Confused but committed, Part 1

[SteveLW]

So were you supportive? Or did you pout, feel sorry for yourself, and withhold things from her (emotional connection, etc).

This is what I’ve struggled with since day 1 - meaning, when she started to pull away completely after she became pregnant with our first son.

I’m sure I did the latter, and I’m sure it was out of fear of losing her affection, losing the connection, losing everything. But what I’ve struggled with ever since is, how do you be supportive when someone shuts you out emotionally and avoids you?

That’s not rhetorical, I honestly want to know. I didn’t understand it then, and I still don’t understand it now. And how do you offer support when you yourself are completely depleted?

Again, you are focusing on her and her actions. Hoch, even if she emotionally shut you out, there had to still be opportunities for you to support her. Whether it was "I've had a terrible day with S5 today", and then you had the opportunity to say "I'll take him for the evening, why don't you go have a spa night." Or something similar. I was in your place. I know my attitude was "You've been home while I've been at work all day....deal with it!" We can always come up with excuses from selfishness. But surely there were ways you could still have been available to her emotionally, and showed her that you were there for her.

[Hoch]

Steve85 -

You’re absolutely right. I could have done that much more. I did do it a lot, but clearly not enough.

My first instinct is to do that now, which I know is faulty. To set time aside to watch the kids for her to go out. The problem isn’t that I don’t give or support - it’s that I overgive, get nothing back, and get resentful. From what I understand this is classic NGS that I need to kick in the butt.

[may22]

Hi Hoch,

I wanted to chime in quickly. First, you are going through an incredibly difficult time and I just want to offer my empathy and support. It sounds like more than any human being can handle, and you're doing amazingly. I think Valeska's post to you above is gold and I'd really focus there.

I'm not a psychologist but your wife does sound deeply depressed. I'm not sure that I agree with Steve that had you immediately agreed to D that she'd have suddenly started dressing nicer and become more interested in sex. I don't know that standard DB methods are going to be all that helpful, truly, in terms of moving her in one direction or another. She may need your support more than she needs your detaching.

However-- her healing is her work, and your healing is yours. I wholeheartedly agree with others that you need to figure out how to protect and support yourself through this and that is where I would place my focus. Place your own oxygen mask on first. I like your 180s, GAL, and detachment plans-- they all look great.

I was the LD spouse in a SSM pretty much since our second child was born and I truly just didn't want to have sex with my H at all (or anyone). I flinched away from any physical touch because I was afraid it could lead to sex. I did not realize how much it affected my H because I was so enmeshed in my own perspective. On this one, I would say-- don't take what she is saying (we'll never have sex again) as fact. That is how she feels right now. Once (if) she deals with her depression, perhaps you can get to a place together where she's willing to work on her disinterest in sex. And, for what it is worth, rediscovering your sexuality after motherhood for those of us who have experienced long periods of low desire after having children is a huge gift.

You might read Emily Nagowski's Come As You Are if you want to learn more about how female sexuality works and what might be going on with your wife in this arena (beyond her depression, which could be a major factor, or THE major factor, as well). It is definitely not as simple as women are interested in sex for the purposes of connecting with a partner. I think that is a factor in doing it, sometimes, because we know we should and/or we want to connect, but it is a lot more complicated than that in terms of actually experiencing desire. Anyway, it might be a helpful read for you, or any man who is interested in supporting his partner's sexuality.

Note-- if you do get the book, keep it one hundred percent to yourself. If she knows/thinks you're reading up on female sexuality and desire, that is pressure, pressure, pressure and to be avoided at all costs. I just recommended it if you're interested in learning more about it.

Hang in there. One day at a time. You've got this.

[Hoch]

May22 -

Thank you for your kind words. They meant a lot to me, truly.

I have had a whirlwind day, folks. Just mentally whipping around like a flag in a storm - one minute ready to call it off and end the marriage, the next feeling like I have so much work to do to try to repair it. But at the end of the day, I experienced a sea change - something major shifted last night, in me, and I’ll explain. I’m glad I have you folks to talk to, because you understand these situations.

Hopefully my coming to grips with how I’m applying this advice will help someone else not make the mistakes I have.

May22 - I think there’s truth in what you said - even as everyone here says “every newcomer thinks the rules don’t apply and their situation is unique,” I DO think normal DBing is causing damage here. I can feel it. My wife is DEEPLY depressed. And much of her complaints over the years have been that she’s drowning under some extreme circumstances (so have I). I do NOT agree that she would have found her sexy side had we divorced - it’s just as likely she would have committed suicide (she tried once before).

