I realize you said this is what convos were like in the past, and that they have changed, but I wanted to delve into this a little not just for you but for whoever is reading this:
Originally Posted by Core
Her: You're targeting me (or attacking me, hurt me, etc...real life examples, leaving a dish on the counter, not being ok with S1 playing in a moldy basement, threw out expired food) Core: I'm sorry you're feeling attacked. What caused you to feel this way?
One of the main topics of Retrouvaille is that we all have our feelings, and we are all entitled to our feelings. You may think your W's feelings are wrong or invalid for a particular situation, but nevertheless, it's how she feels and it is important to acknowledge her feelings. So in RV parlance, in the above case your response should be "how did that make you feel?" instead of "what caused you to feel this way?" Because what you are trying to get to the root of is HOW she feels, not WHY. The why doesn't really matter. What she wants is for you to know how she feels and to allow her to feel that way.
"I hear you saying you think I am targeting you, how does that make you feel?"
"I'm upset and frustrated, you never blah blah blah and you always blah blah blah."
So she shared a little about her feelings and simultaneously attacked you. Ignore the attack and focus on the feelings:
"Yes you do sound upset and frustrated. I am sorry I made you feel that way."
Notice you are not apologizing for what you did, you're apologizing for making her feel a certain way. In fact you may not think you did anything wrong. You left a dish on the counter, so what. BUT IT'S A BIG DEAL TO HER, it made her upset, so you apologize for making her feel that way even if you think it's silly or ridiculous that she is bothered by a dish on the counter. Now here is the magic of this process, NOW she feelings like you are LISTENING to her, and you are allowing her to have her feelings so she no longer feels the need to fight/ argue about it. Usually what happens next is something you're not expecting. SHE will apologize or express regret.
"I guess leaving a dish on the counter is really no big deal, I'm sorry I got mad about it."
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2 days later Core: You look upset, is anything wrong? Her: No Core: Ok
Another point they make in RV is not to ask if something is "wrong" because that puts the person on the defensive. You are inadvertently calling her feelings "wrong". Instead, just ask how she's feeling.
"How are you feeling today, you seem upset, is that how you feel?"
It may seem like a minor difference but asking what is wrong will almost always get a "I'm fine" or "nothing" type of response whereas asking how she feels will encourage her to open up. Also maybe she's not upset, but you've opened the door for her to share what she's feeling.
"I'm not upset, just frustrated over XYZ."
"I can see why that would be frustrating, I'm sorry you're struggling with XYZ."
There have been times where my GF just shut down on me and I assumed she was mad at me or I did something wrong. If I ask "what's wrong" I'll get the "nothing" response, because she tends to internalize things and doesn't want to talk about it. But if I ask her how she's feeling, she almost always will share it.
This is an actual example of a time I thought GF was mad at me for something, I didn't hear from her for over a day and then got a very snippy message:
"You seem angry, is that how you feel?"
"No I'm frustrated because of (D12), I found out she's been sexting with boys in her school and trading lewd pictures."
So here I was thinking she was mad at me, but I fought the urge to say "why are you mad at me" (which also sounds selfish, like I'm trying to make everything about me) and instead asked about her feelings only to find out something else was going on that she was upset about (and rightfully so).
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Core: Will you just tell me what's wrong, I know you're holding something in Her: Its nothing
Again this puts her on the defensive and her walls go up. Her response is completely normal for a challenge like that.
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Core: Just tell me, I dont believe you
And then you call her a liar, yikes! If she says nothing is wrong then just move on to the next subject. Maybe she'll open up about it later.
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Her: You did X (something completely normal, or held a boundary, or didnt allow her to control me) and you dont trust me Core: You've been upset about that this whole time? And I didnt believe you because something was wrong and youre admitting to it just now. I hear you saying that (XYZ action) makes you feel like you can't trust me, is that how you're feeling?
Remember, her feelings are her feelings whether you think they're valid or not.
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Her: yes, thats what I said, im mad about X and because you dont trust me Core: I feel like youve blocked me out for weeks because of that, I wish you couldve told me sooner.So I did X which made you feel mad and like you can't trust me. I am sorry I made you feel that way, I will work on this in the future. Thank you for sharing this with me.
Make sure that you understand validation, and that you REALLY ARE validating and not just -thinking- you are validating. Sometimes someone here will say "my spouse said XYZ and I validated but it went poorly" and I'll ask them to describe the conversation and it turns out they did not validate at all. Validation is very misunderstood and can be a disaster if not done properly.
Journaling: Im back on the thoughts of W having BPD, the latest: W: be careful while pouring milk W: stop when the milks high D4: *spills* oops, sorry mommy W: why didn't you listen to me, thats not nice D4: i got distracted W: you shouldnt ignore mommy, now theres a mess D4: i didnt ignore mommy, i was distracted W: you didnt listen D4: sorry mommy
Core, how does disciplining a child who isn't paying attention BPD?
Your daughter was told to be careful and then wasn't careful. I applaud your wife for this interaction, she did what a good parent does.
Except, who expects a 4 year-old to pour milk properly?!?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
"I understand." "So you are saying you feel X......" Etc.
Her feelings are not your responsibility and you shouldn't apologize when she feels certain ways. Validation is about understanding how she feels, not apologizing for it. I take issue with validation statements that include "I am sorry."
