Yes, there is usually a trigger that pushes the MLCer into crisis - a death, a marriage, the pressures of life, mortality, kids, finances, lost time, lost youth, etc... Long ago trauma(s) during their youth from a person in a position of authority come back to the surface. This emotional torment is ceaseless and unrelenting, a constant pain. The MLCer does not know what is happening to their life, to them, and they become desperate for some relief.
They lash out, they project their pain, they blame - onto you. Their loving spouse. We, LBS, become the target, the source of all their ills. In the MLCer’s desperate confused mind we must be at fault, for their fragile emotional self cannot face their pain. They live in denial, projecting, blaming, and expending enormous energies to maintain their fantasy reality.
Of course this trigger happens quietly and unseen by both the soon to be MLCer and LBS, usually 18-24 months before bomb drop. During this time the crisis is already started and the MLCer is so confused and trying to hold their life together. Eventually their emotional pain exploded and much damage is done.
Most MLCers have affairs, drink, spend, and so on. These running behaviours are common, like they follow a script. They become the opposite of the person you once knew. Their emotions are cranked to eleven and they cannot handle it. So they run, desperate to escape. However, one cannot escape oneself.
The LBS needs to give time and space to the MLCer, for they will take it regardless. Hopefully, with no pressure from the LBS, and plenty of time, the MLCer will see that their LBS has not been “bothering” them for some time. Then, with luck, they will consider that perhaps it is themselves, their life, that is the source of their pain and torment. They look inward and begin to walk the path towards healing.
This exit, this ending of running, this awaking, sometimes has a trigger, sometimes is just gradual (like glacier slow, seriously very slow), and sometimes they never exit, never stop running.
What would it take for a seriously mixed up and confused emotional mind to be pushed towards awaking? It is impossible to tell, for we are not them, we are not experiencing whatever they are feeling. Even the MLCer couldn’t tell you what it would take. MLC is a terrible horrible thing. Their reality is smash and skewed, twisted into a bizarre form in which they are driven to sometimes very extreme ends. My XW threw away her four children like they were old clothes; giving me sole custody without so much as a care, never mind a fight. Although my MLCer is pretty far on the extreme spectrum.
Whether a trigger or gradual really depends upon one’s perception of the time involved. Awaking is usually “caused” by some fateful intervention or karmic happenstance. The relationship with the OP blowing up is a usual occurrence. Such an illicit affair is born from deceit, their relationship built upon sand, and that is a very poor foundation to stand against the storms of life.
As their infatuation dies out, and the shininess of their relationship wears off, life asserts itself. A person in crisis cannot handle life’s pressures or anyone else’s needs or emotions. The affair partner usually becomes too demanding and the R explodes. The MLCer may move on to another person or they might look inward.
Bills pile up, a car accident, a death of a family member or close friend, or other fateful event will take place eventually. Most crisis individual do not handle these at all well. Karma might reach out as well. Illicit and illegal behaviours have consequences, penalties from back taxes, tickets, repossessions, jail, job loss, and so on.
Whatever might happen, it is best to stay clear. Give no reason to have the MLCer’s problems incorrectly projected onto you. Unfortunately, their addled mind can make some incredible irrational leaps and still blame the LBS.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I just live my life like I do when he is not here but we also do all sorts of stuff together, on his request. Just like what a married couple with children would do but no affection. I know in my heart that this isn't quite right altough I currently don't want anything more with him either. All we had together as a couple is dead now, even in my head. But there is still love from my side of course, otherwise I wouldn't be standing.
My question to you: Do I have to put a boundary on this kind of behavior? Do I need to say. We can't be just friends and do all this stuff together and still be married?
Basically, is it necessary to put certain bounderies since we are not a couple, but still married and acting as friends?
Also, is the above behavior Limbo, or am I using the wrong word?
The road back from MLC is difficult and slow.
It is hard to know if they have stopped running. Any OP still around is definitely an indicator of still running.
If they are stopping, starting to reach back, it is a timid and slow process - like a scared squirrel reaching towards your hand. It takes patience and more patience from the LBS to remain calm and still enough for them to feel safe.
Your questions and those necessary discussions will need to be put on hold for a while. This is not sweeping things under the rug, it is deferring them to a better time.
A boundary, as stated from other posters, is for you. It is not to alter or manipulate H’s path.