I’ve mentioned that I feel a tone shift between this site’s advice and the DR book - the book is more hopeful, geared toward reconciliation, whereas a lot of the advice I’ve seen and read leans more towards “f*ck her, show her what she’s missing.” (Note here: I am still very thankful of everyone’s advice. It could well be that the tonal shift I’m sensing is my own inability to interpret the advice I’m given through the right lens - we can all only work from the perspective we have).While I agree that a more hard-nosed approach can be a useful tool, I know whenever I’ve tried to apply that way of thinking it has pushed her deeper under and widened the gulf of resentment. Not only is my wife depressed, she’s also stubborn as hell - she will fully stand in the flames to prove to me that she doesn’t have to follow anyone’s advice. She will burn to prove a point - she’s always been like that, and it was one of her attractive features initially.

I’ve tried to apply the letter of the law, specifically these rules:

* don’t initiate conversations
* try to do as little for, or with, your partner as possible
* always be upbeat in their presence and when asked, say “nothing is wrong” with a smile.

I think that, or how I was applying that, was hurting me in many ways. I just learned about Nice Guy Syndrome a few days ago. The book is in transit, and yesterday I listened to several podcasts with the author. Something struck me in that advice - the fact that the Nice Guy is deeply dishonest, and hides even the simplest or most benign truths (I’m hungry, I’m horny, I don’t like that soup) in order to gain female acceptance. It was like being struck by lightning reading that.

In this relationship, I’ve always been the “honest one” - the virtuous one, the Boy Scout, the direct one. She has been the dishonest one - unclear about her preferences, apathetic, unassertive. But I’m applying the basic detachment rules - act like everything is fine, be aloof, don’t start conversations - I realized I was lying. Lying about how I was feeling. And I realized that I have always been lying, in the Nice Guy Syndrome sense - lying every minute of every interaction, saying the right thing to avoid conflict. Pretending everything was ok and playing “hard to get” was just More Of The Same: lying.

Yesterday was bad, relationship wise. I was getting avoided gazes and grunts in response. My W was angry and avoiding me. So on a whim I took one of the author’s bits of advice and applied it: be totally honest.

Last night was my shift with the kids while she went out to work. It was hellish - S2 was smashing, screaming, hitting, climbing furniture. When my W got back, I said the unthinkable: “W, I’m glad you’re back. I was going to lie and say everything was fine, but the truth is this has been awful. S2 is being a nightmare. I’m exhausted.”

Calm, direct, grounded, honest. You know what happened? She relaxed. She became more feminine. “I know, he’s been like that all day! What do we do?”

The rest of the night was like two aliens talking. I was grounded, honest. Made eye contact, teased her a bit. Talked low and level, and I didn’t hide or obfuscate. I sagged when tired. She made eye contact, laughed, smiled, and relaxed. She joked and admitted how frazzled she was.

What does this mean? I don’t know. I do know I need to drag this nice guy out and beat him with a stick - he’s killing me.
Realizing I have been just as dishonest as her has been a revelation - as is realizing, for whatever reason, that some of those rules can NOT apply the way I’ve been interpreting them.

Maybe they are exceptions, maybe my W is different, or maybe this is me fundamentally misunderstanding the advice. Perhaps this is the path I’ve needed to take to really understand DBing.

But last night I went to sleep with a calmness and masculine energy that I don’t think I’ve ever felt. And I KNOW I felt attraction from my wife. It may still not work out - our situation is untenable and must change. But in the meantime I have work to do.

[Steve_]

I just read NMMNG the day before yesterday. I was wondering the exact same thing! I was dishonest about how I felt for fear of being rejected if I told her how I felt. Essentially I was very responsible for teaching her that she did not need to meet my needs and that those needs were not important to me.

She has shown some improvement with me doing this so far:
1. Validating her, I disagree that the divorce is the right thing to do but I "understand" her.
2. not pursuing her/asking what shes doing.
3. being honest about how I feel (discussing OR when she asks but never otherwise)
4. Not hiding that its destroying me but also not asking her to stop (This I think made the biggest change in her) she sees me doing everything to give her space and understand her but also sees that im fighting it hard to not be destroyed by it. She told me its breaking her heart. Early on when I acted "happy" and totally cool about the D she was like "oh okay he didn't care, guess I don't either." She was totally indifferent to me for the first 30 days or so. Now she touches me, she has kissed me twice and said "I just need time."
5. letting her come to me like a cat, don't chase the cat or you will get claws/resistance. Be safe for the cat and pleasant when the cat sits on your lap. DO NOT CHASE THE CAT.

[Hoch]

Steve_

I’m heartened to hear about your experiences. I find this very interesting, as this is a whole new world for me. Honesty to myself and to her about my emotions. I’d like to hear more about your experiences.

This is Day 3 of getting rid of the Nice Guy. Things feel different.