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Well AS, you did something I didn't think could happen at this point. You knocked me back out of being 100 percent sure I'm ready to move on. Its guilt thats stopping me know. Not your fault by any means. Seeing the holes you poked in to our communications, I see how some more of this is my fault or something I could've done differently. I know whats going to happen though, as a WAS would, I'm going to find something else or validation to bring me back to 100 percent certain. As others pointed out with me not being fully detached, I still look for positives as well. There arent many.
I don't like what seems to work. What I mean by that..W has been in my mind causing conflict all day. She eventually said, "youre going to put the dishes away". I said, "you're going to ask me respectfully". I know, there is so much wrong with my response, I was utterly sick of her stuff and didnt care. She responded, "can you please put the dishes away"? She was nicer, more cheerful and alive for the rest of the day, even when the kids became a handful. If talking to her like that works, well I dont like it. For her and moreso for D4 and S. I dont want them to learn it.
Steve-good point on spilling milk. I thought that at one point as well. Of course a 4yo will spill milk, especially a gallon size. "No use crying over spilled milk". My parents would get upset at things like that which I think impacted my confidence and brought on some anxiety. As a kid, you feel blamed and think well, I just wont do it again or I cant do anything right.
Noted on the saying sorry when validating. I agree there. Both sides kind of make sense. Its like saying sorry a loved one passed away. It does seem like W makes her feelings my responsibility and if I say sorry, in her mind I may be guilty. Mayne a mix of your approach and ASs. AS, retro almost sounds good for life skills in general. It sounds like you got alot from it. I'm glad you went through the efforts to clean up how my old communications were. I can see I've got room for improvements as Im better now, but no where near like you wrote, especially at times of stress.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
Well AS, you did something I didn't think could happen at this point. You knocked me back out of being 100 percent sure I'm ready to move on.
Great! Divorce isn't the end of the world, but it will impact your kids. With 50/50 custody, you're not insulating your kids from experiencing her parenting style, you're insulating yourself from it.
Originally Posted by Core
Seeing the holes you poked in to our communications, I see how some more of this is my fault or something I could've done differently.
Obviously, her communication could use work as well. "Youre going to put the dishes away" is controlling. "You're going to ask me respectfully" is also controlling. High criticism and defense. Low listening and validation. As AnotherStander says, a change on one side can have a surprising impact. In many situations I'm like, "Move on! They're a lying cheater." Here I see hope, if you could be the first to change. It doesn't always work but improving communication is worth a shot. Worst-case, it'll help with co-parenting.
Hi CW, Nice to see you checking in on me. Overall, I'm avoiding non logistics interactions as much as possible now however if a conflict does come up, I do intend to handle them with some enhanced validation. Cant say ill always be able to. If I'm not, Im going to either try brushing things off, or avoiding/leaving the situation.
We all know myself or my counselor cannot diagnose someone, especially with something as serious as a full blown disorder. What is reality and known however is that W is often exhibiting those traits. Whether its a disorder or not, its not ok. I know I cant link on here but if you search for quiet bpd, its pretty spot on to what I've been experiencing with W. If you look up trauma bond, its very much what I've gone through here. I think I finally broke from it. No going back however I still want to treat W with respect, and compassion as another human and mother of my kids. Before all her trauma or somewhere in her, she probably acted like my D4 or S whom are wonderful.
Unchien said before I'm a few paces behind him. It seems more true everyday.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
Hey Core, If she does have BPD, one of the best tools you have for interacting is validation. So, either BDP or not, you should probably work on the validation skills. It is helpful in every relationship and even more so for a relationship with someone with BPD.
I'm out of the fog. I've been looking back on things and see just how one sided the relationship was with W and I. There are so many red flags I overlooked, missed, ignored or thought would change. I'm still glad I married as I wouldn't have these wonderful kids. Now though as I prep for the possible worst here, I no longer hang my head in shame or longing. Disappointment, yes, shame no. Finding two places to live, and daycare, and affording it all is going to be hard. The drain of resources and energy in the process will be hard to feeling impossible depending how it goes. I expect high conflict and prepped my lawyer for such if we D.
I'm going to take a short break here and I concentrate on myself and what I need to do to keep on my improvements, and to give my kids a better outcome. I plan on returning soon, avoiding my sitch for the most part as recommended by lawyer.
I've gone back on some improvements as a wave of depression and reality rolled over me. I'll get back where I was then further along soon enough. One of many hurdles. My son is talking now. His sister and I are thrilled as our dynamic is much different as hes seemingly learning a new word every few days. My L said to keep my existing IC in case needed if we go the D route and his feedback is needed. I am now aligned. I now feel like I'm doing whats right. I wasnt before. I thank all of you that helped and supported me the last several months here. Good luck on your sitches and improvements.
H37, W37 D4, S2 ILYBNILWY 9/19 BD 9/19 EA discovered 10/19 Currently in limbo, no D or S process initiated
Core, not sure I agree with your lawyer here. Posting here for me was cathartic. The 2x4s kept me accountable. The perspectives helped me to see my sitch in ways I never could on my own. Coming here can help you keep your focus on you and your kids, and off of your sitch, not the other way around. The focus on your sitch starts just north of your neck, not in posting on this forum. So not posting here likely won't help you avoid your sitch, as your own mind is what keeps you so focused on it.
If not posting helps you not obsess, then fine. But I found that posting here helped me not obsess.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
