Quote hd: "You know what I really miss? I miss being comfortable with touching her naked body, kissing her, and making love." Absolutely hairdog. I said more or less the same thing to my W last week though not as explicitly. When she asked me why I persist with reading yet another psychobable book (PM) I told her that all I am striving for is to be able to lie in bed with her in the evening feeling completely relaxed and with no issues outstanding between us. SD
Quote: What you seem to be telling me is that she won't see the light until I nudge her out of her comfort zone, and force her to find that light for herself. Of course, that may end the smoothness that is our marriage right now.
That's exactly right, imho. Without nudging her out of her comfort zone, she has no incentive to do anything different - she is SATISFIED with the status quo. And yes, this will end the smoothness in your marriage, but it will have the effect of "disturbing" the gridlock, and potentially causing the two of you to move forward in your R. This is a GOOD thing, although it WON'T be comforable or easy... nothing worthwhile ever is.
When she asked me why I persist with reading yet another psychobable book (PM) I told her that all I am striving for is to be able to lie in bed with her in the evening feeling completely relaxed and with no issues outstanding between us.
Great answer. Do you see the "textbook" effort to suppress your differentiation?
You know, the one thing we all fear is that our LDWs will, instead of rising to the challenge, simply run. But the one thing that is comforting me in that scenario is that they are running because they don't want to face their own issues. Secondly, if their issues are more important than the marriage, then I'm not so certain I want to be married to someone who is that weak and unadaptable.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
If the spouse is not interested in doing whatever it takes to get to the passionate marriage, then why would we want to continue a pointless relationship. Why would we settle for someone that is willing to settle for crap?
Quote: So, how do I self-soothe? Just tell myself I'm a good guy? Or do I stroke the satin edge of my blankie? Think about my mommy (leaving out the image of her beating me with a coat hanger)? Eat a bag of M&Ms?
For me, it's important to have outside interests so I'm not always sitting around stewing in my own juices, thinking about sex.
Running is very helpful (I'm doing 3-6 miles every other day). For me, so is music (flute, pennywhistle, dumbek, quena ... I'm working on frame drum now). Also, just doing pleasant things with my wife, holding hands, smiling, writing her nice notes, etc.
If ALL I think about is sex, and NOTHING is happening there, then I get really, really frustrated.
I'm almost done with PM now and I think I can explain what I meant by self-soothing through empowerment. What I was really talking about is what Schnarch calls self-confrontation. If you can make a list of all the ways you may have been contributing to the problem and all the ways you may be deceiving yourself and your W by projecting a false image etc. then you have something to busy yourself with and something solid for your spouse to react to.
For instance, I didn't want to believe my H when he said my weight was a problem. When I admitted to myself that I wasn't entirely happy with my weight either, confronted the immature way I was self-soothing with carbohydrates and went on a diet it made me more differentiated and it forced my H to deal with his own issues now that he can't pin that on me.
Another example is at first I wondered whether my H was intimidated by my high drive. The better question I needed to ask myself was whether "I" was afraid of my own HD. If I allowed myself to act/look as sexy as I feel would I not be able to control myself? Would I roll over like a Weeble for any presentable guy with a hard-on? Only when I can trust myself and convey that to my H will he be able to soothe himself around issues with my HD.
Another issue is my problem with my H's use of porn. Since I don't have any problem with porn in general, I had to admit to myself that by focusing on this issue I was trying to stake a claim for ownership of my H's penis. I had a sudden revelation about this when he told me that he didn't like knowing that I masturbated either. So I kind of challenged myself to give it up for a while. I didn't think about it for a couple days and then when I did, I realized it wouldn't make a bit of difference in my desire for my H whether I did or not. I had to laugh at myself for thinking it was any different for my H. I intend to screw my ovaries on real tight and go buy my H a couple new zines to replace the ones he threw away to humor me and enclose a card that says something like " your penis belongs to you and so does my heart" but less sappy (any suggestions?).
One last issue, believe it or not, there are things I'm not entirely comfortable with sexually. I don't like being on top . It feels awkward to me and it makes me feel incompetent. But, if I'm going to ask my H to try things in bed that he's not initially confident/comfortable with then I need to make the first move in that regard. Next available opportunity, I intend to look my H in the eyes and say something like " It bruises my ego to admit that there are things I'm not good at in bed. I feel like "being on top" is one of those things but I'd like to try to get better at it and do it more often because I know you are a visual person and you probably appreciate the view that position affords."
I truly believe self-confrontation is the road to differentiation. Self-soothing is just a skill needed along the way to "hold yourself together" while self-confronting and dealing with your spouses reaction. Figure out how you may be contributing to the problem (try or pretend to believe what your spouse has to say) and DO something about it, don't just admit your complicity to your spouse. Even if the worst case scenario occurs and your spouse spins out of control and out of your life, you will be a much more differentiated person and better able to deal with your break-up and the rest of your life.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: I intend to screw my ovaries on real tight and go buy my H a couple new zines to replace the ones he threw away to humor me and enclose a card that says something like " your penis belongs to you and so does my heart" but less sappy (any suggestions?).
I've always shied away from the "my heart belongs to you" stuff. You need your heart...I don't want it.;)
As for the rest of your post, thank you for explaining it to me. Tim's right...go to the head of the class MM! My W and I and DD3 are going on a vacation at the end of this month, and I hope to work some things out during it. Right now she is swamped with work, trying to wrap a lot of things up before the vacation.
It's probably evident to everyone on this board that I was the obnoxious geek in your math class who was always waving her hand in the air signaling "pick me, pick me,I know the answer".
Quote: I've always shied away from the "my heart belongs to you" stuff. You need your heart...I don't want it.;)
Yeah, I decided to go with a straight-forward apology and ended with "Your penis belongs to you and actually is of no use to me whatsoever if it doesn't come with your mind and heart and spirit firmly attached." I almost made myself cry typing it because really I am kind of "sappy".
I also wimped out on buying a Penthouse at my local convenience store. I ordered a copy of "Naked, Happy Girls" from Amazon with overnight delivery. It seemed like it might at least be "fake-boob-free".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The self soothing part, that is the tough one. Trying to not think about sex is darn near impossible. Sex is like the screen saver in my mind, if my mind starts to not be so active, the SEX screen saver kicks in. I doubt I ever go more then 5 seconds without thinking of sex. IT's freaking everywhere. I sleep next to her body, I see her hugging and kissing the kids (wishing that were me). I watch TV with her. We go to the kids activities together. Then there is the outside world. I work near attractive ladies. I go workout at the gym 4-6 times a week to improve me, and guess what, the gym is full of babes in skimpy clothing. Then I bike ride on the trail through my town about an hour a day, and guess what, there are tons of couples hand-in-hand, cudlling, close, walking the trails, especially older couples like me. Then to top it off, there are some young girls that are INCREDIBLE, that walk these trails. I go to church on Sunday, and the freaking church is full of very attractive ladies and their daughters. Some of these younger ladies even wear the low rise jeans that show half their cracks, and this is IN CHURCH!! The only time I ever get any real time away from pretty ladies is when I golf with the guys. THat is until the freakin beer cart lady comes "Bouncing" up the fairway at us.
To NOT think about sex, if it were only possible!!!
. It feels awkward to me and it makes me feel incompetent. But, if I'm going to ask my H to try things in bed that he's not initially confident/comfortable with then I need to make the first move in that regard. Next available opportunity, I intend to look my H in the eyes and say something like " It bruises my ego to admit that there are things I'm not good at in bed. I feel like "being on top" is one of those things but I'd like to try to get better at it and do it more often because I know you are a visual person and you probably appreciate the view that position affords."