Thank you so much for your kind words. I’ve actually been coming into my own in the last few days. I’ve been reading up a lot on distancer/pursuer, and focusing much more on caring for myself and what I want and don’t want. It has been a bit of an awakening.
I’ve also found myself vacillating wildly - as the reading says I would - between wanting her back and wishing she’d just go. This is the first time I’ve felt the tug of “letting her go,” really. The entire relationship has until now been me wishing she’d stay and being willing to do anything to keep her. So this minor shift is a sea change I suppose. But I’m doing it with a kind smile and a happy attitude, which is different.
I did notice within a day of me being “otherwise occupied” but in a great mood, she started fawning over me. I spent a bunch of time in my new hammock - which I wanted to do because it’s enjoyable - and she went out of her way to bring me like 5 different kinds of food I hadn’t asked for. That was strange and new, after 3 years of neglect. Each time, I received it with a “wow, thanks!” but didn’t make any overtures towards wanting to get up or engage. I ate and enjoyed.
I did notice resentment creeping in int he days since, and my detachment became a little sulkier. I’m finding it so difficult to be “detached but happy,” I find myself feeling each snub or unkind word. Which leads to more unkind words from her, reacting to my detachment. I’m really working on that, on the resentment.
One thing with my newfound detachment and boundaries - she comes downstairs and says a happy good morning to our kids, ignores me, and then wants to engage me in chipper conversation about the day. Is it fruitful to mention offhandedly and calmly that i find it unkind not to say good morning? On one hand, it feels like the boundary I would set with a houseguest and something I should get better at declaring. “Hey, it’s unkind to completely ignore me.” But on the other hand, it seems like to goes against the letter of the law with detaching. Set external boundaries for growth? Or set internal boundaries by not letting it bother me?
Would a person that was detached let no good morning bother them?
The answer is no. So rather than try to correct it, work on detaching further. You are already seeing dividends paid in detachment. Bringing you food to the hammock is the exact opposite of not saying good morning to you. So forget it and move on.
Also, a lot of time LBS go into panic "I must save my marriage at all costs" mode. Only to find, that when they've achieved saving their marriage that they realize the marriage pre-BD wasn't all that great and they really didn't want to save it. I went through that bigtime after my 2005 sitch, and even felt that a bit after my most recent sitch. LBSs forget after betting bombed that they were pretty miserable, in most cases, leading up to BD as well. So this is normal. This is why it isn't really about saving your marriage, but realizing the old marriage is dead and the only way forward is a completely new marriage built from the ground up.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Ok. I’m feeling extremely teachable at the moment. I want to learn.
I’m intrigued but confused about the notion of building an entire new marriage instead of reclaiming the old one. I... don’t know how to do that. But I want to.
Help me out with this here, this exchange just happened and I could use advice on what I did wrong or how to proceed.
First off, the setting: in my detachment of the last few days, my normal dismissive, neglectful wife has:
* brought me breakfast while working * bought me a desk plant as a gift * voluntarily discussed her day and previous night’s dreams * joined me in my home-work office to fold clothes under the guise of “being closer to the kids to keep an eye on them.”
These seem small, but I can’t overemphasize how closed off she is, so these are notably different.
The dreams one though, I found interesting as a test case. This morning she voluntarily shared her dream with me, which is a nice intimate, but neutral discussion. As long as I was disinterested, she shared. As soon as I sounded intrigued and asked for more details, she backpedaled out with a “well whatever, it’s not important.” She is EXTREMELY reactive to my engagement, it seems.
But that’s not the interaction I want to ask about. Basically she’s been very kind, and I’ve been aloof for a few days.
Me: Hey I'd like to ask something. On saturdays you go out and work (on laptop, I watch the kids for 8 hrs). You normally take [nice car w carseats]. I would like [nice car] to take the kids on drives, could you take [crappy car w no carseats] those days? [once a week - she has nice car 6 days a week, I literally never get to drive it].
Her: why don’t you take [crappy car] and we will move the car seats?
Me: no, I’d prefer [nice car] because -
Her: fine.
Me: please don’t cut me off. —because [crappy car] is unreliable and -
Her: I said fine
Me: please don’t cut me off. - and because I don’t trust the crappy car on windy roads -
Her: I get it.
[i walk away, come back after a moment. Should I leave it, or stand up for myself? This is unkind communication.]
Me: I know this is an emotional issue for you, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t cut me off when we’re talking, I’d like to be able to finish my thoughts.
Her: yes, SIR.
[i walk away. She comes and finds me 5 minutes later.]
Her: this is just adding more and more constraints on how I use my time. I don’t even get to go out and work during the week anymore [meaning she leaves, I watch the kids as well as doing my job, which is quite demanding].
Me: ok, I get that. I’ve had a very full week working longer hours than usual recently. But I did say you could go out last week.
Her: I asked and you said no.
Me: you asked at 4pm on Friday, and I was booked. But I said you could go out back on Monday, and you never asked.
Her: ok fine it’s all my fault, everything is my fault.
—-
This is typical of how our conversations go when I ask for any sort of compromise on her behavior. I know self-analysis is tricky, but I cannot overemphasize how level and generous my tone is, nor how quickly she escalates.
What should I have done differently? Should I take a stand and say it’s not ok to talk to me that way? I’m clearly missing something vital. Normally I simply stay calm and ignore her verbal abuse. Help me learn. I want out of this loop.
After reading-reading Sandi’s rules and ruminating, it’s clear that I should have just walked away after the first time she said “fine” and cut me off. I’d gotten what I had asked for, and it’s her choice if she wants to engage in sub-standard communication. Damn, it is so hard not to react when treated poorly.
