The default in a divorce in most places is an even split of everything you had until the date of filing. The only point of going to court is if one side (or both) have a reason to get more than 50-50.
Do not get into any conversation about any of this with an irrational person.
Do not discuss your relationship or what you deserve or what he deserves and do not think about that. Anything you say he will think is about you or coming from you.
Do not move back in with your parents. If you can't stand being inside with him, make yourself a she shed?
Go watch AOC's speech in Congress from yesterday and stand up for yourself.
But do make a list of what you are willing to take as a bottom line and how much money you are willing to lose to get that.
Don't lose your dignity. Don't sink to his level. But don't believe lies or engage them. Don't tell him the secrets of your heart or how he hurt you. Tell us or a journal or a friend or a tree or God, if you have faith. (Or even if you don't!)
I would suggest inviting him to mediation. It's much cheaper.
Mediation doesn't work very well with an irrational person. But it's worth a try. It might at least educate him about what is a potential outcome of going thruugh the courts.
You could also file the original papers yourself while you look for a lawyer. The Southern Poverty Law Center has good resources and your local pro se office might too. You just need to make a formal request for all the documents you need. And if he won't give them, you get them by subpeona.
If you do not believe what I am saying, go read my story.
This is business, business only. Your love, your R, your potential for future reconciliation has nothing to do with this. And now is not the time for closure.The man you are talking to is not your H. He is an alien. Aliens can't give you closure. You can have closure or reconciliation when the real H is back. Right now the fake H wants a divorce and to split your stuff. So get the most equitable split you can while maintaining your dignity.
Your state has laws about equitable distribution. Follow those and don't engage in any talk about anything else. If he wants to do better than the laws in your state,he can make you an offer and you can consider it. Or you can make an offer. Threatening you or being verbally or financially abusive is not an offer. And the judge doesn't care if you were a bad wife or had a sexless marriage.They just want to know how you are going to split the stuff. Stay focused.
Everyone told me the same and I didn't believe it. I suffered far more than I had to, and I am still in h$ll of a never ending divorce.
Last edited by Gerda; 07/26/2012:10 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Yes, foxpop, I'm pretty sure he would have had to get an annulment within a certain time frame. I have kept written notes on all of our conversations for the past year. My friends and family know what is going on and how he has blown up at me. I will ask a lawyer about recording things.
Right now I'm feeling disappointed that I let myself be drawn into this long conversation. I was so good about this for a whole year. I didn't follow Gerda's advice today. I don't know what to say, but it felt like I was in a fog the whole time. I couldn't get out of the hole I was digging. I know it just fueled his anger. No matter what, he always came back to blaming me 100%. At certain points I said, I don't think this is helpful for me to sit here and be attacked, but I got drawn in again somehow. I guess this was me trying to see if we could discuss an agreement, and it was a resounding no.
I even said when he kept insisting on no mediation: What worries me about trying to negotiate with you is that you are now just saying what you think I deserve and listing off everything I do not. He definitely baited me, and I took it, and what followed provided him just more confirmation of his justifications.
He must know there's no way the law would say it is acceptable for him to withdraw so much money from our account, even if my name was not on it, when it is clearly community property. He even admitted he knew it was bad before he started trying to justify it again.
I am worried about how much it's going to cost to look into that and determine what of the money he withdrew was for joint expenses and what was for his own purchases. I know it's a red flag, but in our M he never told me how much debt he had on his credit card. I hope this will some how work in my favor--that he said he was paying joint expenses, but never made me aware of the extent of these expenses.
He is going to be even angrier when I get a lawyer after I said I would try to try to negotiate with him, since he entered into this convo accusing me of trying to go after his pension. I just want the minimum I am entitled to, including the savings he used to pay his credit card. How do I handle this? Stop engaging completely? Say, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and leave the house? I hate having to leave the house when his attitude is that I shouldn't be here in the first place.
Gerda--I just read your note! He doesn't want mediation. I am wondering now even if we had mediation, how it would help if he is unwilling to accept that I deserve what the law states. Is it because the mediator would be the one telling him what the courts would decide, and not me? Would this somehow make him act rationally? And would the mediator be able to address the money he has taken out of our savings? I prefer mediation, but I was thinking a lawyer would have to divide up what of the money he has taken should be mine.
