Confused but committed, Part 1

[Ready2Change]

Hi Hoch,I will give my 2 cents:

I have gone deep on reading those quote threads. I think I’ve gone thru 7 of them and am still trucking.

Lots to digest.

Let me try to work through this, because I feel like I’m taking in all the advice I’m hearing - I’m open to all of it - and it’s pushing/leading me in several different directions which are incompatible.

Being aware of the different directions is the important part. Making a logical decision on what direction you want to take is better than continuing down a path blindly.

Largely I’m confused around how I’m supposed to be acting or what I am/am not supposed to be doing to turn my sitch around.

Think about this: Who are you trying to control? Is that person behaving the way you want? If not, what behaviors would you like to see? If that person is her, you are using the wrong measuring stick. If that person is you, then you are in the right frame of mind.

I’m also confused by the repeated statement that following the rules/steps will seem counter-intuitive and feel wrong.

I am not sure it should feel wrong, but in most areas, I believe the behavior is counter intuitive. Something about your belief system got you to the bomb drop. You followed your intuition up to this point. Obviously that was not working.

Well they do seem counter-intuitive and wrong, and they’re also pushing her further away.

Are they pushing her away, or is she moving away regardless? Again, make sure you are using the right measuring stick.

So common wisdom here is that I shouldn’t suddenly start doing housework because it will be too little, too late for her. However, I’ve noticed when I do she is genuinely surprised and thankful. Should I do it or stop? Is that beta male behavior that will get my no respect, or the thing which will turn this around?

You both should be doing your fair share. You take the trash out, not to get a reaction from her, but because the trash needs to be taken out. Depending on if she is SAHM, your balance of household chores should be different.

I’ve also noticed when I do small things for her and act appreciative of her small acts of service (her love language), she lights up.

Perfect. Is this the response from her you desire? Then keep doing it.

But I’ve been warned about getting myself friend zoned with her

You do not want to be friend zoned. You can be her friend and lover. This all comes down to your behavior and the way you interact with her.

being aloof and playing hard to get is the better option.

It is just an option. One way of behaving out of many. Timing is important with this.

I should be striving to make her feel like she’s going to lose me?

Again, this just one possible option and depends on what state your relationship is at.

Look, if it’s not clear, I’m just really, really lost. It’s been a really, really sh*tty three years, with young special needs kids, financial problems, three moves, wildfires, and now pandemic.

I can't imagine. Hopefully things will get better for you.

Constant screaming and throwing and smashing,

Has this gotten better? Is it still a concern?

and my wife pulling away and blaming EVERYTHING on me no matter what I to do hold everything together. I’m tired.

Is she really blaming you? Iss she sharing her feelings with you and you feel blamed?

[quote]I’m admitting I know nothing about how to attract a woman anymore, least of all my wife.[quote]Most guys don't. The good thing is you can learn. Ultimately it comes down to your behavior. How you interact with her. Attraction and seduction are two different things. I float between them.

[LH19]

Unfortunately Hoch once you get the bomb dropped all the options suck so you have to choose the least suckiest option that works for you. Standing is hard especially if your W is in an affair. I can’t remember if yours is or she just has someone on her mind. It’s almost impossible for a LBS to function normally in an in house separation. Just know that nothing you do is likely to make things better but you can certainly make matters worse. You W sounds very immature and must be a joy to live with right now.

Stay strong Hoch!

[Valeska19]

Hoch,
It seems to me that you are getting lost in the minutia of all it. Step back. I always found that DBing can be about loving your wife or it can be used as a manipulation tool... the motive is based on the individual. Everything has two sides of the coin - it's about which side of the coin you want to play. Let's assume love and go from there.

It is loving to your wife and you to help with the chores REGARDLESS of what it leads to. Period. Not up for discussion
It is loving to your wife and you to say "no" at times in order to eliminate resentment in your heart.
It is loving to your wife and you to set a boundary if your wife is speaking to you in a way that is hurtful (blaming, criticizing, etc)
It is loving for your wife and you to self care... both of you. If she doesn't support your self care - it is still your responsibility to do it. (Ie: GALing)

Yes it is okay for do some acts of service. No it is not okay to do them if you are going to resent her later. No it is not okay to do them if it enabling a toxic behavior.

