No changes on WAW - Pack_19 Part II

[Pack_19]

I have been thinking my last post really gives the impression I dont listen. I understand I need to stop trying to save my M and move the focus towards me and my changes. What I meant to ask is when you want to stay strong in the hope for the best and at the same time need to lovingly detach and let WAW go. I have my list of GAL activities and I try to stick to them but I mean in terms of how to view your past R, think about the one you would ideally like to develop and how to healthy cut the interactions and stop being a plan B for WAW.

Would it be more helpful if I row in the opposite direction? Should I put extra emphasis on meeting women as many friends have recommended?

On occasions like tomorrow (S1 BD party) should I share some video/pics with W or not?

Thank you all for your help! I am listening, I fear I am still emotionally a big mess at the moment but I will pick myself up.

[LH19]

You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support (no pictures or videos) and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, *she* needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.

If she gets mad at you, you shrug it off, you don't engage.

If she cries in front of you, you let her cry and you make NO effort to comfort her.

You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel *any* responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.

Very important: You are *not* mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.

When she senses that she's losing control over you, she *will* fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll scream and yell, she'll accuse, she'll break down and cry, she'll blame. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel *worse* than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.

You being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.

It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.

She needs to *fully believe* that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.

Ever run into a crazy person on the sidewalk who points at you and yells at you? You do what you can to minimize the interaction but after that you move on. It doesn't ruin your day, it certainly doesn't hurt your self-esteem or make you feel worse about who you are.

You need to regard her with exactly the same level of detachment and disinterest. Whatever she does, your toes are still tapping.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.

Pack, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything she told you about your faults was nonsense to justify her leaving. When you then respond to her complaints you validate them, so she feels even more entitled to leave.

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for months.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.

She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.

You need to make things *worse* before they can get better.

Are you willing to do that?

[Traveler]

Good message by LH. I’ll second “no” on sending pics/videos. That is actually fine and common between co-parents, but you are struggling to detach, so extra unnecessary communication would be best avoided.

[Pack_19]

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for months.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.

She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.

You need to make things *worse* before they can get better.

Are you willing to do that?

It has always been that sense of guilt and responsibility for our problems that has lead me to believe the one path to R was to change myself and show her the love I did not show at home because of all my problems. As Sandi always tells me, it is the wrong timing, if there is ever to be a good one it is not now.

I am sooo tired of my useless behavior and my mistakes. I have my first IC session in Spain next Monday. Let's see how that turns out. I am so tired of feeling trapped in this situation, of taking guesses on whether she is with OP or going throw a miserable time, if she ever thinks about me. I have all these activities in mind to make my GAL amazing but I am paralyzed by the financial debt we have with the new house in Germany and my responsibilities as a father (I feel if I go out and put more time on me it is at the expense of time with C)

I am more than willing to do the *worse*, I need it like fresh air because I am suffocating in my own same old patterns.

I have now my certification and things are going good at work, I am more in shape than ever, where do I go next? social activities? church? going out with friends?

Thanks for your help LH. I am no safety net for anyone, I might have my issues and character to tame but I deserve a person who is willing to fight for me.

GALing like a teenager!

[LH19]

It has always been that sense of guilt and responsibility for our problems that has lead me to believe the one path to R was to change myself and show her the love I did not show at home because of all my problems.

That's just your brain trying to get you to pursue. It's a defense mechanism.

I am so tired of feeling trapped in this situation, of taking guesses on whether she is with OP or going throw a miserable time, if she ever thinks about me.

Total waste of time and energy.

I have all these activities in mind to make my GAL amazing but I am paralyzed by the financial debt we have with the new house in Germany and my responsibilities as a father (I feel if I go out and put more time on me it is at the expense of time with C)

Think of the analogy with the oxygen mask on the airplane. You need to save yourself in order to save your children.

I have now my certification and things are going good at work, I am more in shape than ever, where do I go next? social activities? church? going out with friends?

Social activities and hanging out with friends is attractive.

GALing like a teenager!

Exactly!

[Pack_19]

thanks LH, I am going to throw my S2 an amazing birthday party now and I will come back to the board!

[Pack_19]

hi all!

I hope summer is going as good as the covid situation allows!