Editing one more time to just say... I don't know how to force him to go to mediation. And telling him that lawyers are going to cost more doesn't sway him either, because he doesn't think he will have to pay for any of my attorney fees. I don't even know how the court makes another party pay logistically--I'm just going by what the lawyers I consulted with said.
You are on two paths. I’ve been encouraging you along the emotional path; time for a change. The business side needs attention - and now!!!
Find your indifference to H, and get a good grip on it. You can let your emotions out later, but when dealing with the business at hand stay focused and indifferent. Logical and reasoned, little emotion.
See a lawyer right a way!
Your H has shown his hand; and that’s not the worst of it, more is coming. MLCers feel entitled, you owe them, blah bah blah. They will use the legal system to its fullest for their gain. My XW threatened me with police action as well. Hahaha, oh they and their threats are so childish.
See a lawyer right away! (I said that twice because it’s that important)
Do not fall into that trap of- well I’ll just give him the house because after we separate and pay everything nothing will be left. BS!!! Do not do that!
You said yourself you don’t know how much money there is. He is lying to you.
Get a lawyer and let them deal with all of this. Tell them how H won’t give you the documents, or account access, etc. Tell them about all assets, that includes the car. It doesn’t matter who’s name it is in, everything is a marital asset; and you have a right to half of everything.
Let your L do all the investigating. They are very good at their job. They have much experience and this process is very thorough and efficient. Let your lawyer at H, and you just stand clear.
This is a business deal gone bad. That’s all. Be indifferent and be businesslike.
H is obviously angry, confused, and irrational. You cannot get through to him. Go dark or dim. Seriously. The guy is blaming you and threatening to leave you penniless. By the way, an annulment has some specific conditions that need to be met to invalidate the marriage. From what I know of your situation, none of them apply. One just can’t go get annulment of marriage; there must cause.
H is displaying very typical MLCer behaviour and threats. Let him. Seek legal counsel and financially protect yourself and get financial security.
H’s journey is all about him. He will use you and play you along. You don’t allow that - be businesslike.
None of this affects your other path. You are healing and finding your beliefs - for you.
cardinal, nothing you do will affect H or his path. And yet everything you do will. No one can predict how a MLCer will react to what we do. That is one reason why we don’t manipulate. Live your life for you. You be happy and find peace. Let the chips fall where they do.
H is on a runaway train, heading for a wreck. You best get off the train and get out of the way. You cannot stop this wreck. H cannot either. Sorry.
H will ramp up his projections and blaming. Do not fall prey to his poisonous words. He see the world through a lens of despair and depression. Don’t get dragged down in to that.
Stay strong my friend. This is just business and unfortunately a usual necessity for the LBS.
You got this.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Is it because the mediator would be the one telling him what the courts would decide, and not me? Would this somehow make him act rationally?
No one can make a person act rationally.
My XW was quite irrational and sped through her divorce, much against the advice of her lawyer. He actually made her see two financial planners and a doctor and sign a waiver that she was acting against his advice. She still went ahead with the speedy separation.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't know how to force him to go to mediation. And telling him that lawyers are going to cost more doesn't sway him either, because he doesn't think he will have to pay for any of my attorney fees.
You cannot force a MLCer to do anything. Apply force, and they will come out swinging.
And you cannot reason with them. These are desperate people and desperate people do desperate things. You trying to reason with H will be seen as a threat and he will push back.
For right now, let your L gather the information. You’re going to need to at some point. You cannot trust H anyhow, he will try to hide stuff.
Then, with the full picture, you will know. The probable spilt and allowances for you. It is at this time you can negotiate, not until. Do not negotiate with H until you have all the facts.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
He’s just blowing smoke up your behind. Get a lawyer. Get a temporary support order.
How much in money and assets are we talking about here? Rough estimate? How much equity in the house? How much was there in savings? How much will he get with his pension and how far off is that?
Frankly the fact that he never put your name on the savings account even though he put your funds into it too is a HUGE red flag.
But looking at the total financial picture can give you a better idea of what’s worth fighting and what isn’t. If there’s $100k in house equity you need to fight for that; if it’s only worth 10k over what you I’m paid for it it may not be worth the fight. Did he spend $5k in savings to pay off his credit cards or $50 k? Is his pension worth $600 a month or $6,000?