From the sounds of things a boundary is not required. H comes to you when he feels comfortable enough and you, he, and the kids do family stuff. This is good. Continue to do this.
Does he attempt to go further? To join you in bed? That would be a no. Unless you are sure there is no OW. Even still, I believe more time needs to elapse for him to show his true colours. Believe none of what they say, and only half of what they do.
Your signature line states OW ended Feb 2020. If he has been OP free since, for 9 months, that is encouraging.
Once you are sure of his intentions and the absence of any OW, and there is no cake eating, ensure he is STD free, a non-negotiable stipulation in my opinion. After that, you can consider your sex life.
I would not place your situation within limbo. To me limbo is complete alienation from your spouse, and standing with no sign or reason to. H is spending time with you and the kids, that is not limbo.
You are somewhat indifferent to H, and don’t feel very affectionate. This is ok, and perfectly normal. Your current situation from what I’ve read, looks to be in an equilibrium, a static state of sorts. Perhaps you would like to alter that a bit.
You could suggest doing something together. A sort of date. This may not work, that’s ok. Pressure might still be too much for him. If you try something and it doesn’t work, don’t fret, it may work later. Give plenty of time before trying again.
To me, you are feeling a void from your indifference towards H. Those protective walls we build around ourselves during our spouse’s crazy behaviour are pretty strong. I believe you need to start lowering those walls a bit. Allow yourself to feel a bit again. In this context, yes you are in limbo, IMHO.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
We can't be just friends and do all this stuff together and still be married?
Why not?
This is just a step upon the path.
Be patient and keep moving forward.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I heard that sometimes there may be a trigger out of MLC, But I have not seen that too much here
Some MLCers seem to start coming back around and connecting again, some do reconcile
But I would not count on a quick reversal Once in the tunnel it can last 2-7 years or more depending on the person
I also think when they get deep into alcohol, destructive relationships, debt it may be harder for them to find a way out Many a MLCer will create debt and drug abuse this needs to be watched
I think the one thing that may help the MLCer is if they realize they need help and can get to a qualified therapist or 12 step program and work through issues
But Usually they don't realize they have a problem and intsead they project it on to us
Keep working on you watch him- his actions watch the finances
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Nice to meet you and thank you very much for your detailed explanation. I have waited a very long time to subscribe myself on the forum as I wasn’t ready for it and honestly a bit afraid for the unknown but I must say it really helps me to receive advice from all of you.
As I understand it correctly you don’t have any contact anymore with your XW, nor the children? I can’t imagine what this must do to you, and to them…
My H has always been a clinging boomerang. As you might have read the trigger was indeed a few years ago.
His first real awakening was because I didn’t want to live anymore in the same house with him as long as he was with OW, I also knew the R already had many up & downs so I decided to kick him out.
From what I understood he lied as much to her as he did to me and “this broke her into pieces”! (his words) That is why he often said in the months after the break-up he felt so guilty because of what he did to here since he loved her so deeply…(the guilt towards me was not really present then)
There were a few break-ups before 02/2020 but it ended finally then. This is something I know 100% for sure. There is no OW in the picture anymore for now, that is why it is so difficult to know if he is still running or not.
Dynamics changed a lot since then.
More open depression for 4 months which is much better now, but I guess that was the OW withdrawal. The drinking behaviour is still much more than before MLC, but I assume they still do this during depression/withdrawal as well, or should I say, when still in the tunnel.
Huge change is his sporting behaviour. He always used to love athletics, completely stopped for 2 years and chose a completely different sport but since OW break-up he slowly picked up the athletics again which became more frequent and now in a very fanatic way. He states it helps him thinking.
When he talks openly, which sometimes happens, he still says many things that don't make sense and are very incoherent. Also very contradictory sometimes. That is why I sometimes say things that make little sense in response. (I guess I do this in defense as I don’t want to feel the pain anymore, I’m past that stage…)
Frequent statements are:
- I’m very unhappy, I know it’s me and I know what my issues are but I don’t know how to solve it yet. I only know I have to do it alone, nobody can help me with that. - It doesn’t work anymore, nothing works - I can let go of my friends and family too easily, I didn’t know I was like that (this scares him) - I would better not be here anymore, the world is better off without me because I feel so guilty towards you and the children - I love you but it won’t work anymore between us, because too much happened and I don’t know if that feeling of real love will come back. - I don’t need a sexual relationship, don’t want affection, I’m not interested in all of that (can’t give it either), I just want us to be friends and do things together with the kids.
