bttrfly, your post meant so much to me last night. I couldn't sleep, and there it was. I know you are going through stress yourself right now, and I am just so grateful for your taking the time to share your wisdom here with me. I haven't even replied to your previous post yet, but one of the things that was running through my head last night was I'm sorry/Please forgive me/I love you/I thank you.There is much to for me to think about, both in that post and your last one, and I have some questions re: fierce compassion, but I only managed three hours of sleep last night and I will reply more soon. I hope you found some peace last night, since you were awake too.
may, thank you for your support! H is really a duck sometimes, isn't he? I was reading your thread last night and also thinking, well, focusing on my story partly involves consequences for H now. What does that look like in my situation? I was thinking about what scout just posted on your thread re: consequences as reality and not punishment. I guess, here, consequences mean his moving out and supporting me to the full extent of the law. I know I'm not in a good place, because I do want there to be more consequences, such as huge regrets on his part and a disastrous R with OW.
(Side note: Do D agreements sometimes stipulate the higher-earning party also supports by paying for health insurance? I think you mentioned something like that, bttrfly. That would take a load off my mind, but I don't know if getting the best support payment I could would mean H couldn't manage more for health insurance too. I looked into the open market options here, and of course I wouldn't have enough income to pay for it, but with support payments would make just enough that I wouldn't qualify for assistance.)
I couldn't sleep, in part because all of that internalized rage kept cycling through my head and my heart. I'm hoping if I write it out here, I'll be able to get more sleep before work. I kept thinking of things I could have said to H when he said I haven't been communicating and that he doesn't remember a lot from the last year because it's been "stupid", from really sarcastic, ill-advised stuff (Has this year been stupid for you? I get that--I lost my husband and best friend in one night, and didn't self-medicate to block it out, so I remember everything, etc etc), to calmly stating things like, I'm not sure what I am supposed to have been communicating with you about in the last year. Could you explain? I told you my perspective early on, which was that I preferred to work on the M, but that you were free to act on D. When I did try to open up lines of communication, you were more likely to ignore me or yell at me. Communication works both ways: You chose to confide in others and not me when you were unhappy and considering divorce, and then, at BD, you put up an even taller wall between us. If you are pursuing divorce, it has been up to you to communicate these decisions to me when necessary.
I also cycled through things I'd like to say to his mom, who I still miss, when this is all over. I know I need to let this go, but now I have an idea of what he's been telling her--that he doesn't know what's up with me, but I never talk to him, he's trying to be nice through this process, but I'm not communicating--I am enraged all over again. I just want her to know I loved her son and could not have seen BD coming, despite what he might say. Many people close to us have told me that they absolutely saw love in the way he touched me and talked about me when we were together, and that he may have convinced himself it was never there or that there are no good memories, but that what they saw couldn't have been faked. I should trust that MIL recognized this love too, but... I am still wanting some kind of closure with her.
Wanting to respond in some way is tearing me up inside. I'm hoping I can meet with IC in the next few days, and that will help me get some of this out, because it doesn't feel healthy to hold it all in.
Taking a wee break at work and seeing how you are doing.
When talking to H, it’s not so much holding it in as realizing the futility and determent of heated explaining or arguments. That is said first and foremost with you and your healing in mind. Any possible future relationship is down the road and is a bonus NOT the goal. You are still the most important person in this.
Let out your feelings appropriately. It is important. As is holding them back at certain times. It’s a balance. And you know feelings change. Don’t make decisions or act based solely or mostly upon feelings. Look to your values.
Something more specific for you. When talking to H - “I’m sorry you feel that way”.
Listen and validate. Do not engage or attempt to make him see reason. Why?
H is looking for a fight, a scapegoat. Don’t give it to him.
If you explain your side, and I know it’s correct by the way, H will use it against you. “See you never listen to me. That’s why we will never work out.” And so on. Besides MLCers have the attention span of a gnat, got to keep it short and simple.
I’m sorry you feel that way. This does a few things.
It is the truth. You are sorry he feels like he does.
It does sound a bit belittling, however realize all the understanding and compassion that those six words contain. You speak that from a place of compassion and truth not of flippancy.
Those six words acknowledge and yet take no blame nor do they place blame. (Very important) When/if H attacks say the statement and stick to your healthy boundaries.