It has been the first weekend of rowing against my instincts to show love and change to W. In terms of GAL, great fun at the beach with the kids. I got S6 to ride waves on a body board, was swimming with him, we saw a couple of small fish banks...

Saturday I smashed my 5Km and 1 mile personal records and I would have done the same with the 10km but I run out of town by 9.5 km and I was a bit lazy to go the extra half km hahaha. I was out having fun Saturday after Iput the kids to sleep and left them with my parents and I made some progress with the project I have coming up in August.

I have two massive demons fighting in my head. On the one side there is a train of thoughts that pushes me to stay calm, do my thing, hope for the best and be patient and let her be. On the other side I have all these thoughts about how unhealthy it is that I have been holding on to a dead M for a year almost, that W does not love me, does not care about me and how that should fuel me to move on and seek time with the people that are willing to receive my love. I am very tired of reading books about relationships, differences between men and women, habits and traits of healthy and lasting Ms and improved sexual practices to think about applying it with W and then crashing against the reality I live every day.

I am going to my first IC session today. It will only be to meet the people there and understand how it would work. I plan to cover there my problems and also why I cannot let go of my M and W and hopefully get help to detach and think about current R with W in a healthier way.

I know I cannot be centered on W and you guys are helping me a lot but I have been feeling very down lately due to her last interactions with me. As you know, after we signed the agreement and I went to her place to talk things through a couple of times the only things she has told me are that she "will not be with me right now" and that she has already said all she had to. I am sorry for bringing her up again but I am so frustrated with how closed she still is. It has been a year and it feels like the first day when she left, blamed me for everything and said she was done and had fought enough for us so she moved on to make a new live where I was not allowed to be in at all. I read other threads in the board and some people are talking to WAS way earlier than this, even if it is to politely ask if there are plans to take a summer trip with the kids.

I cannot understand when W says she is having an awful time, she cannot sleep well and she never wanted this but I pushed her to it but then when the opportunity arises to do something to have fun and move on from the S and the mistakes we both have made her answer is simply "I dont want to be with you, I am not happy, but neither was with you". I guess I am hurting more than a sensible person would because as stuck as I was in the mindset to win her back I always thought by summer this year we would have at least had a conversation about how we can move on pass the S. I need to work on my expectations, I need to kill them basically.

I have the feeling W is sheltered in her family at the moment. Yesterday when she called S6 she was with her brother and SIL at home and I bet she has no time to think about our family or myself, too bad, I am ready to give her a new R in both emotional and physical sense. There is something I wanted to ask here. As you know W told me I was to blame that we have not had a chance to talk by now because I went behind her back finding a second L and I was unfair financially. She said for her my value as a man was also shown via the conditions I wanted to reflect on our S agreement. My L agreed with W in the sense that withdrawing as much financial support as possible also shows what kind of person I am and my values. Are they right? I know I cannot nice my way back to M but this is so wicked. When I was nice and tried to show love and distance, I had been a monster, destroyed my M for 5 years and never cared about my vows. When I tried to be strong and enforce boundaries I was a monster for trying to remove financial support and hiring a L behind her. I feel like screaming at my pillow.

It does feel really bad to go against my poor instincts, I feel the distance between us is growing and eventually with time I will forget about our life together or at least I will not miss it as I do now, but I am a person of value and I deserve healthy relationships in my life.

Thank you all for your help and please keep posting!

all the best! Pack

[LH19]

It has been the first weekend of rowing against my instincts to show love and change to W. In terms of GAL, great fun at the beach with the kids. I got S6 to ride waves on a body board, was swimming with him, we saw a couple of small fish banks... [/quote]
That sounds awesome!

Saturday I smashed my 5Km and 1 mile personal records and I would have done the same with the 10km but I run out of town by 9.5 km and I was a bit lazy to go the extra half km hahaha. I was out having fun Saturday after Iput the kids to sleep and left them with my parents and I made some progress with the project I have coming up in August.

Great stuff! Keep it up.

I am very tired of reading books about relationships, differences between men and women, habits and traits of healthy and lasting Ms and improved sexual practices to think about applying it with W and then crashing against the reality I live every day.

Those books should be for your next relationship whether it's with your W or someone else.

I am going to my first IC session today. It will only be to meet the people there and understand how it would work. I plan to cover there my problems and also why I cannot let go of my M and W and hopefully get help to detach and think about current R with W in a healthier way.

