, truly think that will not work. The DR book even has a chapter about the depressed spouse, and it states that (paraphrasing) a depressed WAW is a special situation requiring different tactics, many of which “go beyond the scope of this book.”
Still, I’m DBing, I’m following the rules as closely as possible. I’m GALing. But I feel like I need a specialized plan here. Has anyone on these boards dealt with a. Severely depressed WAW? Is there any further reading I can do on this?
I am interested in the animus/anima dynamic, for certain. I will be researching it.
I don’t immediately have concerns with the masculine/feminine energy terminology, but I can see how it’s confusing, misleading, or outdated. Particularly in cases like your Valeska, where the same energies can exhibit regardless of gender. I think you’re right that they’re more akin to integrity/boundary roles.
Whatever the terminology, my wife was basically the consummate beta all her life, always suppressing her desires for those around her to the point of being impossible to pull an actual opinion out of. Me, a stuck egalitarian Nice Guy, becoming increasingly frustrated over the years, because “im not going to enforce my will, WHERE DO YIU WANT TO GO FOR DINNER for christ sake?” But since childbirth, she’s been an out-of-control, f*ck everyone, f*ck you for trying to help, angry monster, and my reaction has been to become frazzled, depressed, and stressed beyond belief like a triage nurse on their tenth cup of coffee.
Regardless, she went out of control and I was not TAKING control. The right terms will come as I pursue them. I am finding one of the only common threads in my list of “things that work and things that don’t” is that, when I put my foot down and live my life (I’m taking off for a while/my family is coming for dinner, you can be here or leave), the more she settles down in her “it’s everyone else’s fault” rage bubble and starts to resemble a human.
The hardest part for me, honestly? Being that ON all the time. Outwardly, I’m trying to be the one Taking The Lead. Inwardly I’m like... WTF am I doing?
Again - I am speaking from the hip and it’s starting to feel good. Not combing my responses for clarity. Go me.
Anyway, with the lens I’m looking through now, she went bathsh!t nuts (for a variety of reasons, some good, some not), and I was so afraid of Male Controlling (with a Capital MC) that I didn’t stand up and say, “wow, this sh!t is NOT ok, in my home or toward me or my kids. You need to get your house in order.”
This doesn’t shirk my 50% of the MR responsibility (I’m seeing I’ve f*cked up left, right and sideways). But it does hold her to account for hers.
I’m going to stick with animus/anima terminology, I think it’s the most inclusive. Anima in this term being submissive/feminine, animus being dominant/masculine.
Yesterday I did a lot of research on that sexual polarity, which is something I wasn’t very familiar with. All day, I leaned into it hard; I was in my animus the whole day. Not being unkind or rude, but being direct, decisive, and taking action. And surprisingly (unsurprisingly?) she responded. The energy I got from her was one that was very willing to fall in line and be led, at least insofar as how the day was structured and how I intended to go about it. She became more apologetic and agreeable.
Today has been a bit of a different story. Part of my journey is learning to calibrate - I’ve gotten into these states before of being direct and decisive, but like a toddler on a bike I always wobble and fall over before too long. Often it’s because I swing too hard toward decisive and end up cold or dismissive - since decisive is not my natural state, I quickly fall into a caricature, then I get nervous and buckle.
Right now I’m a bundle of nerves and I’ve swung back to fearful for my marriage, as well as deep loneliness. It really is a rollercoaster and I’m trying to figure out how to straighten it out so I have more control.
Ultimately I want to be able to maintain decisiveness without veering into dominance
Today my wife mentioned to me that in assessing our 5 year old, she took a test for adult autism. Of course it’s inconclusive until checked by a professional, but she scored a 7 out of 10 on the Aspergers (now outdated) scale.
She has long suspected that she might have some autism spectrum traits, and I have had my suspicions... but it just hit me like a ton of bricks to hear that she actually placed that high.
The reason this hits me so hard is that I’ve long worried about not only her willingness to return to a semblance of a full, reciprocal relationship, but also her CAPACITY. This just hits me really hard... it gets me right in that little pocket of hope that I keep close by, that she might not ever be able to return to the woman I love. Or perhaps that she never was capable of being that person.
I do know that she loved me deeply and unconditionally for years. We built our life on that. But in my suspicions, I’ve read many accounts of people married to Aspies who say after a major life event (childbirth, etc), a switch was flipped and they never came back. They all say the same thing - even if you think it might get better, dont walk, RUN away from that relationship because they will never love you back the way you need.
