#18 - Still working 2 years into Ring & Piecing

[SteveLW]

I also just want to stand up for women in the ‘ensnaring’ commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can’t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don’t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don’t call it ensnaring.

I don't think you can say this in totality. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of to suggest that there is a degree of "trying to get him to marry me" that goes on in many cases. It's like the old joke (the original version is crude so I'll clean it up a bit): Why do brides smile on their wedding day? Because they know they never have to give oral sex again.

Maybe ensnare is too harsh a word, but there is often an aspect of a GF being willing to do things, sexually or not, to get married. I know women that were very into their boyfriends hobbies..... Until the I does were done, and then it was "go do your own thing". So it certainly does happen.

Now you make a good point about men owning there side too. LH touched on it but we guys can get lazy in the marriage and stop trying. When the guy feels so comfortable that he'll just let loose with farts around her, maybe his dress and hygiene and grooming gets lax, and he stops romancing her I can see why a wife would not want to sleep with that! So it does go both ways.

But I can only speak for my case...I still dated her, groomed and dressed well, and kept my hygiene up (I'm a bit of a neat freak). But did I behave badly about her not having desire? Yes I did.

[OnlyBent]

The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement.

Steve, this could have been written about me, especially how I handled the rejection of no sex. What made it worse in my situation is how she invalidated my feelings of rejection. I didn't realise it at the time how damaging this sort of behaviour is. Of course, throughout our marriage I did exactly the same thing back to her, invalidate and fix, rinse, repeat, so unhealthy. It's a cruel irony of life that it takes BD for men to wake up to improving themselves to be better husbands but usually it is too little too late. In my situation it looks like the horse has bolted unfortunately, just as I'm starting to 'get it'.

[LH19]

The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement.

Steve, this could have been written about me, especially how I handled the rejection of no sex. What made it worse in my situation is how she invalidated my feelings of rejection. I didn't realise it at the time how damaging this sort of behaviour is. Of course, throughout our marriage I did exactly the same thing back to her, invalidate and fix, rinse, repeat, so unhealthy. It's a cruel irony of life that it takes BD for men to wake up to improving themselves to be better husbands but usually it is too little too late. In my situation it looks like the horse has bolted unfortunately, just as I'm starting to 'get it'.

So Bent who wins in the long run you or your W? 97% of men act like you did in your marriage so odds are the a$$ clown she’s dating will act the same way. But if you take what you learn into your next relationship then you will be the winner. Does it $uck it had to come to this for you to learn? Absolutely. Well let me tell you something you already know, the world ain’t all sunshine and rainbows.

[MrBrside]

Steve,

Your update on how things change was brilliant.

I also just want to stand up for women in the ‘ensnaring’ commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can’t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don’t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don’t call it ensnaring.

Unfortunately Sage, statistically personality disorders are on the up.. It could just be that records / research etc wasnt what it is today in past decades - but there has never been so much documentation / evidence / resrearch into personality disorders.

There is also some debate / evidence that child hood truama such as parents seperating is a contributing factor to these disorders.. Take into accout how many more people divorce / seperate now, compared to the 70s and 80s, you can see why there are a so many messed up people.

And from my persepective, WW was on the pill, but managed to get pregnant 3 months into our relationship, claiming she "must have forgot to take it". I was already seeing the red flags ( i'll be honest when i say, i did ignore them ) - but would i have been with her after 6 months if she hadn't of falled pregnant - No!

So i would say there is ensnaring - Wolfmans Sitch is a scary example of this !

Maybe ensnare is too harsh a word, but there is often an aspect of a GF being willing to do things, sexually or not, to get married. I know women that were very into their boyfriends hobbies..... Until the I does were done, and then it was "go do your own thing". So it certainly does happen.

Like the sex, the whole "change to impress" things is oh so common. Until our first child was born, my WW shared all my hobbies. Especially fast cars. Once D1 was born, she showed total disrespect for my cars, calling them "chavy".. Yet there were photos of her on our fireplace posing next to them. I don't believe she ever had an interest in cars, but for that 11 month period, she "pretented" to be really into them - even helping my swap an engine out when 3 months pregnant.



It is these posts that the LBS needs to read to realise they are not alone, but also to learn - then not make then same mistakes next time around..