I think this is a great idea for you!

As you know, after we signed the agreement and I went to her place to talk things through a couple of times the only things she has told me are that she "will not be with me right now" and that she has already said all she had to.

You like getting kicked in the balls don't you Pack?

I am sorry for bringing her up again but I am so frustrated with how closed she still is.

ahhhhh those expectations. She says X and I fix X then she will X. It NEVER works that way.

It has been a year and it feels like the first day when she left, blamed me for everything and said she was done and had fought enough for us so she moved on to make a new live where I was not allowed to be in at all.

Of course your the blame for everything.

I read other threads in the board and some people are talking to WAS way earlier than this, even if it is to politely ask if there are plans to take a summer trip with the kids.

My guess is that is because you continue to apply pressure with relationship talks.

I cannot understand when W says she is having an awful time, she cannot sleep well and she never wanted this but I pushed her to it but then when the opportunity arises to do something to have fun and move on from the S and the mistakes we both have made her answer is simply "I dont want to be with you, I am not happy, but neither was with you".

Pack no one goes into a marriage wanting a D. So your thought process is that since she's miserable then she mind as well be miserable with you?????

I guess I am hurting more than a sensible person would because as stuck as I was in the mindset to win her back I always thought by summer this year we would have at least had a conversation about how we can move on pass the S. I need to work on my expectations, I need to kill them basically.

You should have zero expectations about anything from her.

I have the feeling W is sheltered in her family at the moment.

Mindreading. Complete waste of time.

Yesterday when she called S6 she was with her brother and SIL at home and I bet she has no time to think about our family or myself, too bad, I am ready to give her a new R in both emotional and physical sense.

Mindreading. Complete waste of time.

There is something I wanted to ask here. As you know W told me I was to blame that we have not had a chance to talk by now because I went behind her back finding a second L and I was unfair financially. She said for her my value as a man was also shown via the conditions I wanted to reflect on our S agreement. My L agreed with W in the sense that withdrawing as much financial support as possible also shows what kind of person I am and my values. Are they right?

If you are being fair with the support then no. If you are not then yes. Is she having an affair?

I know I cannot nice my way back to M but this is so wicked. When I was nice and tried to show love and distance, I had been a monster, destroyed my M for 5 years and never cared about my vows. When I tried to be strong and enforce boundaries I was a monster for trying to remove financial support and hiring a L behind her. I feel like screaming at my pillow.

There is nothing you can do right now to get her back. NOTHING!

It does feel really bad to go against my poor instincts, I feel the distance between us is growing and eventually with time I will forget about our life together or at least I will not miss it as I do now, but I am a person of value and I deserve healthy relationships in my life.

This is exactly what you want Pack. You have a hard time understanding that she doesn't want to be with you right now and probably won't for a very long time. If you don't tighten up your game this may end up being a permanent thing for you.

[Pack_19]

You like getting kicked in the balls don't you Pack?

Apparently I do, to levels I could never imagine. Can I attach value to the fact that W said we are now separated but that does not mean this has to end like this? I am a sad plan B person?

My guess is that is because you continue to apply pressure with relationship talks.

No I genuinely mean it. I read other threads where spouses are talking about going for a trip, some still live together even after the S. The other day it was the first time I heard W say I am not 100% to blame, not sure if it means some internal changes are beginning, I dont want to get any hopes high. I have cut talks, as I said LH, I want to row against the current position my mind has been stuck on.

Pack no one goes into a marriage wanting a D. So your thought process is that since she's miserable then she mind as well be miserable with you?????

No way! I genuinely want her to be happy. I just see so many things we have done wrong and she always says for her ideal happiness is a loving family. We have been parents above all, the intimacy or sex were never a priority, I think for her as well. We had stress and a very hard social life in Germany. I genuinely think there were many problems, hence there is plenty of room for improvement. I know I cannot make her see this, just my personal view on our M. It makes me sad I could "cause" this mess and I cannot undo a bit of it.

Mindreading. Complete waste of time.

Thanks a lot! I know it is!

If you are being fair with the support then no. If you are not then yes. Is she having an affair?