Honestly - so much of you is trying to get that perfect blueprint on how you should be but Hoch - every situation is different. I believe Sandi gave you some great advice around getting help with those kiddos. Have you looked into that yet?

I am sorry you have had so much hardship. It's just plain sh!tty. But i do think if you were to address some of those issues (the financial hardships, your kids, the move, etc) - it will be much more effective to your M than you trying to decide if you should do the dishes or not.

JMHO

[Hoch]

Unfortunately Hoch once you get the bomb dropped all the options suck so you have to choose the least suckiest option that works for you. Standing is hard especially if your W is in an affair. I can’t remember if yours is or she just has someone on her mind. It’s almost impossible for a LBS to function normally in an in house separation. Just know that nothing you do is likely to make things better but you can certainly make matters worse. You W sounds very immature and must be a joy to live with right now.

Stay strong Hoch!

Thank you all for the kind words. I will respond to each but I should address this one first.

No, to my knowledge my wife doesn’t have anyone on the side (though nobody can say with 100%).

The big problem for me for years has been her low sex drive and near complete disinterest. It started to get better before kids, but it has been a huge issue since our first son, bounced back a little enough to have our second, and then dropped off completely. The big revelation at BD wasn’t just that she wanted a D, it was that she wanted one because she “Is never having sex again.” From her: “I’ve never been interested in sex, I’ve faked it for 15 years, and now that I have kids I feel that part of my life is over. And since you obviously need sex then this marriage is doomed because I’m never changing my mind.”

For me, with two small kids and having just moved my entire family to pursue my dream job, this was the most gutting thing I could possibly hear. Words cannot express how much this revelation tore me apart. I felt betrayed, trapped, and completely stuck.

After the initial shock (but not the hurt) wore off, this started to sound off. For one, I know she’s had sexual interest in me in the past, even though she does have a very low desire. A man can just feel these things, and I have to trust my feelings on that. Second - what? Who makes blanket statements like that?

To fill out the picture, since having kids, my wife - who was always very athletic and cared about her looks - she has (I hate to say this) completely stopped caring about herself. And I don’t mean this in just the sexist “wow she let herself go” manner, but clinically - she gained weight, stopped shaving, barely sleeps, eats like crap, took up smoking, wears stained or torn clothes, refuses to work (as we approach financial ruin), doesn’t keep friendships, and doesn’t do anything fun or social, and yells at anyone and everyone who tries to connect with her or help her. She has let the animal litters pile up and won’t take them to the vet despite evident health problems, and these animals were her little babies before kids.

To me, the scene this is presenting is someone who has decided to lock herself in a tiny box while yelling “GO AWAY!” to the entire world, myself included, in any way that she can.

The sex thing hurts. It hurts and it tears at me. At BD, as I was saying or doing anything that would get her to stay, I told her that I would stay hoping her sex drive came back. She said “what if it doesn’t?” And I said that would be ok, we would make do.

So, that coupled with the fact that we just moved and she is very unlikely to have any affair partners (even digital) and is giving no energy to her looks or attractiveness, gives me pretty good indication that she is far from having anyone in the wings, and is much more in the “f*ck this world and everyone in it, just leave me alone” mindset.

Wow, this whole story hurts to share.

One more thing I should add - the times “I want a D” and “I’m never having sex again” come out is whenever I pressure(d) (previous to me DBing) her to change her behavior. And it came out so strangely that it gives me the impression it’s a last-ditch coping mechanism. Let me give you an example (this was 8 months ago, thru text):

Her: (something nasty, like “fine we will do what you want, we always do”)
Me: hey, I understand you’re upset, but that’s really unkind and I don’t appreciate being talked to that way.
Her: I don’t know how to make this marriage work. I’m never having sex again so I want a D.

Huh? We were discussing something simple, like what to eat or who would watch the kids. She was nasty, I stood up for myself, and she said she’s never having sex again. In no way were we discussing sex. To me it felt like someone with their hand on the nuclear button. “If you ask me to change I’m gonna blow us both up!” It’s just very, very strange to me.