[BL42]

Sage4,

I appreciate weighing in from the female perspective. It was an interesting read, especially the need for the pursuer/distancer dynamic in addition to just regular dates. I'll have to consider love languages and pursuit in my future relationship. I wonder though, what made sex feel like a "one more chore" as opposed to something you desired? Was it simply the pursuit dynamic?

I also just want to stand up for women in the ‘ensnaring’ commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can’t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don’t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don’t call it ensnaring.

I hesitated to use the word "ensnare", assuming it could be controversial, hence the "for lack of a better word" comment. I don't think W is a sociopath, though I do wonder if her finding out as a teenager her mom was having an affair and divorcing her dad and the resulting issues/counseling/ADs is rearing its ugly head in my sitch. I'm also not trying to cop opt - just trying to understand the whole situation more and learn from it - but it does seem like there are plenty of men, including Steve, LH, and MrBrside saying sex fell off dramatically after marriage. Why the change so quickly if there wasn't a "while we're dating I'll be interested, but now that I'm married I don't have to anymore" factor?

[BL42]

Steve85,

Steve85 - My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? Sometimes I wonder if my W acted so loving and sexually to "ensnare" me (for lack of a better word), and then to turn it off and act as she really wanted to once she was married. But...is it something you (and I) did to cause that, which I can improve upon for the future? I tend to think the lack of the sex life caused me to get frustrated and pull away, but maybe in her mind (and your W's) it was the opposite. In other words...what came first, the chicken or the egg? And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL, her and I had that discussion multiple times, the chicken and egg thing. Did get back of desire cause my bag behavior or vice versa. As with all things I think the truth is in the middle. She didn't want to keep up the pre marriage pace and then I started to act poorly. Which exasperated her lack of desire which exasperated my bad behavior. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy

However, I would also bring up things we used to do, and she admitted that she did those things because she wanted to be a cool girlfriend". Which brings me to Sage....

You're probably right that the truth is in the middle. I did broach the topic at times with W but we never really had a good, genuine conversation about it - it would get brushed under the table with a "don't analyze it" or whatever.

I also just want to stand up for women in the ‘ensnaring’ commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can’t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don’t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don’t call it ensnaring.

I don't think you can say this in totality. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of to suggest that there is a degree of "trying to get him to marry me" that goes on in many cases. It's like the old joke (the original version is crude so I'll clean it up a bit): Why do brides smile on their wedding day? Because they know they never have to give oral sex again.

Maybe ensnare is too harsh a word, but there is often an aspect of a GF being willing to do things, sexually or not, to get married. I know women that were very into their boyfriends hobbies..... Until the I does were done, and then it was "go do your own thing". So it certainly does happen.

Now you make a good point about men owning there side too. LH touched on it but we guys can get lazy in the marriage and stop trying. When the guy feels so comfortable that he'll just let loose with farts around her, maybe his dress and hygiene and grooming gets lax, and he stops romancing her I can see why a wife would not want to sleep with that! So it does go both ways.

But I can only speak for my case...I still dated her, groomed and dressed well, and kept my hygiene up (I'm a bit of a neat freak). But did I behave badly about her not having desire? Yes I did.

I agree there's something here. Again, I hesitated to sure the word ensnare because it had the potential to be controversial but whatever word there does seem to be a quick fall-off in many cases which makes it seem like a bit of bait-and-switch.

[BL42]

LH19,

Steve, this could have been written about me, especially how I handled the rejection of no sex. What made it worse in my situation is how she invalidated my feelings of rejection. I didn't realise it at the time how damaging this sort of behaviour is. Of course, throughout our marriage I did exactly the same thing back to her, invalidate and fix, rinse, repeat, so unhealthy. It's a cruel irony of life that it takes BD for men to wake up to improving themselves to be better husbands but usually it is too little too late. In my situation it looks like the horse has bolted unfortunately, just as I'm starting to 'get it'.

So Bent who wins in the long run you or your W? 97% of men act like you did in your marriage so odds are the a$$ clown she’s dating will act the same way. But if you take what you learn into your next relationship then you will be the winner. Does it $uck it had to come to this for you to learn? Absolutely. Well let me tell you something you already know, the world ain’t all sunshine and rainbows.

