No changes on WAW - Pack_19 Part II

[LH19]

That was the famous day she said I only have to love her and there is no need to compensate the pain and she let me approach her.

Well how gracious of your royal heinous to let you approach her. (insert LH eye roll)

I have been holding onto that conversation like a life saving vest in the middle of the ocean.

As long as you hold on this tight do NOT expect anything to change and will likely worsen

It has been a long time and after covid lockdown our relationship has worsened.

See my comment above

She is fully NC unless about the kids, what you all have recommended time and time so I guess I need to finally drop that conversation as something strange that happened but means nothing and move on.

Exactly!

Yesterday night W video called S6 from a bar, she is always out as you can imagine when not with the kids.

As should you when you don't have the kids.

S6 kept replying he wants to be with me and W ended up saying he just made her really sad over and over.

Wow! She's trying to make a six year old feel bad about himself.

I was hearing while cooking and I felt like shouting quit manipulating S6 as well please. Am I being unreasonable?

No!

The worst about this is that I am sure she thinks I put ideas in S6 heads that he is better with me, that is what hurts the most.

Uuum how it's making your son feel should hurt the most. Plus you are mindreading which is a waste of time and energy.

Because you know I am the enemy. I know I show here a lot of attachment to W and focus on her but when I do gain clarity I am focused on 3 things. My personal growth, being the best father I can be and my goals in the PIES.

These are great goals!

Why am I jealous of the many times she is out at the bars?

Because you are needy and insecure and that's what most likely got you here in the first place.

I had a chat with a good friend yesterday, he told em if I want a chance at either getting W back or overcoming she moving on from me I need to get emotionally stronger.

He is a VERY wise man! You do need to get emotionally stronger.

I have been thinking about the message I got from the way of the superior man. We must have a goal and purpose above our R. What is mine? My dream was to work in Formula 1, that is not feasible now given the situation with the kids, what defines me then?

Stop making excuses. If that is your dream then make it happen.

Is being a great father enough to make you the man you want to be? not sure it is.

So you are only thinking about becoming a great father if it gets your wife back WTF????

I have been feeling like I lost the best thing I had in my life, maybe not a healthy thought.

Uuum no. You have your children, health, family, friends, a job and that's just off the top of my head.

Pack I get the feeling you are obsessed with your W and reading your posts make me uncomfortable. If I can feel it then I am 100% sure your W feels it and it makes her feel unsafe. Until you change your mindset I don't see anything changing.

[wooba]

I have read with interest about the thoughts on the man/woman we married is still in there and the love for him/her is well sheltered. I think this same thought has hurt me a lot in the sense of creating false expectations and the way I have approached my WAW. It seems to be an honorable feeling but yet it contradicts the lessons Sandi has tried to push in my head that she is a different person and my past W is "dead". what are your thoughts on this?

Hi Pack, thanks for dropping by my thread. I thought it’d be best to respond to you here. I think for someone like you who is having a hard time with detaching, to view your past W as “dead” is necessary for you to accept that she currently is not the girl you married. That’s why everyone recommended NC to you, because the more you interact with her, the more you try to pick up clues on whether the old her is still there....and usually you would end up hurting because you then realize she is not who she used to be. I have love for my old H. I do not love the man he is now. At the same time I am also still trying to wrap my head around our history together and figure out if I really saw him for who he was. I think the important thing is that you can love someone, but you need to love yourself first. You can still have love for your wife, but you should not allow someone to treat yourself poorly out of love. For me that love is a distant memory, I’d like to keep it for now to help me proceed with kindness. But I will not that be a hindrance for me to move forward with my life.

[Pack_19]

Well how gracious of your royal heinous to let you approach her. (insert LH eye roll)

This made me laugh, thanks LH. Yes I was such an idiot, during covid I thought well I am calmed and gave her lots of space and she is the one to stop to chat when we exchange the kids. (loud ringer sound!) I made many mistakes, need to accept M is over and not approach W. Working on that!

As should you when you don't have the kids.

consider it done!

Wow! She's trying to make a six year old feel bad about himself.

I was hearing while cooking and I felt like shouting quit manipulating S6 as well please. Am I being unreasonable?

No!

Thank you! I was literally standing next to S6 ready to intervene when I thought it wasn't worth it and went back into the kitchen to keep making dinner. Now the next question, when I see this happen, is it fine to speak to my son about it and reassure he loves us both but we do have amazing fun together and I understand him wanting to spend more time with me?

Because you know I am the enemy. I know I show here a lot of attachment to W and focus on her but when I do gain clarity I am focused on 3 things. My personal growth, being the best father I can be and my goals in the PIES.