I’m still waiting for my book to arrive, but I’ve been eating up content like The Fearless Man on YouTube. Conversations with my W have been very smooth, and she actually acknowledges me when I enter a room. I can’t overemphasize how different that is. She’s also been sharing her state of mind in conversation a lot - when I prod her, make a joke, or increase the conversational tension (by not shying away from it or the pauses - the good kind of tension that I’m learning about), she relaxes and says “I’m so tired” or “I don’t even feel human.” I’m hearing her, really hearing her. She’s TIRED, in her soul. But there’s a want to not be - she’s not resigned.

I will say this - I’ve been much more masculine, grounded, and comfortable in my conversations. I’m starting to enjoy this tension, with words and body language. She says no to something, I stand my ground. BUT - here’s the kicker - I don’t do it with anger, but rather with humor, or a little teasing. That was the mistake I’d always made - when I tried to compensate for shying from tension, I’d throw the lever into Angry Mode. Now I’m sitting in the tension, and she’s responding.

Guys, there’s an actual red-blooded woman in there. And this is someone who’s been a cold-hearted Ice Queen for years.

Now that I’m shaving off my Nice Guy Syndrome in sheets, I’m seeing a different way the last few years played out. From my perspective, the raised-by-a-feminist, egalitarian perspective, I’ve been trying to hold up my end of a 50/50 partnership and getting shafted. But from a masculine/feminine energy perspective, our life together (rowdy kids, finances, job) put me to the test as a man... and I failed miserably. I got stressed, shrank, and cowered.

No, she hasn’t treated me with a modicum of respect for about 2 years. No, that’s not ok - that’s a sh!t thing to do to another human. And that will come into the balance if we reconcile, or whatever you call it from an in-home not-separation. But she is definitely responding to my picking up the slack and becoming grounded and comfortable with my male-ness.

If I had to put a finger on it, I could swear what I’m hearing in her body langauge is “what TOOK you so long?”

[Hoch]

Update -

Ok, I need to proceed with extreme caution. I could use advice.

I’m enjoying my newfound confidence. I let slip in conversation a “you look beautiful today.” It was genuine - she did, and she was smiling. This is where I need advice with this new recovering NGS before I stick my foot in something.

Being NGS is all about covering up how I’m feeling, which I’ve done for years. In being totally honest, it felt natural in that moment to say she looked pretty, because it’s what I was feeling, so I said it. Her reaction was a little stunned - I haven’t complimented her in probably 8 months since we’ve been on opposite sides of the emotional glacier.

Surprisingly, the rest of that conversation she did a lot of smiling and being open, which tells me she liked it (she certainly didn’t close off like she normally does). Later in the day she mentioned out of nowhere that she’d like to dye her hair and have her brows done - she hasn’t cared about her appearance in over a year.

In conversations the last few days, I’ve definitely found myself pushing into her space a lot, energetically. In an almost-flirty, confident, male charisma sort of way. Mostly to see if she’d push me back - and she hasn’t. She likes it and is opening up. This is new ground - I’ve been a classic nervous guy for years.

Here’s where I need advice - this could quickly lead to pursuing, or could be considered pursuing already. I’ve been advised by everyone that you can not resolve a sitch by pursuing. However, she is unmistakably open to the type of energy I’m pushing out.

What should I do with this? We haven’t resolved anything, and she is nowhere near apologizing for the way she’s acted. But there’s... chemistry there that has been missing for years. This is a head rush, so I’m taking it very slowly.

On standby, please advise.

[Hoch]

Hoch,
It seems to me that you are getting lost in the minutia of all it. Step back. I always found that DBing can be about loving your wife or it can be used as a manipulation tool... the motive is based on the individual. Everything has two sides of the coin - it's about which side of the coin you want to play. Let's assume love and go from there.

It is loving to your wife and you to help with the chores REGARDLESS of what it leads to. Period. Not up for discussion
It is loving to your wife and you to say "no" at times in order to eliminate resentment in your heart.
It is loving to your wife and you to set a boundary if your wife is speaking to you in a way that is hurtful (blaming, criticizing, etc)
It is loving for your wife and you to self care... both of you. If she doesn't support your self care - it is still your responsibility to do it. (Ie: GALing)

Thank you, I’m starting to see what you mean. I definitely love my wife, but I’m finding more and more that I have strong manipulative tendencies - hence the NGS. I’m tearing them out as soon as I’m finding them. But I’m learning the roots go deep. DEEEEEP.

Yes it is okay for do some acts of service. No it is not okay to do them if you are going to resent her later. No it is not okay to do them if it enabling a toxic behavior.

Honestly - so much of you is trying to get that perfect blueprint on how you should be but Hoch - every situation is different. I believe Sandi gave you some great advice around getting help with those kiddos. Have you looked into that yet?

I’m starting to learn that balance now, and I’ve practiced saying no to unreasonable requests at least once per day. It’s so hard to stay in that uncomfortable tension after, but I’m learning.