Latest statement:
- It’s like I’m stuck in a tunnel and slowly it’s getting better but I’m definitely not there yet
That is the time when I also say contradictory things. 😊
Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that my emotions are not under control at that time, I’m fully detached and I always stay very calm but I sometimes, unwillingly, want to influence the process, although I know I can’t…
If he says things like I just want to be friends I say this is not enough for me, that I want more in a relationship and I will take some distance. (then I don’t…)
He sent a message when he left yesterday to thank me for always being there for him, that he knows it is not easy for me and therefore he wants to express his respect and admiration.
I answered that I’m very thankful for those nice words, that it is indeed not always easy but that I’m there for him since he needs somebody who shows understanding and is there for him in difficult times.
Can I be more contradictory…😊
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
My H definitely know that the problems lies within him since his first awakening although he bounced back several times until he finally broke with OW.
Since that time he stopped projecting the problem on me.
The biggest issue is that he doesn't want to go to a qualified therapist since he had a really bad experience with one when he was a teenager. Due to several trauma's he has been to a therapist from the age of 8 until he was 12 and then another therapist when he was 18 but that was not good at all and he swore he would never go again.
That is why he says he has to do it on his own, although he also opens up to his stepfather lately. I don't push anymore. Did this in the past and didn't work at all.
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
So he is abroad again and the 1st week he was back there was a very strange week.
His grandmother and mother both fell ill and were diagnosed with COVID. Since his mother is single and was not allowed outside, I made the necessary arrangements to provide her with food and drink. He really appreciated this. He also felt very guilty that he wasn't here to help.
Suddenly I got a message in the evening, for the first time in 20 months, that he misses us all very much (normally he says this sometimes about the children, now it was the first time that he included me as well) I answered very briefly that we missed him too.
That same evening, he also called his father (biological) asking for forgiveness for all the lies he told him the past years. He also said that one day he hopes they can be best friends again, as they have always been in the past.
After a few days the atmosphere turned again and slid completely back into the ME mode. This took about 4 days.
From then on a very normal man who is concerned, sends a few messages every day, asks if I have everything I need, etc.
I have the impression that the pendulum moments are still present but that he starts to act more and more in a normal way. He also starts skype sessions with other relatives. The moments when I see "a normal man" last longer and longer.
Maybe I see it too positively, but I am simply set up that way :), and unfortunately I cannot and do not want to change myself in that area.
Next week it's Holiday and me and the kids are going on a hiking trip with our best friends. Looking forward to that. The children don't talk about anything else anymore.
Take care!
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
It was the most intense and emotional week I have seen with him so far. One day incredibly friendly and the man I used to know, the next cold and absent, then depressed and crying again, the next day happy and smiling, few hours later suddenly his 16-year-old self comes at the surface (and over and over again). How can a person have so much emotions in 1 week? It really is a mystery to me and I assume for all of us...
The weird thing is that I was very emotional myself for 1 year, and now it seems like the tables have turned. I can keep very calm about the whole fact, although I am glad that this is only for 1 week because this would not be maintainable for the children. It even went to the point where we were watching a movie about schizophrenia one night and 2 of the kids came to me afterwards and told me it was exactly their dad but to a lesser extent?
There have been very open conversations again, but as I mentioned in the past, it is only possible if he has had a drink. I have now also asked him how it possible that he only talks openly when the brakes are loose after a drink and he told me that it just doesn't work, that there is a barrier and that the debt is too great to talk about it when he's completely sober. I have clearly asked him to work on this and to try to drink less and he validated my concerns (let's see the actions in the near future...) I also try to get into the conversations more and more and feel strong enough to ask things that I would never have dared before, even when they are things I would rather not hear. He also no longer shies away from questions.
He was affectionate again for the first time in a long time, is this a certain fear he has of losing me? I don't know.
He was very physical at times, and we have ML a few times again. Is this good? Probably not, but I didn't feel like I wanted to stop this as it felt really good to me. I am 100% sure that there has not been OW in the picture for 10 months now. As I have already said, I have really reached the point where I have completely disconnected from him emotionally. The strange thing is that I can maintain this even after physical contact and know that there is absolutely no certainty that we will get out of this together.
I already live a long way in the moment itself, do not look ahead and maybe that's why I can have peace with this?