Don’t let him gaslight you, just tell him you’re not asking for anything the law doesn’t say is yours.
Consult a lawyer. I didn’t have a free formal consultation with a L but did manage to get a few questions answered through email without paying.
Calculate the cost/benefit and see whether some things are worth fighting for.
Document your interaction with H. Make notes of what he’s said.
Communicate with H by email. Even if you two live under the same roof. For documentation. He’s spewing hate in your face and making threats, that’s harder to record. But in email there’s proof.
Like Gerda said, watch AOC’s speech!! Absolutely gold.
Finally, keep walking the path of compassion and kindness. Do not let him drag you down to his level. You will rise above it. I know things are difficult, I’m in the same boat as you. In the end I would like to look back and know that I did all the right things regardless of how low my H has become.
I want to reply to all of you but just quickly wanted to reply to kml.
We had roughly 27k in savings last July, a month after BD. In that month, from the one statement I saw, he had removed about 8k. Let's say 2k of that was for both of our car repairs. Now he's telling me there's 15k left. I suppose there might be a time when I say it would be better to just divide that 15k that's left 50-50, as trying to figure out where the other 12k went would cost as much as the half I would be getting of it--does that make sense?
House is rental. I am on unemployment and working reduced hours at my job right now, while he has a guaranteed job and additional gig income. I feel that it is way more of a hardship on me to have to suddenly leave my house, when the rent is below the current market and anything else I could find. Even before the pandemic, the two Ls I spoke too agreed that it made sense for me to stay in the house. Of course H thinks I deserve nothing, so I'm not sure, now that he's backtracked on his plan to move out, how that would be settled. He thinks if I don't leave the house, he will take the pets, and that's the offer he made after his tirade.
I have unemployment money on a state-provided debit card from the last three months that I'm hoping he won't be entitled to. I've been trying to save as much of it as I can to support myself on my own--to help pay for rent until I get my first paycheck from teaching gig in November and to pay for IC.
That's it for assets other than two older cars in his name, one which we drove out here in before we were married (I gave up my old car and we kept his instead); one which we were given after we married. He owns many tools that are probably worth something, and many, many expensive pocketknives (some of which he's acquired in the last year, so that, for instance, is not a joint expense he says he was using our savings money for!) that are definitely worth something.
Oh, and pension--I don't know what it is worth and would need to find that out from a lawyer. A good pension over ten years divided between both of us. I'm thinking it must be worth something, or he wouldn't be so angry about me "fighting him" for it.
I tried to tell him I only wanted what the law says I am entitled to, but of course that doesn't compute to him. He just repeats that I am being mean and fighting to take away what he worked so hard to earn.
When you are back to full time hours will you actually be making enough to live on? If not, would you be better off moving in with the folks and getting a job where you have free rent for a while?
If you keep the rental house can you get a roommate to help with expenses?
Definitely fight for your share Of the pension if it’s a good one - also is there a significant difference between your usual salary and his? If so, you may qualify for 5 years alimony.
Hi, kml! Yes, when I am FT I will make enough to live on, barely, with his support. I will also have the extra income from my fall classes to get me through until I can get a better job. He makes about 3x or more what I do right now, so every lawyer has said I am eligible for support, but how much is negotiable. I do need the higher end of the support range, and I don’t know how realistic that is if he has this attitude. Moving in with my parents would mean leaving my life here in this state. Because I can make it on my own with support, even if barely, and because I am entitled to support, I don’t feel it’s fair for me to give all that up and start my life over right now. Maybe I would consider that in the future, but I don’t want to be forced to do it now just because he doesn’t want to give me support that I am entitled to. His attitude is that I don’t deserve it, and who cares if that means I have to move cross country to live with my parents. He feels he is entitled to a life here and I am not.
Plus, yes, if worse comes to worse and I haven’t been able to get a job with insurance and better pay in six months, I could look for a roommate. Otherwise I would be paying the same price for a one bedroom or even studio in some cases if I was forced out because of the way the current rental market is, with no opportunity for the roommate back-up plan.
The other plus to staying here is that there are more career opportunities for me as I make this transition to a FT position in a related field. My parents live in very small town.