Hoch, If it is really about the kids safety, I would limit the conversation and get straight to the point.
"Wife. I would like to use the nice car on Saturdays when you are at work so I can take the kids to (park, etc). The old car is unreliable and I feel it would be more safe for them if we use nice car".
If she bucks against it. Validate her but stay firm in the safety of your kids.
"I understand you are frustrated but this is for their safety".
This only works though if this is your intention and your kids only ride in the nice car. If for any reason outside an emergency they ride in old car... well you might want to ask yourself why you asked.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Thanks for responding. I suppose I am examining my own emotions and motivations.
The main point is the kids safety. We never use the old car for child transport anymore because it has broken down 4 times and left us stranded.
But there’s definitely a component where I would like to use the nice car I pay for one day a week while she has it for 6. For the last year, I’ve been stuck at home on the weekends with the kids while she works because she has the kid transport car. That doesn’t seem unreasonable, but maybe I’m not seeing it clearly.
Thanks for responding. I suppose I am examining my own emotions and motivations.
The main point is the kids safety. We never use the old car for child transport anymore because it has broken down 4 times and left us stranded.
But there’s definitely a component where I would like to use the nice car I pay for one day a week while she has it for 6. For the last year, I’ve been stuck at home on the weekends with the kids while she works because she has the kid transport car. That doesn’t seem unreasonable, but maybe I’m not seeing it clearly.
I guess I'm a little confused. Don't you work from home? Isn't she a SAHM most of the time? So Is it when you go out for GAL - that you take the old car. That makes sense to me if it's about safety. Whe reever the kids are is where the nice car should be. IF she goes out w/o kids - maybe she should take the old car?
Are you okay with her taking the old car and possibly getting stranded?
This feels like you both both are making a very big deal out of something that should be very small. Do you know what the underlying emotions are?
I also sense resentment in your response. Remembering that resentment is victim anger, what do you feel you are a victim of?
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
You’re right that this is a big deal about nothing - it’s not something I particularly care about. But I am uncovering this huge well of resentment that I need to figure out how to deal with, and it’s almost all due to years of this same sort of thing - I bend over backwards to give her whatever she needs or wants, and when I ask kindly for small quality of life compromises she belittles me, shuts never down, shouts me out, or walks away keeping it from ever being resolved. That’s the loop I want out of. She is rude, entitled, and cold.
Even now, she came back to grab something, and is chatting with me and showing me silly photos on the internet like she didn’t verbally abuse me earlier without recognizing or apologizing.
Do I take it with a smile? If I’m standing up for myself, do I choose to walk away now by way of saying “you were unkind earlier, I don’t really feel like talking to you right now” ?
Honestly, this has been going on so long, and I’m realizing this is a lot of how my childhood went, that I’m completely ill-equipped to know where I should stand up for myself and where I should ignore. I feel like a bit of a dunce but I’m gonna learn this.
Help me out, I’m nearly 40 and just now figuring out boundaries. It’s time to learn.
Ask me something like she wanted my advice, and as soon as I started talking, she would interrupt and talk over me. I would keep telling her I didn’t like it when she spoke or yelled over me, so she would just keep doing it more.
A lot of reading I’ve done since we split suggests people who argue like this in relationships have big control issues. Often had incredibly repressed childhoods, we’re very quiet, or played second fiddle to a golden sibling. And now in mid life they’re trying to reclaim their voice, but often in the complete wrong way.
This manifests later in adult life during relationships where they become extremely controlling, and they attempt to do this by hijacking conversation.
There’s two keys to this in my opinion. The first one is not to engage as soon as it happens. Simply ask her not to talk over you and then walk away. Secondly, do not get angry. She will not like the loss of control when you stop engaging, so she will then attempt to regain it - including doing whatever she can to get a rise out of you, such as following you around when you leave or saying provocative things. Irrational spouses at this point become like dogs that bark, any attention is good attention so they will make really poor choices and incite a big argument. It makes no sense.
So make it clear that you won’t engage when she yells over you, or makes snide remarks such as “yes SIR” (which is also a childish attempt to regain control) but DO NOT get angry, or bitter or go quiet. Just leave the room but then pretend you are having a great time. Put some music on, play with your kids, be happy and be really upbeat.
If you continue to engage when she talks over you, or if you get angry or bitter or upset, she has got what she wants.
This is the first time I’ve heard anything that helps me wrap my head around why she does this. Not so that I can fix it, but because the complete illogic baffles me - you’re that upset with me that you want to treat me that way? Then why on earth are you chatty and friendly the next minute? And again, that this Wife 2.0 is inconsistent with the personality of Wife 1.0, wherein she would never raise an unkind word to anyone.
Believe or not, my wife grew up in an oppressive household, was very quiet, and was fifth fiddle to four siblings. I know control issues are huge for her.
So thank you, I really appreciate this framework. It at least shows me how to avoid the beginning of that loop.
You’re welcome. I wish someone had explained this to me earlier
Just remember, she has two techniques to gain control - talk over you to control the conversation, or when you leave, try and make you angry.
You make your boundary clear and disengage when she yells over you “I don’t think we can have a productive discussion when you choose to talk over me” and then leave.
And then you don’t let her make you angry, and trust me, she will try ANYTHING to get a rise out of you because she will then feel like she has wrangled control back.
This forum makes it very clear that you can’t talk irrational people around in these scenarios. You can’t nice her around, you can’t ask her to be more considerate, words just will not work. Actions speak louder than words so simply walking away from her when she does this is the most powerful way to explain to her you won’t engage.
My psychologist said allowing a controlling spouse to make you angry is like giving a dog a treat when they piss on the carpet.