He also did take the initiative himself and asked if we would come over to the country where he currently works to spend the holidays with him. I have told him that this is OK and the children are very enthusiastic but I have told them that their father is not there yet, this to save them from disappointment if he does not put the word into action. I let him arrange everything, do not think it is up to me as I don't want to push.
There is one detail I would really like to share with you that he specifically said as I would like to ask if this can mean anything. I do know that in principle I can only believe half of what they say, so can you please share your thoughts?
He told me that for a long time he thought he wanted a divorce (never before has he used this word during the entire crisis but apparently was in his head for a long time?) and that he has therefore accepted the job abroad to make a lot of money as he knows he has to pay a lot to me. Then he said his feelings are shifting slowly the last 2 months and that he no longer wants this. He wants to feel again and love me like he used to, he really wants to work on this. I then asked him if this meant that he might want to gradually rebuild thr relationship, his anwser was that he didn't know but wanted to try. I have not gone into it further.
I know one thing for sure, he is far from being out of the crisis but maybe all of the above means something...
@Job, one of the stories I have read about reconnection and touch and gos states it would be good to read the stories of NGU, DebM and JeanS but I can't find these. Is it possible to post the links. I would really love to read this.
Thanks in advance.
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
As I understand it correctly you don’t have any contact anymore with your XW, nor the children? I can’t imagine what this must do to you, and to them…
XW severed ties with me; pretty harshly and firmly. As if a MLCer would do different. A person in an emotional crisis is struggling deeply with all kinds of demons. One particular is depression. Deep and dark. They usually speak in negatives and absolutes.
XW’s running included running from her children as well. He big surprise speech at Thanksgiving supper included “I’m leaving. DnJ, you get the house, the contents, and the children. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.” My memories of the next few hours and days is a bit hazy and mixed up. I, and everyone seated around the table, were in a state of shock. From eye witness accounts, and there were seven (nine total including me and XW), I immediately turned white as a sheet. My blood pressure probably dropped like a stone, which starved my brain for oxygen. I have recollection of XW and I talking in the living room, but with background and items that don’t exist in my house. Some cannot exist in my house they’re too big.
My mind was flaying away, trying to rationalize what just happened. I mean the “impossible” just occurred. I consider very few things impossible, I see the possibilities everywhere. Always have. I believed it was impossible for XW to do what she did. I had absolute faith in her. So this was a fundamental break for me.
I’ve got these weird little memories tied to those strange conversations with a woman who, to my at the time viewpoint, suddenly changed and became a completely different person. One such memory, while I am sitting on the couch with XW sitting four feet away from me on the foot stool, listening to her willingness to throw her kids away for a chance to finally be happy, there is beside me, in front of the TV, a huge green intake duct with a fan spinning within it. There are wear marks where the fan blade has rubbed against the shroud, scrapping the green paint down to the shinny silver metal.
Another is while discussing and pleading for marriage counselling, I looked at the wall behind me to the left. On this wall were three pictures, silhouettes of the kids in pairs, the two oldest and the two youngest, and W and I. (I’ve since removed the picture of her and I). Anyhow, that night there is, was, an award, a plaque hanging on the wall instead of the pictures. Lol
I know these memory, and I would say, are not real. But that’s the funny thing, they are real. They are real memories. So that begs what is reality? Of course, I realize this. And for me reality has always been something affirmed with feedback. I could imagine and pretend I am a millionaire, even believe it. But feedback from the bank and the bills would snap me back to “reality” pretty quick. Haha. And for these memories, the memory is valid, it’s even true, and real; just cannot be affirmed and therefore an illusion from a stunned shocked oxygen starved mind struggling to grasp what the h3ll just happened.
With this in mind it is easy to see how someone in a crisis could fall down the rabbit hole and believe their new “reality”. And with running from such pain, they would ignore and fight against non-affirming feedback. MLCer’s will expend tremendous energies maintaining their fantasy realities. They must. They absolutely have too. For they are so consumed and in crisis that rational feedback cannot register. They are emotional and driving by their irrational internal forces. Coping skills are not well developed in these troubled emotional immature souls.
Kind of got off topic didn’t I?
My kids and I are very close. We visit and talk quite a bit.