These are great goals!

I revise them every day, it is my new compass. I am going to be the man I want to be and build an amazing live, for me, for my happiness!

Because you are needy and insecure and that's what most likely got you here in the first place.

I was never like this, just the opposite. I need to find myself again.

Stop making excuses. If that is your dream then make it happen.

I am going to focus on my dreams and making them happen. That is one good exercise for this new life I want to live. Think abaut the steps that will take me there, write them down.

So you are only thinking about becoming a great father if it gets your wife back WTF????

No no! The only one place in my current status where W has no space is my relationship with the kids, that is above all this hell I am going through.

Pack I get the feeling you are obsessed with your W and reading your posts make me uncomfortable. If I can feel it then I am 100% sure your W feels it and it makes her feel unsafe. Until you change your mindset I don't see anything changing.

I hear you LH. Thanks a lot for the comment. Can you please extend on this? I know I do post a lot about "W has said", "W has done", "I am hurting b/c...", it is because I want to let steam off. Hearing an external, objective person like you saying this really troubles me, in the sense that I think, I must be so stuck on this that people are even giving up on me. I will make an effort to post more on my changes and work on myself rather on W interactions. In fact, I will minimize the interactions with W and post more about my changes.

I need to regain my self esteem, emotional stability, independence and happiness. Aside from W.

Thanks for your post. I will tell you the same I say to Sandi all day long. Please keep helping me, I am listening.

[Pack_19]

I have read with interest about the thoughts on the man/woman we married is still in there and the love for him/her is well sheltered. I think this same thought has hurt me a lot in the sense of creating false expectations and the way I have approached my WAW. It seems to be an honorable feeling but yet it contradicts the lessons Sandi has tried to push in my head that she is a different person and my past W is "dead". what are your thoughts on this?

Hi Pack, thanks for dropping by my thread. I thought it’d be best to respond to you here. I think for someone like you who is having a hard time with detaching, to view your past W as “dead” is necessary for you to accept that she currently is not the girl you married. That’s why everyone recommended NC to you, because the more you interact with her, the more you try to pick up clues on whether the old her is still there....and usually you would end up hurting because you then realize she is not who she used to be. I have love for my old H. I do not love the man he is now. At the same time I am also still trying to wrap my head around our history together and figure out if I really saw him for who he was. I think the important thing is that you can love someone, but you need to love yourself first. You can still have love for your wife, but you should not allow someone to treat yourself poorly out of love. For me that love is a distant memory, I’d like to keep it for now to help me proceed with kindness. But I will not that be a hindrance for me to move forward with my life.

Hi wooba, thanks for the reply. I am struggling a lot to see her in that way, I am not sure why. She has done and said so many things to prove me she is moved on that it feels like I took the choice to stay there as some sort of way to remain loyal to my M. Maybe the way to do so is being back who I was and being happy again.

I do not love the woman she is now either. I wonder if she will ever consider fighting for me again, that is a healthier way to hope for the best and not being stuck where I stand now. My C has told me we need to focus on me first and set W apart, which I know I need, but I plan to also cover our history to see if there are things I could not see about her before.

Thank you wooba,
((hugs))

[LH19]

I hear you LH. Thanks a lot for the comment. Can you please extend on this? I know I do post a lot about "W has said", "W has done", "I am hurting b/c...", it is because I want to let steam off. Hearing an external, objective person like you saying this really troubles me, in the sense that I think, I must be so stuck on this that people are even giving up on me. I will make an effort to post more on my changes and work on myself rather on W interactions. In fact, I will minimize the interactions with W and post more about my changes.

You know exactly what you have to do because you have written below. For whatever reason you are having a tough time implementing it and letting go. Do you have abandonment issues?

I need to regain my self esteem, emotional stability, independence and happiness. Aside from W.

I just scanned through your posts going back to December. It sounds like your W is done and is going to be done for awhile. Things are going to have to get worse before they get better.

[Pack_19]

Hi again LH!

I was just doing the same, scanning through some of my early posts. Incredible how Sandi was telling me the thing to do since minute 1 and I was blocked to received the message, I think I am still blocked. Lately I have been feeling I know what I have to do, I have the support (this board and IC) to do it and all I have to do is get my hands dirty with the task.

I am going to have to make things worse before they change, I will continue to read on detachment and will focus on my personal goals.

I have never been left behind before, I guess receiving this from the person that promised to be my companion and support for the rest of her life hit me so hard it has done some deep damage in my brain and the way I think about myself. Let's see how the IC develops around this topic. I cant wait for the first session next monday.