Sometime you might want to add, just one time only (for you), how it’s his divorce. As an example: H - It’s so unfair how much I am going to lose in this divorce. C - I’m sorry you feel that way, but this is your divorce.
You don’t need to say more, he knows.
D
Last edited by DnJ; 07/16/2004:02 PM.
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I would get a four subject notebook: section one: questions for your lawyer
section two: Thoughts about what you want and what you will need to make that happen. Cross reference any questions back to section one with post it notes/color coordinated if that helps. You can categorize the colors: health insurance, alimony, house stuff, retirement, social security, etc.
section three: a thorough and honest examination of your core values and beliefs, and how you want to feel when you look back on this chapter of your life. It is important to remember it is only a chapter in a much larger book.
section four: your dreams for the future
I was able to sleep from 3:30-5 then son was at it again. I was grateful to work on a major project in my yard to decompress.
I think i'm channeling this stuff, Cardinal, cuz it has that feel to it as I'm typing. Hope it helps. xoxoxo
PS the one that always kicks my @$$ without fail is "thank you for the lessons" are you fing kidding me? some of these lessons are brutal. ready for the lessons that I can get an easy A in ... anytime now, please.
Last edited by bttrfly; 07/16/2006:47 PM.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
pps it's been 4-5 years since my mediation, and health insurance was a hot topic with no standard 'typical' way of handling that at that time. I'd ask a lawyer and def. negotiate that.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Second what D says. Also - don't fall down the rabbit hole of thinking if only I had done this or that, he wouldn't be divorcing me. Most of the time we have little or no control over their actions - they are rewriting history and gnawing their leg off to get out of the "trap" (to escape their depression and/or other problems) and the temporary high he gets from his new infatuation will not be a permanent fix to his problems.
The income cap for an ACA subsidy is just over $49,000. I don't know what the divorce laws are like re: health insurance (and I think he might not be able to keep you on his employer-supplied insurance once you're officially divorced) but he does have to keep you on his insurance until then and that should be part of the order for temporary support from your lawyer.
I don't remember what your situation is re: debts and property.
As I remember, weren't you renting and not a lot of assets? What's the debt situation? What's the feasibility of getting a job that comes with health insurance? Are you a full ten years married yet? (You want to make sure it's the full ten because that qualifies you to get social security based on his spousal benefits if they are higher than your own).
D, thank you for checking in on me. Yes, you're right--I have to remember the absolute futility of trying to make him see logic or anything other than what he is seeing and feeling right now. I'm having trouble accepting that even if I don't try to explain my side, he will find things to use against me anyway. Ex: I'm not communicating with him, or, see, I'm emotionless and that was always the problem. Like you said above, and like OwnIt told me early on, nothing I do will be right. I am d*mned if I do and d*mned if I don't. Again, my brain struggles to make sense of persistent questions: How can this person with whom I built a life suddenly think so little of me? Or maybe it's my heart that continues to struggle because my brain understands that it's about him and his need for justification.
bttrfly: notebook ordered to pick up later today. I really like your idea of different sections. I think I am a little nervous about maintaining a balance between trying to get a deal while H is in a good mood (though he already seemed a bit moodier this morning, so maybe that intention is beside the point) and knowing I can take the time I need to think about things at each step. I very much like the idea of working on my core values and being able to refer back to them in the same notebook whenever I need to. I keep coming back to fierce compassion, because I think the compassion needs strength, needs to be a compassion that refuses to be messed with, especially when it comes to fierce self-compassion. I will need to draw on that again and again when I doubt myself or get drawn into seeing myself the way H sees me right now. How do you understand the fierce component for yourself? And I totally understand if you don't have the energy right now to meditate on something like that here. Your words have already been so helpful to me. I am so sorry for the heartache you are going through with your son right now. I'm glad the yard project was there for you. I couldn't go back to sleep this morning, so I did what I do every morning, which is tend to things outside. I fed the cat and found the first dinnerplate dahlia I have grown waiting for me, petals almost shimmering in the early light.
kml: Thank you for reminding me not to fall down the rabbit hole. I have been falling back down the SSM rabbit hole and blaming myself as I try not to think of H with OW, and I know that is not helpful. I keep telling myself she is not going to magically fix his issues, even if it seems that way to him, or even from the outside for a while. I could see him again spending years in an R and then one day deciding he's not happy because he's staked his identity on that person, or spent all of his energy taking care of her and not himself. I know that too is not my problem. In a way, I feel like I've finally joined the club here, with the slightly delayed arrival of OW!
