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[DnJ]

Hello Sage

The matter of whether to tell OW’s H (and family) or not, is a thorny issue indeed.

Yes, morally it would seem that informing her H of her cheating ways would be the thing to do. Where and when does that end? How minor an issue before you ignore or overlook? And for who?

I think it depends upon if you know them. If OW and her H (and family) are completely unknown to you then do not involve yourself.

This is similar to why you don’t involve yourself or manipulate H’s path. He is in a journey and if you alter it, for good or bad, you take on responsibility for whatever future outcomes may transpire. And something always transpires. Our lives are all built upon the steps of our past.

OW and her family are also upon a journey. Yes, they may be headed for trouble. Or ruin. Or salvation. Do you want a hand in it?

If the person is known, a friend or family, you already have a hand in their life. Bring the affair to their attention.

Most times the OP is unknown and it is best to leave it be. Let their illicit relationship/affair run its course and burn out on its own. You don’t want them to feel “it is us against the world”, for it solidifies their relationship more. Fate usually is good at doing what is needed as it is needed.

I believe you already confronted H about his affair and told him you might spill the beans. He of course freaked, and panicked. I am sure OW and him have been on high alert listening and looking for signs.

I think, I’d let go of this idea of informing OW’s H. Leave this to fate. It will be uncovered when and how it will.

D

[Sage4]

DnJ, you are such a wise soul and a blessing to this forum. My heart breaks for what your children and you have endured, but I think they are so fortunate to have such an amazing Dad and it sounds like they are thriving human beings despite their trauma. Your ability to eclipse your own trauma and spread love, wisdom and compassion across the world vis-a-vis this forum is an inspiration.

Thank you for responding to my thread. I have read so many of your posts and have learned so much from you already, even if not directly spoken to me.

Everything you wrote above resonates with me (H is a boomerang type and a wallower). A lot of what you wrote is new to me and gives me a much better perspective, so thank you. Although I know that one can't 'diagnose' an MLCer, learning, knowledge and information are the ingredients that help me to become the best version of myself, particularly in these challenging times.

I 100% agree that he needs the space to fix this on his own, I am only in the way and I want to give him that space for my own protection as much as his. I am relieved he has moved out if I am honest. I also need the time and space to figure out my own path to healing.

However I am struggling with how to behave with H. He wants to be friends (ie birthday party, hug me when he comes to drop the kids off, chit chat) but my line in the sand is that I am not friends with someone who treats me the way he does, and he knows the path back to 'friendship' but cannot do it. Which is totally fine, I accept that he is unable to behave like every other friend I have in my life. So I said no about the birthday party, danced my way out of the hug and have been trying to keep conversations short. But he is taking this as rejection and being cold to me, which I have mirrored (although he might argue that it is the other way around... either way we are mirroring each other's pain with rejection).

What do I do here? Should I be happy and upbeat and act as if I don't care? Fake it? Be friendly but firm?

[Sage4]

And in regards to exposing the EA, I don't know these people beyond work (I haven't met EA in person but have had to communicate with her on the phone and email in the past). Most the wise people in my life have said to leave it alone. They are probably right and I feel like I can sit with it as long as I need to.

[scout12]

Hi Sage, all I can suggest is to act on principle, not emotion. Act in a way that allows you to sleep peacefully at night. If that means limiting contact, and H finds you cold and distant, then so be it. If civility is all you can manage, honour that instinct. Don't act some kind of way on his accord. Decide who you are, and act on your accord.

She is clothed in strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future. - Proverbs 31:25.

^This is you.

No matter what DB or any other marriage recovery program tells us, we cannot influence a spouse who is determined to leave us for someone else. Nothing you say or do matters any more. You could be freaking Beyonce and it would not make a lick of difference. A spouse in an active affair is on another planet. The OW is Beyonce x1000 in their eyes.

(Beyonce's husband cheated on her, btw, which says a lot about the nature of cheaters. Chump Lady is a great resource for learning more about this topic).

I vote for exposing the A as a general rule, not to be vindictive or prescriptive, but because it's the truth. If being truthful is one of your core principles, then the nagging feeling that you should tell OW's husband will never go away, because keeping the secret goes against your principles. I ran into a similar dilemma with my ex-ILs. I sat with the emotions for many months before I ended up writing them a letter about X's affair. It tanked our relationship but it was the right thing to do.

You must be okay with any possible outcome. That is the true test of acting on principle rather than emotion.

"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

PS. you will probably find the MLC forum rather more philosophical than Newcomers, haha.

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

Thank you for the kind words.

For how to behave with H, be cordial and kind. This advice is first and foremost for you, the most important person in your situation. And, as a bonus, it gives you the best chance at a future R.

If you consider your future. How you want to be. The person you want to become when all this is in the past. I suspect vindictive, vengeful, angry, hurt, sad, etc. are not the goals - so steer clear of those paths.