I’m holding on to hope so hard here folks. I’m just having a very hard time seeing it right now. The future feels bleak.
Today my wife mentioned to me that in assessing our 5 year old, she took a test for adult autism. Of course it’s inconclusive until checked by a professional, but she scored a 7 out of 10 on the Aspergers (now outdated) scale.
She has long suspected that she might have some autism spectrum traits, and I have had my suspicions... but it just hit me like a ton of bricks to hear that she actually placed that high.
The reason this hits me so hard is that I’ve long worried about not only her willingness to return to a semblance of a full, reciprocal relationship, but also her CAPACITY. This just hits me really hard... it gets me right in that little pocket of hope that I keep close by, that she might not ever be able to return to the woman I love. Or perhaps that she never was capable of being that person.
I do know that she loved me deeply and unconditionally for years. We built our life on that. But in my suspicions, I’ve read many accounts of people married to Aspies who say after a major life event (childbirth, etc), a switch was flipped and they never came back. They all say the same thing - even if you think it might get better, dont walk, RUN away from that relationship because they will never love you back the way you need.
I’m holding on to hope so hard here folks. I’m just having a very hard time seeing it right now. The future feels bleak.
Hoch, let's go back before BD when things were relatively good between you. Now imagine that your W was killed in a car accident.
How would you go on afterward?
LBS gets so hyper-focused on holding on to their spouses that they go into "deep despair" about the prospects of that never happening. The problem with that is that we live in an imperfect world. YOU have a be a whole individual because there is no guarantee that your W will be there after this next minute. So stop obsessing about what you cannot control (whether she has the capacity to reconcile and piece), and start preparing yourself for what comes next no matter what!!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I’ve had a bit of an internal breakthrough recently, I think something clicked and I’m starting to “get” detachment.
At the same time I’ve been learning a lot about what Brian Begin from Fearless Man calls releasing, or letting out stored emotions in the body. It’s very similar to Buddhist practices I’m used to, but releasing is also something that is just starting to “click” for me. I’m realizing how much stored trauma I have in my body, and I’m learning to let it out a bit at a time and make space for whatever is... not trauma. Courage. Hope?
Took the kids for a road trip yesterday to the mountains. Stopped for not one but TWO ice cream cones, hamburgers, and took grandpa along. We hiked up the side of a mountain and threw rocks as far as we could down the side. My kids kicked up dirt clouds and we found cool sticks. Halloween was fun, we stayed in and ate popcorn and wore costumes and watched old cartoons.
Last week, I decided to take time off of work each day to be there for my older son’s school lessons. I figure - let’s say we split up, I’d have them a few days or a week at a time anyway, and I would need to arrange for schooling. So while we’re NOT split up, I might as well make the time NOW. My wife noticed I was being more present and asked, “why are you suddenly getting more involved with the kids?” I didn’t think, I just said “I’m making some changes. There are some things I don’t like about myself and I’ve decided to become a better father.” That ended the discussion on a confused note.
Last night she texted me at midnight (I was asleep, got it this morning) that, to paraphrase: “I sense something major has shifted in you (us). I feel like you’re shielding the kids from me, taking them out places and getting them ice cream, like I’m the bad guy/bad mother for not doing that when I’m out with them. I’m bothered you took them to a mountain without consulting me during Covid.” (Which, I did tell her - but I was being a bit catty about the destination at first and she interpreted that as me, I don’t know, shielding my decisions from her because she’s a bad mom? Anyway, mistakes made on my part, and lesson learned.)
But what I find interesting is the “I sense something has shifted in you/us.” My first instinct is that detaching is finally starting to work. This felt like the first little 1% of her realizing the game has changed and she doesn’t like the loss of control. She also said in her message that “she is up against tons of challenges and just trying to be the best mom she can, even though she’s human and is failing, and she wants me to know she’s trying her best.”
There was a lot of victim hood in that message, a lot of poor me, but what I heard was “something is different, you’re acting different, I’m losing control and I don’t know what to do.”
Analytically, it worries me, makes me feel like I’m pushing her away and this is me somehow cutting ties slowly. As per the DR book though, my gut is taking this a s a good sign that the balance has shifted and she’s unsure of my emotional state.