[SteveLW]

Sounds like a severe bout of depression.

So here is a question: It sounds like you were in a pretty miserable spot prior to BD, why did you want to hold on so tight? Was it fear of losing where you were comfortable? I find LBHs in particular, even if unhappy want to keep what is comfortable.

As far as what she says "I am never having sex again." What I hear when I hear a WAS say that is "I am never having sex again....WITH YOU." I know that hurts, but these things are biological in nature. Men have a sex drive that tells them "I WANT SEX". Women have, many times, other purposes for wanting sex. To connect with someone new. To remain connected to their current spouse. Etc. But I have no doubt that if you had agreed to D, her attitude would have changed. She would have suddenly become interested in her appearance, in losing weight, in dressing better.

This may hurt too, but since she feels like she capitulated and stayed, now she is back to where she was before: unhappy, depressed and just kind of riding life out. I saw this behavior with my W after our first situation in 2005. The depression came on after we reconciled. Though neither of us did the work and therefore in short order we found ourselves in the same dynamic pre-BD.

That led to BD #2......12 years later.

So I still see a lot of focus on her. What is Hoch doing to improve? How is GAL, your 180s, and detachment (self-differentiation) coming along?

By the way this: "At BD, as I was saying or doing anything that would get her to stay, I told her that I would stay hoping her sex drive came back. She said “what if it doesn’t?” And I said that would be ok, we would make do." THAT IS A TERRIBLE THING TO SAY. Essentially what you said was "I am so afraid of you leaving that I will gladly agree to anything you say in order to make you stay." Now you are reaping that which was sown.

Imagine if you had said: "I am not interested in remaining in a sexless marriage. So unless you are willing to work on that, trying to fix that with IC, MC, etc. Then I agree that we should get a D." You agreed to something you couldn't live with out of fear. This is why we try to get LBSs to not act out of fear.

[Hoch]

Steve85 -

I’m definitely seeing now that that was a terrible thing to agree to.

Why did I want to hold on so tight? I’m asking myself the same question. I’d like an answer myself.

The pressures I’ve been under (and was at the time) are enormous. I know everyone has their own burdens to bear, and don’t pretend to compare, but I’m a pretty resilient guy and the last 5 years nearly broke me.

A combination of factors led me to believe it might be (definitely was? Definitely wasn’t? Possibly?) circumstantial and would pass, so there was (might be? Could be?) hope. (Eg, countless postpartum websites, many accounts of sex drive disappearing for up to 3 years post baby #2, etc, and they all said to the husband, “hang in there, it’ll be ok!”).

We had just moved our entire life for a dream job I’d been trying to get for 15 years. I finally got it, but the financial burden of the move and cost of living, and some unforeseen expenses coupled with her stout refusal to help with finances, meant we were sinking fast without a net - we were looking at bankruptcy within months. In addition, many of our marital problems stem from dealing with my special needs son (5), who is loving but defiant and hyper on the best of days. His energy and outbursts would drag us down and pull us apart and make each of us blame the other for differences in parenting (we had no social network and no help, and couldn’t afford any) and as a result I am deeply saddened that my son didn’t have a very happy life because of all the tension in the house.

What that meant was, when my wife gave me this impossible choice, if I had agreed to a divorce, there was a definite worst case scenario - one of us would have to move out, which would mean I wouldn’t get to see my sons when I wanted, and I needed to be there for them to be their rock in the face of her irrationality and anger outbursts. Since we couldn’t afford our place together, we certainly couldn’t afford separate places, which would mean a move to someplace cheaper - which would also mean me losing my dream job. So, in short order, there was a real chance that I would lose my life with my kids, my home, my dream job, and my wife all in one fell swoop. I had (have) no savings, and nothing to fall back on. There was a period where I contemplated suicide.

So all I had was parenting websites saying “a dry spell happens, just be supportive and it’ll be ok,” and to be the best dad I could, I said “ok, I can be loving and patient.”

Wow, I can’t believe it still hurts to even discuss that situation.