We are pursuing any childcare options. It’s so hard with the pandemic - and cases are on the rise. We can’t risk hardly any in-person. But we have school and are setting up behavioral services, and I’m getting my parents over as often as possible to see/watch them.

I am sorry you have had so much hardship. It's just plain sh!tty. But i do think if you were to address some of those issues (the financial hardships, your kids, the move, etc) - it will be much more effective to your M than you trying to decide if you should do the dishes or not.

JMHO

Thank you for your kind words. Finances are still a bind, but since the move to a cheaper place they are leveling out. Pressures are starting to ease off, bit by bit. The smashing and throwing has gone WAY down, I’m so happy to report.

[Hoch]

Steve85 -

The more i think about what I said, the more it rings hollow. My wife may be depressed, but I don’t think our situation is an exception. Rather, I think I’m still just fundamentally misunderstanding the DB approach. Plus I figure with 7500 posts you probably know what you’re talking about.

I ran across this post in the R2C quotes thread:

My wife felt like the last two weeks, where I had dropped the rope, that I was becoming cold and detached. So it's a fine line.

It just means you don't get it yet. Dropping the rope doesn't mean you are cold and detached. It means her problems are her problems, you are busy taking care of yourself, you don't get baited into a fight, you will let her come to you when she is ready, you are responsible for your own happiness and you won't waste energy on pursuing her. Be a cat whisperer.

I feel like this is the first time I GET it. Maybe I’m dense. Maybe I just needed to hear the correct word combination.

“It doesn’t mean you are cold and detached, it means her problems are her problems.”

I’m gonna keep posting in case my bumpy road helps someone else get it faster. I think that’s what I’ve been doing differently the last few days, besides owning my masculinity - I’ve been doing ACTUAL detaching/dropping the rope, but finally owning myself and staying open And available. Everything up to this point has been closing off and shutting down, which of course pushes people away.

EDIT -

It also shows just how many LAYERS of BULLSHIT my NGS has, in that even when I strip them away by the dozens, I still think being distant and closed off is honest and available. More lying to myself and wrapping myself in obfuscation. I’ll get it, but I’m gonna need to bring a backhoe to dig all this out.

[Hoch]

I’m posting this quote from R2C’s thread because I think it’s more and more applicable to my situation. I need to read this over and over.

Do you understand this? Your wife is not attracted to you. What would make your wife want to jump your bones? What does she need from you?

She needs space and time. I have to keep repeating that to myself. Space. Time. Space. Time. She's not leaving as long as I give her those two things.

No, not exactly. You can give her all the time & space in the universe but if you appear to be a weak sister to her then there is no way she's going to find that sexy! Don't you get it? She wants you to be sexy!

You are a 28 yr old man who is wanting to have sex with his wife....really badly. It has you to the point that you can't think of much of anything else. (Hey, I use to be married to a 28 yr old man.)

Anyway, you need to think about how you were when she met you and fell in love with you. She really wants to feel romantic love for you, but she can't. Maybe she doesn't know why....and maybe you don't know why....and maybe that C doesn't know, but honey....I know. She has another man on her mind (and perhaps more) and all she has to do is have a heart to heart with you and then you're convinced that everything is lovely. She can wrap you around her little finger, b/c you "want" to believe her. You "want" the M to be good.

So, here's the thing.....first of all, don't believe anything she tells you. Stop asking questions that she's going to lie about.

Next, set boundaries of the things you cannot tolerate in your M, b/c she needs to respect those boundaries or get out. Read Coach's thread on boundaries.

Now the big thing....work on a do-over for yourself. Get in shape, get a new look that says...."Look at me girl, you would be crazy to leave a man like me!" If you don't look cool and sexy, then find a friend who'll tell you what to do to get there. Polish up your manners, personality, social life and faith (not necessarily in that order).

Get your focus off of her. Act as if you are not hurt by what she does b/c after all...you are a man who is confident and you don't have to be reassured every day that she still loves you. (BTW,don't tell her you love her while all this stuff she's doing is going on...and don't tell her just to see if she'll say it back).

Get out of that house and find something to fill your life. Leave when she is there. Look smoking hot with a big smile, walk out the door with a "see ya" and no details of what your plans are. Do you get what I'm saying here?

She needs to see a strong, sexy, man who is desirable. When she said she felt like you were another child, that told the story right then and there. Stop whining, pleading,fishing, etc.

Now if you want her to want you? You act as if you could care "less" if you ever had sex with her again. Notice I said with her. Take cold showers, take care of your own needs....but you act as if she's your kid sister visiting and you're really trying to just be "nice". If you do this the right way....she'll be chasing after you. But this other stuff she's been doing?.....she's playing you, that's all.

I need to think back to who I was when we first got together. There was undeniable sexiness between us all those years ago. But I was different. I just need to remember WHO I was.