The worst about knowing she is done is when she says "if you had changed 3 months earlier we wold not be here". It makes me feel like a big failure after the many times she told me we had issues and I did not seek help.

There is one last point I want to ask about. Last time I spoke to W at her place she said calmly that she left Germany and moved back because if I was to rebuild my life with a German woman she would be trapped in a country where she does not speak the language. I told her at no point I gave her signs of that but the opposite and she said I was so nervous and unstable that she could not trust it and needed to protect herself. Anyways, this always comes because I tell her we have never lived apart and went from at home as a family to "I want a D and a new life without you" to what she answers that she told me Feb 2019 that we were over. I never heard it that way but I cannot argue with her.

What are your views on what she is saying? does it make sense? Again, not that I am focusing on her, these are conversations I want to share here to see what your thoughts are if possible.

I also noticed she has removed all pictures from S6 and S2 from her living room, she has now all frames without pictures. That shocked me, just something to share!

Thanks for your help!

[LH19]

The worst about knowing she is done is when she says "if you had changed 3 months earlier we wold not be here". It makes me feel like a big failure after the many times she told me we had issues and I did not seek help.

It's all BS! People can only be angry at themselves for so long, and then they need to stop. What tends to happen at that point is that they look to displace blame. If someone stole money from you, initially they might be mad at themselves for doing it, but eventually they'll usually convince themselves that it was someone else's fault that they were in that position. Its just human nature.

As a WAS, they will often displace blame on the LBS because they need to give themselves some relief, so eventually they are angry at you for what you did, and then they are angry at you again for what they did.

If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless?

Can you see why if you address their past complaints now it just makes her angrier at you?

The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.

If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.

If she thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, she's still going to think of you as the guy that wears blue, because she literally can't see you right now.

WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.

If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.

When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.

THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.

That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.

I told her at no point I gave her signs of that but the opposite and she said I was so nervous and unstable that she could not trust it and needed to protect herself.

This says it all Pack. A woman is never going to want to be with someone they view as nervous and unstable. It makes her feel unsafe.

[Kind18]

The worst about knowing she is done is when she says "if you had changed 3 months earlier we wold not be here". It makes me feel like a big failure after the many times she told me we had issues and I did not seek help.

That’s utter BS. Don’t believe it for a second. This is typical WAW behaviour. They RUN from responsibility and accountability. She is saying that to gaslight you into believing everything is your fault, and to overcome her own internal guilt that she made the decision to end the relationship.

Don’t buy into crap like this.

[Pack_19]

hi LH, Kind,

Thanks for the comments. I think is late to not believe because I kind of accepted all the blame when I was feeling so low in Germany. Only the last time we spoke I heard her say it was not 100% my fault. I don't know if something is changing inside her, I am not going to waste more energy trying to find out.

It's time to make things worse, as the man I want to be!

[Pack_19]

hi all!

hope you had a great weekend! I was at the beach and had a great time with friends. I have been thinking a lot about the last messages I got from both LH and Sandi about making things worse, stop the fight for my M and how I am no longer the problem here. I want to make things worse but at the same time I have the feeling I might be doing this with the expectation that making things worse will bring some light. Again, I need to control those expectations but I wanted to ask.

At the beginning of this a lot of people told me W needed to experience some things before she would be ready to R, if ever. What do they mean by this? life without me? that single life fantasy?
I have the feeling I am much better but still have the thoughts of getting back together. Sometimes I forget the woman that left me home promised to be faithful and take care of me for the rest of her life. I don't mean this in a vindictive way, I just feel this weight on my chest every time I think about how quickly she gave up, she must have been very unhappy over the last couple of years in Germany.

It's summer and as you can imagine is hard to see all the young and attractive women in summer clothes, some of them do notice me, it is a good feeling but I am tired of keeping these physical needs for me. Not that I dont have the discipline to still wait, it is just frustrating.

I had a chat with W yesterday. She called because her mom fell by accident while holding S2 and he bit his lower lip and has some bad bruises. We talked about the kids and the new clothes I have bought for them. It was a nice conversation, I wonder if these neutral chats help or not. Again, I see other situations where after 1 year spouses are at least talking about other things aside from R, not sure if this is normal but I would like to have more of those conversations.

Long ago I made the decision to stand for my M. I think you are helping me see this has nothing to do with W but it is all about me. I want to keep standing, but it has been a year now and I have not seen a single positive sign from W.

I started reading DR again this weekend. Amazing how you can always find new important lines to keep in your head. I am going to make a new 180 list for me and I will post it here. I miss my children, I miss them badly. I am off to my first IC session now! will report this evening.

Thank you all for your help and support, I need to find more patient within myself