What matters now is what I do going forward. I’ll admit that on some days, I’m patient, but rarely I almost get to the point where I’m so fed up with her not working on herself, brushing me off, and completely ignoring my needs that I’m tempted to say “I know I said I would wait but I can’t, I want out.”

Wow. That’s terrifying to type.

[SteveLW]

Steve85 -

I’m definitely seeing now that that was a terrible thing to agree to.

Why did I want to hold on so tight? I’m asking myself the same question. I’d like an answer myself.

The pressures I’ve been under (and was at the time) are enormous. I know everyone has their own burdens to bear, and don’t pretend to compare, but I’m a pretty resilient guy and the last 5 years nearly broke me.

A combination of factors led me to believe it might be (definitely was? Definitely wasn’t? Possibly?) circumstantial and would pass, so there was (might be? Could be?) hope. (Eg, countless postpartum websites, many accounts of sex drive disappearing for up to 3 years post baby #2, etc, and they all said to the husband, “hang in there, it’ll be ok!”).

We had just moved our entire life for a dream job I’d been trying to get for 15 years. I finally got it, but the financial burden of the move and cost of living, and some unforeseen expenses coupled with her stout refusal to help with finances, meant we were sinking fast without a net - we were looking at bankruptcy within months. In addition, many of our marital problems stem from dealing with my special needs son (5), who is loving but defiant and hyper on the best of days. His energy and outbursts would drag us down and pull us apart and make each of us blame the other for differences in parenting (we had no social network and no help, and couldn’t afford any) and as a result I am deeply saddened that my son didn’t have a very happy life because of all the tension in the house.

So it was out of fear...fear of what you'd lose, that made you agree to something you didn't want to agree to. I like the clarity here on why. What I am concerned about is whether or not these are still rationalizations. In other words you feel you did the right thing because of the above. Please try to keep that segregated. Understanding why you made the choice you did doesn't justify the choice you made. As we tell LBSs all the time, all you did was to kick the can down the road and delayed, temporarily, the inevitable.

What that meant was, when my wife gave me this impossible choice, if I had agreed to a divorce, there was a definite worst case scenario - one of us would have to move out, which would mean I wouldn’t get to see my sons when I wanted, and I needed to be there for them to be their rock in the face of her irrationality and anger outbursts. Since we couldn’t afford our place together, we certainly couldn’t afford separate places, which would mean a move to someplace cheaper - which would also mean me losing my dream job. So, in short order, there was a real chance that I would lose my life with my kids, my home, my dream job, and my wife all in one fell swoop. I had (have) no savings, and nothing to fall back on. There was a period where I contemplated suicide.

Hoch, the strong will step up in times of adversity. The weak will sit and feel sorry for themselves. Looking back....which one would you say you were?

So all I had was parenting websites saying “a dry spell happens, just be supportive and it’ll be ok,” and to be the best dad I could, I said “ok, I can be loving and patient.”

So were you supportive? Or did you pout, feel sorry for yourself, and withhold things from her (emotional connection, etc).

Wow, I can’t believe it still hurts to even discuss that situation.

Sounds like you still have a lot of work on detachment to undertake.

What matters now is what I do going forward. I’ll admit that on some days, I’m patient, but rarely I almost get to the point where I’m so fed up with her not working on herself, brushing me off, and completely ignoring my needs that I’m tempted to say “I know I said I would wait but I can’t, I want out.”

More lack of detachment. You are so tied up in what she is and isn't doing, that you cannot see that there are things you can control and things you cannot. You cannot control her. You cannot control her choices. You cannot make someone do what they do not want to do. What you get to control is YOU and YOUR actions. Humans are interesting creatures. We can have refrigerators full of food, cabinets full of food, but we will go in look through all of it, and pine for what we do not have. So while you just enumerated in this latest quoted paragraph a bunch of things you don't have, what do you have that you could be thankful for? I see you talk about a nice place to live, a dream job, 2 kids that love you and that you love. Stop focusing on what you don't have and start to be thankful for what you do have!

Wow. That’s terrifying to type.

I see a lot of fear in you. And a lot of desire to control things you cannot. For instance, you didn't get to control whether or not your son was born with special needs. What you did have control over is how you reacted to his special needs and how you handled dealing with it.