Set you goals high and lofty. Compassionate, empathetic, understanding, forgiving, accepting. Walk the path towards those. Be cordial and kind.

That does not mean to be a doormat and get all walked over and treated poorly. You have value and worth. Set boundaries on disrespectful behaviour towards you, and stick to them. Note, that is behaviour directed at you, not his behaviour in general.

He wants to be friends (ie birthday party, hug me when he comes to drop the kids off, chit chat) but my line in the sand is that I am not friends with someone who treats me the way he does, and he knows the path back to 'friendship' but cannot do it.

I have unequivocally stated that it’s me or a friendship with EA/OW.

For right now H cannot choose. Your line in the sand is a lot of pressure to him and his addled mind, and if pushed he will bolt. I would stop stating it. You have let him know your stance, and he has heard it. Remember the blow up when this topic was brought up during the latest mini-reconnect.

You don’t need to be friends with him. Just cordial and kind. Treat him like you do the cashier at the grocery store. Nice small talk and friendly. Steer clear of any R talks like as if they were the plague.

Remember he is in crisis. The OW is nothing more than a band-aid. A distraction. She is married for goodness sakes. She is not emotionally stable. You, my dear Sage, are the prize. Do not ever sell yourself short.

Their relationship is built upon lies and deceit. She is as mixed up, or worse, than H. These MLCers usually do find an affair partner that is emotionally worse than them. Someone for them to save. Their relationship’s foundation is like sand, it will crumble. Stay clear of it, you don’t want the responsibility for this outcome either. Let fate end it.

When H comes over for a hug - “no thanks”. And walk away. If he asks or pushes, then tell him. “You’re with OW, and I’m not plan B.”

Say nothing about friendship or his general behaviour. No blaming, or judging. Just your own view and stance. You are protecting yourself and at the same time being a safe place for him to land. That way it’s up to him. You are just focusing on yourself and living life.

But he is taking this as rejection and being cold to me, which I have mirrored (although he might argue that it is the other way around... either way we are mirroring each other's pain with rejection).

A few things.

Boundaries need to be stated, at least once. You’re with OW, and I’m not plan B - should let him know where you stand and that his behaviour garners a known reaction.

Let him take this how ever he does. If he feels rejected, so be it. Boundaries are for you.

The mirroring each other’s pain. You control you. Do not let his behaviour dictate your behaviour. Cordial and kind and go about your day.

D

[Sage4]

Scout, thanks for the encouraging words, girl! I have to be honest and say that CL has been part of my push towards getting out of the shocked, deer-in-headlights, naive loving wife phase and into one where I recognize abuse (and cheating is abuse).

I think that even more than wanting to tell OW’s H about the affair, I want to tell my in-laws (who have no idea). It would likely blow up in my face, but I am struggling with the knowledge that he has told them I was the wicked wife of the west. Despite the fact that the majority of their time spent with our children was facilitated by me, traveling across the world alone with 4 little kids so they could make memories with the children. And also despite the fact that until several months ago they thought we had the best relationship of anyone in the family (and wrote cards and repeatedly told us so). I’m also not there yet, to disclose his indiscretions to his family. But there is a likelihood my friend tribe over there would do it for me, so I can just let that one ride for a bit.

And as weird as this sounds, I don’t think H is leaving me for the OW. I truly believe their relationship is based on fantasy and emotions and there is really no way they could make something work long-term without H giving up our kids, which at this point is all he has to prove that he is doing all of this for the ‘right reasons’. If he gives up the kids, his whole house of cards comes crashing down (it’s a very, very tiny house, mind you, maybe only a few cards as it is, FWIW).

I was thinking of you today as I navigated a challenging child-split conversation. I found myself F-ing FURIOUS that I had to ask so nicely to take the kids for a few extra hours on one of his days so that we can go on a mountain backpacking trip this week. It is the first of many to come, but the compromise made me so angry. My problem, and probably a result of everything being so fresh and new, but infuriating nonetheless.

Dnj, there are moments where wish I was in your shoes: the partner that walked and never looked back. I don’t wish that on my children, but I have for all intents and purposes raised them on my own anyway, so having to suddenly negotiate time with them feels extra harsh. (Realistically this will only last as long as Covid, so the hardest phase is right now).

Thanks all for the encouragement and wise words. This too will pass and I will be better and stronger soon enough.

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

Dnj, there are moments where wish I was in your shoes: the partner that walked and never looked back. I don’t wish that on my children, but I have for all intents and purposes raised them on my own anyway, so having to suddenly negotiate time with them feels extra harsh.

I do understand the allure of the partner that walks away and never looks back.

I would never wish that upon anyone. So much hurt and pain was compressed into such a small timeframe. Yes, my situation was rather swift and not dragged out. Still, like all situations, a heavy toll was levied and paid.