XW and the kids seldom see each other or converse. And XW doesn’t speak to me. I was thrown away, and divorced in two months after BD. Her and I have spoken at the graduation of my youngest son and the graduation of my daughter. There hasn’t been a text or call from her for almost three years now.
My kids are doing great. XW/Mom is a stranger to them. That is completely accurate. Mom turned into XW; the opposite of who she was. She is a stranger to all of us. She doesn’t share much about her life. Shows little interest or understanding in the kids’ lives. They are all university students and she is stuck in a few personalities.
Her usual personality is from around when she was 18. I recognize and remember her mannerisms and behaviours from back then. They are just more brash and bold. Rub it in your face kind of thing.
When XW gets agitated, pushed, or otherwise held emotionally accountable she regressed to a girl of about 13. And with further pressure she becomes a young girl of seven. OMG. It is incredible to witness such a thing. To be speaking to someone and they “shift” mid-sentence.
These shifts have been witnessed by my best friend and my children. One such time, within weeks of her BD, her and I were negotiating at the kitchen table. The 18 year old brash bold brat was smugly exercising her (believed) superior status and position in life. I challenged her on her view of never loving me. And she started to deny and mid-sentence became herself. The women, W. Her eyes sparkled, her face immediately became flush with colour, and her tone of speech changed. Me and BF were stunned at such a thing. She spoke about how we do love each other. Started another sentence, and morphed back to that brat. Her eyes turned gray, skin darkened, and she picked up right where she left off on that same sentence 30 seconds before. Very spooky, at the time, not so much now.
I and S22 have spoken to the 7 year old. Oh my, that is a weird thing. She looks like my wife, sounds like her (more or less), but she is seven! This girl can’t do math. Converses like a seven year old. Uses language like a small child. It was so sad to see such a broken mind. This particular personality only has been seen a few times, and not in years now. Maybe that’s a good thing, maybe it’s not. I don’t know.
In ways I have been extremely lucky, and not just financially. My parents and my children all were witness to her surprise BD and her moving in with OM three hours later. Man, what a night that was! If they hadn’t seen this, they would never have believed it. This is so out there.
My kids have seen their Mom’s troubled soul. The woman before them is not their Mom. It’s her body, but an alien lives inside, with Mom possible trapped.
We all have compassion for her. And indifference. We have forgiven her. My children following my lead and example. Asking questions and getting clear honest answers from me.
It was incredible painful and difficult. I hurt terribly. So much was compressed into such a short timeframe. I would not wish this upon anyone. However, I have been extremely lucky and blessed. It has been an incredible opportunity, one few people (thankfully) ever experience. One plays the hand they’re dealt.
Your H, from your accounts, is exiting the tunnel. He pendulums back and forth, as one would suspect he would. He has plenty to face, and not just his recent behaviours of the past few years, the original pain and torment of his youth must also be faced, reconciled, and accepted within.
You see this happening. You see H, the man, and then you see him disappear again. Perfectly fine. Don’t fret and don’t push. H needs to feel safe. He is very much still in crisis and rather frail emotionally. He is at times outside his tunnel. A tunnel which hid him, confused him, kept him in the dark from his own past and the consequences of his actions, and really importantly protected him from admonishment and retribution. Tunnel walls protect as well as trap.
H needs to have a safe place to land. Let him lead the pace. His eye are adjusting to the bright light outside the tunnel. Let that light be you.
Don’t worry when he scamper back in. Such a light is hard to look at when you’ve been in the dark for so long. Have faith and continue moving forward. Peaceful, gentle, compassionate, and forgiving. The scared squirrel is looking about; no sudden movements my friend.
I think you know this already. I’m just encouraging and reinforcing your example. Things will move slow and you may wonder and want to push it along. Dig deep for patience. Really be patient. H’s path is about him, and must happen at his pace.
The last week’s many flips between H and 16 year old H are a good sign. When they start going into the tunnel, way before BD, they are being driven by forces they cannot understand. Torments from their past, buried a long time ago, are surfacing and demand recognition. This internal pressure drags them back to that time, and then lets go. Back and forth this tug of war happens. The person doesn’t understand and compartmentalizes it. Remember they have poor coping skills and are emotional stunted and will not seek help. For if they could, they would not be in a crisis.
Bomb drop happens well after this has started. Many many months of compartmental living has occurred by that point. They have suffered silently and hidden from the world. They blame us for not recognizing what they are going through. And blame us as the cause of what they are going through.