I see you ignored my question about how your GAL, 180s and detachment are coming? Those are your focus areas for right now. How is Hoch going to stay busy and productive? How is Hoch going to self-improve? How is Hoch going to become a healthy, happy individual that moves forward no matter what choices those around him make?

Stop looking at her failings and start DBing (GAL, 180s, detachment).

[Hoch]

Steve85 -

I really appreciate your words. My head is swimming right now, but I will answer your questions in short order.

To start with, my GAL activities and 180s.

180s
* not starting conversations w W
* not arguing her feelings.
* validate, validate, validate (practicing with my kids too)
* never arguing a point.
* doing housework that needs to be done because it needs to be done
* giving W the time she needs away without asking any questions
* being cheerful and upbeat at all times
* focusing on what I do have instead of heat I don’t (I am struggling w this one)
* being assertive rather than passive to bad behavior
* feeling thankful rather than victimized by circumstance
* starting work on getting rid of NGS

GAL activities:
* I bought a record player to get into vinyl music, been wanting to do that for years
* connecting with old friends over shared hobbies
* I picked up woodworking (though this has fallen off)
* hammock time
* making the bed each day (it’s small but important)
* early bedtime and plenty of sleep
* training myself to fall asleep on command (i struggle with insomnia)
* daily walks
* morning yoga, learning tai chi
* weightlifting, floor exercises
* eating lighter and more fruit/veggies
* kicking butt at work (I am up for a promotion)
* seeing family once per week.

Detachment (here is where I struggle the most). Working on:
* not being hurt or affected By her actions or rude comments/brush offs
* not being bothered when she fails to keep a promise (getting up w kids, being back on time)
* not controlling anyone
* being happy being by myself (this one is very hard for me)
* enjoying time w kids w/out W, just dad time

[SteveLW]

Steve85 -

I really appreciate your words. My head is swimming right now, but I will answer your questions in short order.

To start with, my GAL activities and 180s.

180s
* not starting conversations w W
* not arguing her feelings.
* validate, validate, validate (practicing with my kids too)
* never arguing a point.
* doing housework that needs to be done because it needs to be done
* giving W the time she needs away without asking any questions
* being cheerful and upbeat at all times
* focusing on what I do have instead of heat I don’t (I am struggling w this one)
* being assertive rather than passive to bad behavior
* feeling thankful rather than victimized by circumstance
* starting work on getting rid of NGS

Decent list. I would love to see you say "Get rid of NGS" rather than the mushier starting work on getting rid of NGS

GAL activities:
* I bought a record player to get into vinyl music, been wanting to do that for years
* connecting with old friends over shared hobbies
* I picked up woodworking (though this has fallen off)
* hammock time
* making the bed each day (it’s small but important)
* early bedtime and plenty of sleep
* training myself to fall asleep on command (i struggle with insomnia)
* daily walks
* morning yoga, learning tai chi
* weightlifting, floor exercises
* eating lighter and more fruit/veggies
* kicking butt at work (I am up for a promotion)
* seeing family once per week.

Some of these are great. Some are NOT GAL. Concentrate on staying busy. Preferably out of the house as much in the house. THose that struggle with detachment the most are the ones that do GAL the worst.

Detachment (here is where I struggle the most). Working on:
* not being hurt or affected By her actions or rude comments/brush offs
* not being bothered when she fails to keep a promise (getting up w kids, being back on time)
* not controlling anyone
* being happy being by myself (this one is very hard for me)
* enjoying time w kids w/out W, just dad time

Good. IC could really help you with this this list.

[Hoch]

So were you supportive? Or did you pout, feel sorry for yourself, and withhold things from her (emotional connection, etc).

This is what I’ve struggled with since day 1 - meaning, when she started to pull away completely after she became pregnant with our first son.

I’m sure I did the latter, and I’m sure it was out of fear of losing her affection, losing the connection, losing everything. But what I’ve struggled with ever since is, how do you be supportive when someone shuts you out emotionally and avoids you?

That’s not rhetorical, I honestly want to know. I didn’t understand it then, and I still don’t understand it now. And how do you offer support when you yourself are completely depleted?