I think the true allure is for the shoes I am currently standing in, not the ones I used to be in. Funny thing, I suppose they are the same shoes. It’s the destination. It’s the journey.

I never had to experience the harshness of politely negotiating with my spouse, so to spend time with my own kids. After BD, I had no further input or help from W regarding the children’s upbringing, schooling, dating, bra shopping, etc. Everything suddenly became my sole responsibility. Groceries, bills, cars, and so on. Discipline, reward, morals, values, birth control... it’s a long list when you’re hands are the only one’s holding it.

There’s never a break. Granted my children were teens and young adults. Not so much direct involvement required as younger children. However, this is quite a mess for a teen to find themselves within - a mom who doesn’t love or want them anymore. There are many many dark and dangerous roads for an adolescent to seek escape from such a painful slap across the face.

This was a challenging journey. Many open and difficult conversation with my children were had. Lots of questions asked, and surprisingly lots of questions actually answered. This is an incredible opportunity; one very few people even realize exists, never mind experience.

My wife’s leaving and not looking back, is just that. I was lost for a while. Scared and drowning in pain. And I walked out of that flaming wreckage.

We all start differently, and yet find ourselves upon a similar path. I know I’m not in your shoes, however I will walk with you, if you like.

In truth, when I started my journey, I wished for a more “normal” MLC spouse, and not one of such extreme. I had so wished she had remained living in the home. Lol.

We work on ourselves, and time does indeed heal. Perceptions do change.

I am truly happy. I have peace and joy and love.

Continue walking this most unwanted journey Sage. It’s ok, and quite normal, to have moments of wishing a different path. I did plenty of that.

Stay strong. You got this.

D

[may22]

Hi Sage,

Thinking of you. Hoping you have an amazing backpacking trip. I know to some degree how you are feeling about negotiating the time with the kids... I am right now dealing with a ton of anger towards my H for making me even need to think about that as a real possibility. It sVcks.

That being said... it is what it is. You can only control what you can control and it isn't your H's actions that got you to this place. You are taking this awful situation and navigating it with such grace and class-- I'm continually blown away by how amazing you are. You deserve to be angry about what he has done... and you are acknowledging that and putting it to the side so that you can do the best you can for your kids. You're incredible... keep it up. And enjoy that time!! xoxo M

[Sage4]

DnJ and May, thank you both so much for your encouraging words.

D, your words are so beautiful and impactful. I have a feeling that you were an amazing man before your wife left, but it certainly appears that this process has brought so much growth and learning opportunities for you. That is my prayer to the universe right now: if this hardship and heartbreak must happen to me, please open me up to all the lessons I have to learn and make me a better person as a result. Let something good come of all of this. Amen.

I swing wildly between wanting things to be different and clinging to hope, and letting go and getting on. I am reliving the trauma through my children's fear and sadness at the moment though, so that process of letting go (of the pain, suffering and heartbreak) is a wound that keeps getting salted. There have been some firsts in the past couple of weeks that are particularly poignant, so that doesn't help either. But I am trying to live each moment and move into a path of healing as best I can.

Unfortunately, things have gotten so untenable in my communication with H, I feel I need to go as NC as I possibly can. A simple conversation about basic un-heated topics turns into accusations of me being aggressive, controlling or manipulative. I don't use the right words, or in the right order, or my tone is not right. I feel like I either need to record our conversations or have someone else present as I truly can't see what I am saying or doing wrong and it is making me feel like I am insane. Is it common for an MLCer to have so much guilt, resentment and anger that they literally cannot even converse with their LBS without it adding to their laundry list of what a terrible person the LBS are? I know that H wants deep down to be friends and have an amicable split where we can spend time together as a family, but that is not possible for me when everything I say and do is construed and constructed to build his narrative of what a wicked person I am.

It is hard to not take that to heart. I want to be open to growth and learning opportunities in this process, I also want to validate and leave some space for us to be good in the future. But I can't control his narrative and that narrative is destroying my self-esteem and self-worth.

Man, this process is hard. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

[peacetoday]

Hi

Many a MLCer will try to make LBS react

they will use an argument or other ways to manipulate the truth so the LBS will react

This may prove to them they are doing the right thing by leaving and blaming the LBS for the issues instead of taking any responsibility for anything

NC is helpful or limiting contact and trying to not react

Knowing this is their strategy, they may totally believe it also that they are always right and you are controlling,.....or the problem

We have to have our own strategy to avoid the pit
stay calm and neutral

Could be something like

" Im sorry you feel that way"

"I hear what your saying"

"I cant talk right now" and leave the area

These responses may also anger the person who wants to fight but as we practice avoiding the pitfalls
we get better

KNOW it is nothing about you but its his stuff
The MLCer is not living in reality

They want to feel good and be happy but they do not realize that leaving the M will never fix their longstanding childhood issues, and MLC is about those unresolved issues not us