So LH, this is probably a pointless question but and maybe you'll tap my knuckles with the ruler, but do you think my W (and OnlyBent's) are turning things on for their AP/OM only to have the same issue a year or two or three down the road? Or, is it something wrong with us personally and the OM will be better? I know I'm not supposed to detach and care about that but the question is in the back of my mind wondering if it's me or W.

[BL42]

MrBrside,

There is also some debate / evidence that child hood truama such as parents seperating is a contributing factor to these disorders.. Take into accout how many more people divorce / seperate now, compared to the 70s and 80s, you can see why there are a so many messed up people.

When my W was 12 she found out her mom was having an affair and going to divorce her dad. That and the resulting divorce impact caused her much anxiety and depression and she was in counseling and on ADs for two decades before we met. A couple people warned my mom about her but I guess I was in love and she swore to me she would stick it out and never wanted to be like her mother. I can't help but feel she couldn't escape her past/modeling, and her upbringing is rearing its head in my sitch.

It is these posts that the LBS needs to read to realise they are not alone, but also to learn - then not make then same mistakes next time around..

Agreed. Definitely a lot to learn from these post - this forum has been very helpful for me and so many others I'm sure.

[MrBrside]

When my W was 12 she found out her mom was having an affair and going to divorce her dad. That and the resulting divorce impact caused her much anxiety and depression and she was in counseling and on ADs for two decades before we met. A couple people warned my mom about her but I guess I was in love and she swore to me she would stick it out and never wanted to be like her mother. I can't help but feel she couldn't escape her past/modeling, and her upbringing is rearing its head in my sitch.

My WW's dad had an affair and left when she was 4. She frequently told me her earliest childhood memory was sitting at the top of the stairs crying, as she watched her mum beg the father not to leave. She has a very poor / non existant relationship with her father, who she went through life blaming for anthing and everything. She caried a lot of resentment over this - Which is why i found it so strange that she started to message / flirt with other men.

Re the sex thing. As a couple we made love every single day, multiple times from the day i moved in until the night before our first child was born - From memory, there were 2 days in that whole 12 month period when we didnt - as i was on a stag do and away for 2 days. Thats it. From the day our first daughter was born, she has no interest in me again - like maybe once a month.

There could be many reasons for this, but i do believe ( ive mentioned here before ) that personality disorders come into play ( along with a lot of other factors Steve has mentioned ) - My WW used to pickup and drop friends like hot coals.. As soon as D1 was born, i didnt get a look in - i was last years news.. Once D2 was born, D1 was no longer the favourite. D3 was then the focus... Now D2 is the apple of her eye according to the D1, who really doesnt have a good relationship with her mother. This is a trait of NPD.

Agreed. Definitely a lot to learn from these post - this forum has been very helpful for me and so many others I'm sure.

Unfortunetly, you wont find the things you read / learn here in any education system. Yet if you learn and soak up the knowlege, most LBS will realise they were pretty clueless when it came to their relationship.. Hence why learning and changing is so important for either reconsiling or your next relationship - something crazy like 95% of affairs fail within 5 years. I think i read that if look look at the numbers of affairs and chances of making it past 5 years, you have a higher chance of winning the lottery - why do they fail ? i think a big part has to do with bother WW / OM / OW not working on themselves and history repeats..

[MrBrside]

So LH, this is probably a pointless question but and maybe you'll tap my knuckles with the ruler, but do you think my W (and OnlyBent's) are turning things on for their AP/OM only to have the same issue a year or two or three down the road? Or, is it something wrong with us personally and the OM will be better? I know I'm not supposed to detach and care about that but the question is in the back of my mind wondering if it's me or W.

1) - Why care ? Life now for you - set a goal for that year or two and work to making it happen.
2) - Most affairs do not last two or three years... fact.. Circumstances can impact on this such as moving in together etc ( ie if they only see each other once a week and dont live together there is probably less friction / arguments )
3) - I know a lot of people who have had affairs. I only know of 2 couples who have lasted over 5 years. my WW father is still with the lady he left WW mum for, BUT its not a stable happy relationship - both have had multiple affairs.

But at the end of the day - focus on you - not where she will be in 3 weeks, 6 months, 1 year or 5 years.