I feel like I either need to record our conversations or have someone else present as I truly can't see what I am saying or doing wrong and it is making me feel like I am insane.
Gaslighting. I used to write down each conversation immediately after it happened, then call a trusted friend or family member and repeat it back to them. Relaying it back word for word, and seeing the horrified reactions from those people, was the wake-up call I needed to see it for what it was. I also saw my psychologist every other week to get an impartial third party's perspective. I guarantee you are not doing anything objectionable. You're not going mad, I promise. You are being subjected to an insidious form of abuse driven by his desperate need to shift the blame and justify his betrayal. I'd strongly advise grey rocking him. NC is the way, the truth, and the light. Do not validate abuse.
Sage, I second Scout on this. He is gaslighting you and there is zero reason for you to listen or care.
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I know that H wants deep down to be friends and have an amicable split where we can spend time together as a family, but that is not possible for me when everything I say and do is construed and constructed to build his narrative of what a wicked person I am.
It is hard to not take that to heart. I want to be open to growth and learning opportunities in this process, I also want to validate and leave some space for us to be good in the future. But I can't control his narrative and that narrative is destroying my self-esteem and self-worth.
Gently, I wonder... why do you care if deep down he wants to be friends and have an amicable split where you can spend time together as a family? Is this what you want? Especially with someone who is treating you the way he is? Maybe at some point in the future he will be the kind of human being you want to spend time with, again. But it sure doesn't sound like he is that person right now and I am just wondering why you want to subject yourself to it.
It seems to me that going NC/grey rock will not only protect you and give you the space and ability to heal-- and protect your own self-esteem and self-worth-- but also honestly protect the possibility of being friendly in the future. It seems like these toxic interactions could really poison your potential future amicable relationship. Can you move your necessary conversations to email?
(((SAGE)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
KNOW it is nothing about you but its his stuff The MLCer is not living in reality
Peace, a lot of what you wrote resonated with me, but this is the take-home reminder I needed today. Thank you for that. It is not my stuff, it's his. I've got a heavy enough load as it is, I don't also need to carry his.
Originally Posted by scout12
Gaslighting. I used to write down each conversation immediately after it happened, then call a trusted friend or family member and repeat it back to them. Relaying it back word for word, and seeing the horrified reactions from those people, was the wake-up call I needed to see it for what it was. I also saw my psychologist every other week to get an impartial third party's perspective. I guarantee you are not doing anything objectionable. You're not going mad, I promise. You are being subjected to an insidious form of abuse driven by his desperate need to shift the blame and justify his betrayal. I'd strongly advise grey rocking him. NC is the way, the truth, and the light. Do not validate abuse.
Scout, as usual, spot on reflection. I have been doing the same thing; sharing with trusted confidants who are horrified that a woman whom they consider to be strong and wise would subject herself to this for even a microsecond. And I know I am going to sound like the proverbial abuse victim who keeps explaining away an abuser's behavior, but here is what I truly believe: he is so out of his mind with this whole MLC (or maybe mental illness or sociopathic narcissism, I just read bttrfly's update on Cardinal's thread) that he truly is not intentionally gaslighting me. In his distorted reality he actually hears me screaming when I am whispering. He hears the negative when I am actually saying something positive.
And May, NO I DO NOT want to be friends with this person in front of me. He is the opposite of any human I would be naturally attracted to at this moment in time, neither as a friend or a lover. And he is certainly not acting as any member of my family would act (sperm donor? Might be the best label for him at the mo). I want him out of my space and out of my life right now. Grey rock. And you're right, these interactions are creating more toxicity and need to stop.
But the kids. It keeps coming back to what's best for the kids. And they are having their own issues with him, so it is doubly tough. Ugh ugh ugh. THIS IS SO HARD.
Just know— this is NOT YOUR FAULT. you did not do this nor do you deserve it. Nor do your kids. But there is only so much you can do— and keeping yourself strong and sane so you can be the best mom you can to them is your priority.
You got this, Sage. You are so perceptive and understanding I know it is hard to not have empathy for what your husband is going through right now. But you need to do what you need to do for yourself right now, for your children. Don’t let your kind heart allow you to enable him.
Xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Being totally available to the kids as the stable wise adult parent will help them
To be honest I don't see my kids too scarred from their MLC Dad
I made the shift at some point, off of Him to my kids being there for them I was cordial and kind to XH ..He visited when he wanted at first rules came later
Not badmouthing Xh..mostly reasurring kids a lot --it will be ok and it was nothing to do with them Dad was going through something and we had to let him
especially my pre teen who needed more at that time of BD
Once the MLCer moves out, this becomes easier
their negative energy no longer invades the home
hang in there
Most important to take care of you now H may get worse as he travels the tunnel find ways to detach read about it, get support keep posting
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I was the child of an MLCer who had a personality disorder, I realize now. And then I married one. I thought I married the opposite of anyone like my family. And I know he was a much better man before MLC but now I don't know if that was an act too. I think he was battling his own demons and then couldn't do it anymore at MLC.
I just want to chime in because I see it a little differently, as a mom and as a child who went through it.
I don't badmouth my H but I don't lie about it either. I didn't tell them about the adultery until they asked, because H immediately brought OW around my kids and they lied so much to my D, and I could see that it was making her feel crazy herself, because she sensed something was wrong. I was vague but answered her questions truthfully, in an age-appropriate way. I had cancer in 2014 and my kids still don't know, so I definitely shield them from things that I don't think they need to know yet, but I think they do need to know enough about their dad to have strong boundaries. I know from experience that the MLC parent gaslights the kids too, and it confused me beyond imagining that no one validated to me that my mother was out of her mind. I internalized it and disassociated so much that I can barely remember anything about my childhood. And ultimately I think it led to my being so used to that kind of stuff that I didn't see it in men I dated, and the one I married. It felt normal. I thought that was how life was once you weren't dating anymore. And like I said, he was at least trying to be an ethical, moral man and a good father.
My son refuses to see his dad. My daugther sees him a lot and has this middle school romance sort of relationship with him but then will say things like this -- after having a lemonade stand and having a big pile of cash -- "It's good that he doesn't live here anymore, he would have stolen all this cash." Then she runs to her phone to call him and send him a million hearts.
My son went through h*ll, was suicidal, wouldn't go to school, shoplifting, etc. But now he is coming out of that and the trust I kept alive was everything. He is not confused, ever. He is rageful and has a broken heart but he is never confused. My daughter is confused constantly.
All of this is to say -- I would say not to act that breezy about their dad. Give no details but validate that what they see is happening. And be glad if your kids don't see too much of him while he is like this. They can grow mature enough to know who he is and have boundaries, or wait until he has come out of it a little and is a better person. Everyone says it's important to see your parents no matter what but I think it's more damaging to enter that dynamic and absorb that craziness than the damage caused by not seeing a parent for a little while. I'm glad my son chooses not to see his dad for now.
I couldn't heal from my mom til I cut off contact for a while, until I was clear-headed enough to have boundaries from her, and I was still pretty messed up around her until she died in 2017. I didn't start healing and seeing things clearly about my marriage until my H moved out. He wouldn't leave, even almost a year after he filed. I had to pay him to get him out. Worth every penny. Seeing the huge positive change in my son after his dad left only showed me that I had not done the right thing allowing things to go on for so long in front of him. My son still speaks to me in a verbally abusive way sometimes, just like he witnessed for years after BD. He feels awful after he treats me badly and says he has no control over his mind when he is angry. He was never like that before my H went crazy -- he was the most loving and happy child before all of this. And I was the LAST person to want to divorce or to stop standing. I still don't believe in divorce and am devoutly Christian, but I realize now that there is no contradiction with that when you have to get that dark abusive force away from your kids. It's standing for your family and it is a way to show love even to the abuser to stop enabling his abuse. You can love him from far away.