Bomb drop, is when everything reached such a level that it explodes within them. They destroy their life trying to run from all the wrong and pain they feel. We seldom see the preceding events to BD as they happen. Looking back we usually can see some signs.
Exiting the tunnel is the opposite of those events that lead to BD. The MLCer is experiencing two (or more) lives again. They are timid, ashamed, scared, fearful, guilty, feel regret and remorse, confused, and so on. One can see how any extra pressure will put them over edge and thrown them back into the darkness of their tunnel.
Keep conversations non-judgemental and non-threatening. The MLCer hates themselves. As they peek out they are seeing the damage they caused, and the hurt and suffering from their hand. They do not need further punishment, for they are punishing themselves enough. They will feel like a monster. They need compassion, forgiveness, and a beacon back to reality.
That is not to say they get away scott-free. No, there is penance and things to atone for. Question to be answered, and discussions to be had. However those must be put on hold until the MLCer is well beyond the tunnel’s exit.
Yes, like everything else along the LBS’ path, this is unfair. We need to be the bigger person and do more of the heavy lifting - still. In time H will be more and more comfortable and able to discuss with you. Dig for patience.
Let H lead the conversations. For the most part talk about topics he brings up and when he brings them up. Of course you can further a discussion and ask direct questions as well. Remember your goal in all this, and that the time line is beyond your control. If H pulls back, that’s fine, drop the subject. It is him following you, not you pushing him.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
He was affectionate again for the first time in a long time, is this a certain fear he has of losing me? I don't know.
He was very physical at times, and we have ML a few times again. Is this good? Probably not, but I didn't feel like I wanted to stop this as it felt really good to me. I am 100% sure that there has not been OW in the picture for 10 months now.
It is quite possible and probably that H has felt and feels like what it is to lose you. That is a very good thing.
You being sure OW is out of the picture is also a very good thing.
ML, is also a good thing. Really, it is. However, do not assign more emotional meaning to it for H than it is. What I mean is keep your expectations really low. I’m sure H enjoyed it as well. That is a good thing. It a binding thing. A healing thing. Safe, comfortable.
H will have emotions well up inside. All kinds of feelings; those previously mentioned bad ones and some good one as well. It is going to take time for him to sort through them and to acknowledge and show them. He will, and does, feel towards you. It comes out in fits and spurts right now; it takes months for the MLCer to settle and feel comfortable within their own skin.
During this time, yes ML. There is no OW. Date, conserve, frolic, cry, hug, and so on. It is a strange path, much like the one you’ve been walking already. It will have twists and turns, backslides, and emotions. You are standing and know your headings, follow them, believe them.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
There is one detail I would really like to share with you that he specifically said as I would like to ask if this can mean anything. I do know that in principle I can only believe half of what they say, so can you please share your thoughts?
He told me that for a long time he thought he wanted a divorce (never before has he used this word during the entire crisis but apparently was in his head for a long time?) and that he has therefore accepted the job abroad to make a lot of money as he knows he has to pay a lot to me. Then he said his feelings are shifting slowly the last 2 months and that he no longer wants this. He wants to feel again and love me like he used to, he really wants to work on this. I then asked him if this meant that he might want to gradually rebuild thr relationship, his anwser was that he didn't know but wanted to try. I have not gone into it further.
My thoughts:
Acknowledge and validate H’s feeling and the change over the last two months. Tell him you appreciate him sharing his feelings with you. Accept his feelings as his actions do seem to match up.
However, accuracy. H’s feelings are not slowly shifting, IMHO. It is better than that. H’s beliefs are shifting. Feeling change quickly. Beliefs are slowly to change - like over two months. That is very encouraging.
Reinforce his good beliefs, feelings, and behaviours. Ignore the poor ones, for he will test you as well to ensure you are authentic. He will do this mostly unintentionally and unrecognized by himself. He needs you to be stable through this; which you are.
Do not attempt to explain that his beliefs are what are changing, you definitely do not want an argument. It is fine to say feelings. You know different and deeper than he does at the moment. This realization is for you. His realization will come differently.
To further encourage, H no longer wants a divorce. He doesn’t know for sure but he wants to try to rebuild. That would be the expected way back from someone who has done what he has done. Scared squirrel. Scared and opening up. Very nice to see.