I thought it was fair and I asked my L for it. The thing is that she has moved to the best neighborhood in the city and she would be forced to move. Guess what, we were arguing about this and she cried telling me my L is a b@tch who has no idea what her expenses are. I am quite sure she is not having a A, I have not snooped, it does no good to me and I have always thought if she was to put an end to our M in such a disrespectful way, it would be the best trigger for me to move on.

This is exactly what you want Pack. You have a hard time understanding that she doesn't want to be with you right now and probably won't for a very long time. If you don't tighten up your game this may end up being a permanent thing for you.

It is devastating to know the person who promised to always support and be with you thinks this way. She must have felt the same when I was in my darkest time at home and I could not see what matters in life. I feel like I touched bottom as a man, I need to improve on so many areas.

I got a letter today about the next payment for the mortgage and the bank has requested an assessment of our current financial situation. I have emailed my advisor in Germany to see how I can handle this. Once the purchase I was most proud of in my life and it tastes disgusting right now, as if it was a mistake and I got my feet in too much financial problem for my age. The home I wanted to settle in with my family for the next 5-8 years is now a nightmare I want to run away from. WTF am I doing living in Spain and buying a fancy home in Germany?

These things just ruin my day, I got like 3 letters about our bank, home, the mortgage and the payments we need to make. I am having a big pity party, not good not at all.

I dont want to have more talks with W. They are useless and make me feel like I have so many problems she is justified in leaving. Will there ever be a time when it is appropiate to test the waters and ask her out? should I better give up on that idea?

I have determined that I will post more often here. I am not detached and I need to write more here and never ever again to W. Thank you all for your comments and help!

Pack

[Pack_19]

hi all!

Just a couple of reflections I need to speak out and I feel here is the place.

This morning I was reading bits of my last interactions with W via whatsapp. Aside from noticing how pathetic I have been lately I noticed the last time there was a positive interaction was May 17. That was the famous day she said I only have to love her and there is no need to compensate the pain and she let me approach her. I have been holding onto that conversation like a life saving vest in the middle of the ocean. It has been a long time and after covid lockdown our relationship has worsened. She is fully NC unless about the kids, what you all have recommended time and time so I guess I need to finally drop that conversation as something strange that happened but means nothing and move on.

Yesterday night W video called S6 from a bar, she is always out as you can imagine when not with the kids, she asked him many times if S6 missed her. S6 replied consistently that he does not so much and that he has a better time with me. I dont see this as a fight for their love, it just made me incredibly proud and gave me a bit of positive reinforcement that I am indeed changing (I was very nervous at home and time to time I would tell him off in very impatient or aggressive manners) for the better. So she went on to ask him many times if he was joking or meant it. S6 kept replying he wants to be with me and W ended up saying he just made her really sad over and over. I was hearing while cooking and I felt like shouting quit manipulating S6 as well please. Am I being unreasonable?

The worst about this is that I am sure she thinks I put ideas in S6 heads that he is better with me, that is what hurts the most. Because you know I am the enemy. I know I show here a lot of attachment to W and focus on her but when I do gain clarity I am focused on 3 things. My personal growth, being the best father I can be and my goals in the PIES. We have fun playing lego, spyro on the ps4, swimming, playing at the beach, with the bike... not that I need to explain or justify it to you, just my personal reflections.

Why am I jealous of the many times she is out at the bars? I had a chat with a good friend yesterday, he told em if I want a chance at either getting W back or overcoming she moving on from me I need to get emotionally stronger. Sports, my job and time with friends.

I have been thinking about the message I got from the way of the superior man. We must have a goal and purpose above our R. What is mine? My dream was to work in Formula 1, that is not feasible now given the situation with the kids, what defines me then? Is being a great father enough to make you the man you want to be? not sure it is. I have a lot of thinking to do from Pack's shoes. I hope my IC helps me with that. I have been feeling like I lost the best thing I had in my life, maybe not a healthy thought.

I want to change some furniture. Specially the main room, it is just too much. We bought all when she moved in with me to the UK, it is cheap Ikea stuff and it just makes me think. I dont want to be in a house that makes me think about W. I will change the entire master bedroom, some bits in the living room and then go full saving mode for the car I want to buy. I have started to plan activities for this weekend as it will be the first one without C for the month of August.

Hope everyone is doing great. Time passes, no news from WAW, as normal. I need to become the man I want to be and build an amazing life.