Last edited by job; 08/22/2001:56 PM. Reason: edited a word
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Gosh, ladies, way to make a woman feel validated and supported from all sides. Thank you, May, PT and Gerda. xx
I am resolute in being the best, most stable mama I can be right now. My younger two are doing just fine. For them it is kind of exciting to have so much attention from each parent (poor, poor last children in a big family; always grateful for the crumbs, so when they get the whole cake it is like hitting the jackpot!). The older two are having a rough go of it. When H & I are NC, I feel entirely able to pivot my attention from mourning H and my M, and onto the wellbeing of the kids. Thanks, PT, for that image. It is a good one to work towards.
And May, thanks for the reminder about enabling. I know that I am more emotionally evolved than H, and it has always been my 'duty' to use that in a way that creates the most good with the least harm. But I am failing to include the harm that it is causing me in that calculation. Enabling is a trigger word for me that I learned in IC, I am working so hard on not enabling H any longer and need constant reminders. (((May)))
Gerda, what a ride you have been on. Stronger than an ox, you are. I admire your stamina. I am desperate for any intuitive cues that I should keep standing for my M and be the gentle, validating, steady force in my MLCer's life. But it is so tough to take care of my own heart as well as 4 other little hearts. My son has the potential to take your son's path and I am grateful that H moved out so early in this process. I am attempting to be authentic with them (they see me cry, they know I am sad about my M), but I also am firm with them that they are not responsible for my emotions and don't need to take care of me and aren't responsible for 'fixing' it. I am not sure if I am doing this right, but my intentions are for them to see me being authentic and also know that it is my job to take care of them and not the other way around.
Kids are smart. And they are perceptive. Initially I divulged very little to them, but as I move forward with my healing, I realized that it would be important for them to know some age appropriate truths as well. I do not plan on playing cover up for my H. I made it clear to the children that I am not okay with H’s decisions and behavior. That is not what I seek in a husband, a father, or a man. But I also said to my eldest that he must also have some opinion about his father. Whatever it is, he gets to decide. I think it has been the best for them that my H moved out early on.
...my prayer to the universe right now: if this hardship and heartbreak must happen to me, please open me up to all the lessons I have to learn and make me a better person as a result. Let something good come of all of this. Amen.
Well said.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Unfortunately, things have gotten so untenable in my communication with H, I feel I need to go as NC as I possibly can. A simple conversation about basic un-heated topics turns into accusations of me being aggressive, controlling or manipulative. I don't use the right words, or in the right order, or my tone is not right. I feel like I either need to record our conversations or have someone else present as I truly can't see what I am saying or doing wrong and it is making me feel like I am insane. Is it common for an MLCer to have so much guilt, resentment and anger that they literally cannot even converse with their LBS without it adding to their laundry list of what a terrible person the LBS are?
Yes, the projections upon us, the LBS, to paint us as a terrible person is pretty common. And as you are finding out, MLCer projections are rather irrational and not based in fact.
Going no contact is for you. It is for your healing. To stop hearing those hurtful accusations and the gaslighting of you. To allow you time to find your balance and regain your footing.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I know that H wants deep down to be friends and have an amicable split where we can spend time together as a family, but that is not possible for me when everything I say and do is construed and constructed to build his narrative of what a wicked person I am.
H is conflicted and confused.
How can someone want to be friends and spilt amicably; and still construct a narrative in which you are a wicked person. It’s confusing. Yet, this is the battle raging within his mind. He needs time and space.
I know how much of a hit that false narrative is against one’s self worth. Time and space, helps you too.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Sage - just wanted to drop by to say how much your thread is helping me and how well you’re doing handling the situation with yourself and the kids!!
The gaslighting is the biggest take away for me right now. As dnj pointed out, it can definitely takes a toll against one’s self worth if you let it. Part of me feels like my H just got worse (In the sense of looking for reasons to explode and exuding negativity) the more I started to go no contact....does that even make sense?
When dnj and others say “H is conflicted and confused right now” I do see that and agree...but the mind is strange in how it processes things. It takes so long to come to terms with something when it doesn’t make sense and his behaviour and words don’t match.
I also relate to how you feel about the in-laws. I want to scream from the mountain top all the things H is doing because I know he’s painted me as the bad person...Somehow I’ve shown restraint.
Keep doing well Sage especially with your busy plate with the 4 wee ones! (((Sage)))
