HD, I think you are on to something here! The convo sounded great and you articulated your feelings in a clear but concise way. Continue to stand your ground because no doubt she will retort with, "Well then you are right--we will not be married in ten years if that is your requirement." Then you will have another opportunity to remind her that this is HER choice to make and that you are only telling her your true feelings.
One suggestion I was going to make was to NOT have this discussion on vacation--why ruin the good feelings you have going on? Everyone looks forward to vacation and a big, heavy discussion on the trip there would dampen that, imo. Why not have it this weekend and have some sort of resolution or answer in place by the time you leave? I understand that the drive will give you lots of time in which to discuss it but it sounded like a short conversation to me and I doubt she will want to go in depth about it, anyway, at least not right away.
We are all pulling for you; this sounds so promising!
Yeah. Great visuals. But one nice side-effect is that she gets great stimulation and it's easier for me to control myself. Finishing that way doesn't allow the rest of my body to come into play. We usually roll over.
I'm with grislen and hairdog and other starving HD husbands: this is difficult to read, especially at work, especially after a fight this morning.
Quote: But ten years from now, if you still feel that way, I think it's fair to say that you and I likely won't be married anymore.
Hairdog, I think you're on the right track, but I think your time frames are a cop-out. Why so long? These issues really don't take that long to work out if you're working on it. I'd say five months should really tell the tale, but I'd also (if I were you) expect positive results within five weeks. The two-choice dilemma (and standing up for yourself) means that you take a position based on self-integrity, and you will not accept anything less. You let her know that she has a choice to make, and that you will be making your own decisions based on the choice you see her making. It really doesn't take five years to get to that point. With such a long "deadline", she still has no real incentive to change - she'll just figure you'll forget all about it by then, or wimp out again. I know, it's scary to take a stand, but take it you must...
Thanks everyone who responded. I agree, AtlDave that I want to avoid the long, drawn out R conversation that my W and I tend to have. It's beginning to sound like a tape recorder on an endless loop. We never seem to resolve very much. I think just putting my heartfelt desire out there (making myself vulnerable), telling her what I see as her choices to make, and then telling her what the consequences of those choices will be is the best way to do it. I'm sure she will want to drag me into the usual mix, but I can be pretty stubborn, so if I go there, it's only because I let myself do it, which I need to try to avoid.
As for having this conversation on vacation, I'll just have to see how it goes. I was kind of envisioning it during the ride home, but I will have to figure out when is appropriate.
As for the time frames being a cop out, are they really? I say that the 5 year outlook is fuzzy, which means that it is not certain we'll be married then. Remember, I am really devoted to my daughter, and seeing that she ends up okay. It is a question I will have to ask myself (if W won't work on the R): Can I be a better father to her away from W? This is the question I answered "yes" to for other reasons with my 1st wife. Here, I would have to balance the damages of growing up in a house where the mom and dad obviously don't care for each other, versus the damage of growing up in a divorced family. That's a hard one...and there have been lots of debates on those issues on this board and elsewhere.
I am trying to be optimistic about all of this. Thanks, Effexor!
Unaffectionate couples are TERRIBLE for their children. Will your daughter become another LD woman like her mother. Kids learn a lot about marriage by watching Mom and Dad. I think the same with my 3 boys, they are seeing a completely passionless marrriage. I do NOT want them to think this is normal, and thus do the same in their own marriages. I think to that PM says that children grow up to be as differentiated as their parents. I am thinking my wife is VERY similar to her Natural Mother and her Adopted mother, 2 of the most FRIDGID women I have ever seen. My wife has changed to be just like them. So we both have a problem, divorce is bad, but unaffectionate marriages ALSO are bad for the children. Maybe, divorce and then finding someone that if more HD will allow us to find a PM and to express this in FRONT of the children.
Quote: Can I be a better father to her away from W?
A better question might be "Will she be able to have a better relationship with my W if I'm not obviously being made unhappy by her".
My Dad stuck it out in a terrible relationship with my "shopaholic, rage-aholic" mother, largely because of his 4 daughters. He got back together with her after separating twice because he was afraid (rightly so) that she was neglecting my youngest sister.He died recently and though my sisters and I are grateful that he did what he could for us, we are deeply saddened when we think about the sacrifices he had to make. Kids always sense what is really going on in a marriage and though maybe someday I can forgive my Mom for things she did to me, I will find it harder to forgive her for what she did to my Dad.
Though your daughter obviously won't know the details of your sex life, she'll still be able to sense that in some way Mommy is being mean to Daddy and she will probably want to take your side in the fight.
I'm sorry if this is a depressing post,but I keep having thoughts along this line because it seems like all you HD guys have daughters.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The two are related but not necessarily mandatory for each other. You can be affectionate w/o being sexual. Anyone with children understands this. You can still be affectionate with your LDS.
Just how, I haven't figured out yet - although I'm trying to work with 1-Cor-13 (Love is...). That is, to love my wife, be nice, supportive even if I don't ever get to ML again. It is to take a bad situation and make it as sane as possible. My spouse's behavior or shortcomings are no excuse for me not to act properly (ie affectionate) towards her.
One message this may give to children is that in your opinion the child is worth everything you've done for him/her.
This is unconditional love - and it's gotta be the hardest thing I've ever attempted... with lots of "one step forward and two steps back" scenerios. But, I feel like I've tried everything else.
I think it's better to show the kids that you can work through issues in a loving way and not sacrifice your sense of self or integrity in the process. I would hate to think that my daughter would blindly follow the whims of a spouse out of fear that he would leave her. "Unconditional love" and "fruitless giving" should only be applied to children...otherwise, it sounds too hollywood. Well, let me revise that statement...Loving and giving should be a joy and I cannot see how giving to someone who exhibits behaviors counter to your integrity and to the detriment of a relationship could be joyful. It sounds masochistic to engage in that without adequately standing up for what you expect and want in your relationship.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Loving and giving should be a joy and I cannot see how giving to someone who exhibits behaviors counter to your integrity and to the detriment of a relationship could be joyful. It sounds masochistic to engage in that without adequately standing up for what you expect and want in your relationship
That is beautiful, Dave. You've expressed so clearly exactly what I've been feeling lately. I am mad as hell at myself for behaving like such a masochist in my relationship.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