I do agree H is outwardly showing movement. For a long time all movement of the MLCer is internal and hidden from the LBS. This gives the impression that they are stuck. Now, some do get stuck, and some are moving unseen. It looks like H was one of the latter.
My suggestion, beyond all that I posted , keep doing what you’re doing. ML, go on that vacation, have family time, rebuilt and reinforce good times, lead by example. Have healthy boundaries when needed and forgive. Don’t sweat the small stuff, in five years, things that are huge right now will not even matter, keep it in perspective.
You are doing really well. Remain patient.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Unfortunately I'm back with much less positive news...
I urgently need your advice.
We went, together with the children, to the country where he currently works and lives during the Christmas Holidays.
It was horrible. I will not go into detail as my message will be way too long. I sincerly thought he was slowly on his way back but he went deeply back into the tunnel.
Reason...99% sure OW2 has come up, I guess since about 1 month.
On the 26th he adviced me we should have a divorce, on the 31th of December I saw conversations on his phone with a new women, somebody who also lives in that country...I was pretty devasted. Asked him to be honest with me but he fully denies he has a relationship with her. It is just somebody who listens to him and understands him. Nothing more...but he did mention it could be more in the future.
I immediately took my distance and said that we would go forward with the divorce now if that is what he wanted. That is has been two years now and if OW2 was involved we could not proceed like that anymore.
Blaming, spewing, etc, all was back. It was like we went back in time to about 1 year ago...
On the 2nd of January we flew back and he said he would leave me alone for a bit now to progress everything and to give me some time to start arranging the divorce.
Today I received a nice message if he could call me. I told him, yes, no problem and so he did.
From the first tone the blaming started again. Why I didn't inform him about how our return flight went, how the children were doing , if I had contact with his family and my family and if I told them about the divorce etc. I stayed calm and told him that we had an agreement to leave each other alone for while to process everything and that if he wanted to know how the children were and the family, that he needed to get in touch with them directly and not through me.
He hung up the phone and send me several messages now that this is not the normal way of doing, that we need to talk about everything together, that he will contact a lawyer now and this lawyer will contact me about expenses of joint accounts, mutual consent before certain expenses may be made, custody arrangement, alimony,...
He completely lost it. I have not answered to these messages and immediately changed all my passwords, took statements of our bank accounts. What else do I need to do?
I'm devasted, what is going on? Is this because he feels he is losing control over me?
Thank you for your advice
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
I’m sorry for the turn your situation has taken. (((Hugs)))
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I'm devasted, what is going on? Is this because he feels he is losing control over me?
Nope. It’s going on because he feels he is losing control over himself.
His behaviour has nothing to do with you. As you stated - He completely lost it.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I immediately took my distance and said that we would go forward with the divorce now if that is what he wanted. That is has been two years now and if OW2 was involved we could not proceed like that anymore.
Good for you distancing yourself from him. Keep that up.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
... he said he would leave me alone for a bit now to progress everything and to give me some time to start arranging the divorce.
Of course he did.
He wants you to do the divorce. For you to be the bad guy.
Nope. Let him do the heavy lifting. Let him own his divorce.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
He hung up the phone and send me several messages now that this is not the normal way of doing, that we need to talk about everything together, that he will contact a lawyer now and this lawyer will contact me about expenses of joint accounts, mutual consent before certain expenses may be made, custody arrangement, alimony,...
When they are riding their high from running and dropping the bomb, they do feel rather in control and powerful. His assertion that “this is not the normal way of doing things” is rather telling.
He has obviously looked somewhat into divorce, and only in the basic concepts and how it positively affects himself. You know, his fantasy good ideas that he thinks will come from it.
The smugness of a MLCer is interesting as well. Suddenly they are wise and experts in divorce and relationships and such. Lol
And, as predictable as ever, as soon as things don’t go his way - threaten. MLCer’s will use, and misuse, the legal system to their own full advantage.
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I have not answered to these messages and immediately changed all my passwords, took statements of our bank accounts. What else do I need to do?
First, breathe.
No one ever got divorced in a day. It takes time. You got some breathing room.
Next. Good on you for changing the passwords and getting your bank statements. There is also no need to answer H’s messages. He didn’t really ask anything. He is only looking for a fight to further his justifications. He stated that he going to speak through his lawyer. Ok, let him.
Where to go from here:
Ensure you financial security and protection.
Speak to a lawyer and find out what your rights are. Learn what can be negotiated and what cannot. Ask any questions you have. You are just gathering information and planning a strategy at this point. Treat this as a business deal gone bad.
Do not tell H anything of what you learn from your lawyer. You do not share your playbook with the other side.
Remove half of the funds from all joint accounts and deposit into your own account. Speak with L about this first. And keep good clear records of everything.
That can be its own statement - keep good records.
Ensure all the household bills are in your’s or both names.
Get your own credit card. Remove yourself from the joint one. That probably cannot happen, since it is joint. Pay off the joint card and then cancel it. H can get his own credit card(s) in his own name. (However, in some locales the individual’s debts are still considered martial. Find out from the L what you are responsible for and what you aren’t.)
Keep breathing. Stay calm. (Post - it helps. Lots of good caring people with much hard earned wisdom around here.)
With the business side being looked into, do your work on the emotional side.
I am figuring you are not wanting a divorce. Not pushing for a divorce. That’s good. Keep standing. Stand for you.
Go dark or dim with H.
GAL. Live. Enjoy.
No more cake eating for H! (There is OW2 in the picture.)
Give H plenty of space and time.
Focus on you and your kids.
The path of the LBS is two parts - business and emotions/beliefs. Do not make decisions on either one based upon emotions; use reason, logic, and your values.
Realize you are the most important person in this equation. All the advice is for you, and your health and well-being.
You are doing fine. Keep moving forward.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You are in a terrified panic that I know very well, having been in the same panic many times -- and still getting it every time I see a message from H or his lawyer or the court. I know how to wrestle with it now but it's not easy.
Just remember, H already did all the things you are scared of. Now you are just walking through the ashes of a fire he already set. You lived through the fire, and you got out of the burning house safely. H is still in there, fiddling as Rome burns.
He can threaten many things, but he can't do many of them. He has to get a judge to agree with the things he wants to make happen. And you'll never be able to figure out why he does/says what he does/says so don't even try!
And you don't have to do anything that he asks if you think it's wrong.
And you sure as heck don't have to figure out anything about a divorce! It's his divorce! But you do have to protect yourself and your kids and your share of the moolah. You do have to be true to the good values that you had and have. You do have to fight the temptation to be confused when he tries to confuse you and you do have to fight against despair or bitterness.
Separate all finances and protect your share. No emotion, no worrying about what he will think of you, just take your half wherever you can and protect whatever you can. There is a reason everyone here says that over and over. I am living proof. I didn't want to do anything that seemed divorce-ish so I left everything joint. And now everything is on my shoulders, everything is a court battle, an IRS battle, a bank battle, a child support battle. Because I thought I was respecting the marriage by not protecting me and my kids financially. You respect the marriage precisely by protecting all that you built as part of that marriage.
I know what DnJ is saying, and I agree with it all but I do also believe that your H does want to keep controlling you. He will keep looking for ways to do it, and if he perceives he is not controlling you, it will make him crazy. But it will also make him crazy when he does feel that he is controlling you, so just put it all out of your mind and try to focus on controlling yourself! : ) Also doing everything you can with all your best gifts/powers and then letting God control the rest.
Women who survive abuse are scared all the time and half the time we don't know why. We frantically call our friends, our lawyers, we frantically post here. And everyone tells us to detach or move on or whatever, and no one seems to understand that we are so scared we can't think straight.
A long time back I finally called the domestic violence center in my city. At that meeting, I couldn't stop crying and I kept saying, "I don't know why I am so scared. He never hit me." They gave me this chart about abuse to help me understand why I was so scared. I wrote down each thing he had done that was on that list. I'll paste it here. It doesn't even address the adultery we all experienced. Maybe you'll recognize something from my list in your own sitch and it will help you understand why your response gets visceral.
1. Threatening to leave her 2. Making her afraid 3. Putting her down 4. Taking her money 5. Making her feel bad about herself 6. Calling her names 7. Making her think she’s crazy 8. Playing mind games 9. Humiliating her 10. Making her feel guilty 11. Treating her like a servant 12. Making her feel guilty about the children 13. Using the children to relay messages 14. Threatening to take the children away 15. Making light of the abuse and not taking her concerns about it seriously 16. Saying the abuse didn’t happen 17. Shifting responsibility for abusive behavior 18. Saying she caused abusive behavior
Last edited by Gerda; 01/05/2104:14 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