No property, no credit card debt for me, credit card debt for H (we don't have shared credit cards and so can't see each other's balances or records), and no shared debt in loans or anything. We were married 10 years in November, and the L I talked to in the past seemed to think the official date of separation could be something that would need to be nailed down. H expressed his official intention to file after the anniversary date, so I don't know if that'll be an issue for us or not. It is good to know I should ask in next consult about social security based on his benefits; the last L also said I would be entitled to a portion of his pension since we were married for 10 years.
I continue to look for and apply for jobs that would include health insurance as they come up. Everyone tells me that I need to have faith that the right job will come along. I'm trying to. As for the ACA subsidy, that's good to know too. I was looking at our state's ACA marketplace options, and they had a table showing income caps for premium assistance—it was something like 25k, which I would be over by a bit, especially because that was before taxes. Maybe that was for additional premium assistance. The quoted costs for middle of the road plans was something like 300-500 a month. I'll need to look into that again.
I so appreciate all of you checking in here and offering advice! I am bone-tired and overwhelmed, alternating between angry and too tired to be angry or sad, and it is some comfort to know you all have been through this.
And, job, thank you also! I missed your post the first time because I was typing a reply. I fully expect him to think of an agreement as, Here is my agreement for you, and to get mad if I question anything or ask for something I know I am entitled to. I am going to need to find some additional strength to get through this part. I need everyone to keep reminding me not to let him mess with my mind! I am so tired after a year of keeping up PMA, taking care of the house and pets (which means I can't imagine how exhausted those of you with kids are!), looking for jobs, etc. and I also think the stress of living with an unpredictable, strange roommate is just catching up with me, so my defenses aren't as sharp as they could be. I am not feeling as strong as I'd like to feel. Hopefully I will get some sleep and some of that strength will return.
The deal with social security is, that as long as you were married for 10 years, when the time comes to collect social security, you can choose whichever is the larger - SS based on your own earnings, or spousal SS (which is 50% of the his benefit or 75% if he's died). Also, if you were married for ten years, if he dies, you can collect a widow's benefit at age 60. So it's valuable to make sure you were married for ten years.
(My friend is widowed, and her husband was married twice before her. This doesn't affect her benefit - she and both previous wives - who were also married to him for ten years - all collect social security widows benefits based on his earnings. It's not reduced even if he marries again.)
Things you will want to ask the lawyer about: 1) His credit card debt. If this was mutual debt (used to buy things for both of you during the marriage) he might be able to hold you to paying half of it. If it's all debt that he incurred after you "split", or that he spent on OW, or you paid off a similar amount of "joint " debt on your card but he neglected to do so on yours, then you have a good case for him being responsible for all of that debt. The fact that you have separate cards would work in your favor I would think.
2) Alimony - usually for half the duration of the marriage, assuming there is a disparity between your income and his. This would be 5 years in your case. If you usually make as much as he does but are just temporarily unemployed this might be different. 3) Things to consider with the alimony: If he dies before it's all paid, how are you protected? I carried (and paid for) a life insurance policy on my ex during the years he paid me alimony.
Consider a lump sum settlement. I actually wish I had been able to get a lump sum instead of the 10 years of alimony that I got, because with every check ex sent me he got more and more resentful and stuck me with every extra expense for our adult children just to get back at me (and ruined his relationships with the kids in the process). A lump sum is usually a bit less than what the total alimony would be (because it assumes you can invest and grow that money over the 5 years). That could make if attractive to him as it looks like less, but it also requires him to come up with a lump sum which he might not be able to do.Lump sum removes uncertainty (if he dies after you still have your money, and you don't have to worry abut late checks etc.). Lump sum might also allow you to make different choices about your future.
Tax consequences of alimony. The tax laws in the US have changed. Alimony is now taxable to him and not taxable income to you. Neither of you pay taxes on a lump sum distribution. Here's a simple mathematical model of how this might work out: Let's say you receive alimony of 1,000 a month for five years. If his top tax bracket is 20%, he has to earn $1,250 to pay you that $1,000 (he pays the remaining $250 in taxes. You pay no taxes on that $1,000. If, on the other hand, you negotiate a lump sum settlement: $1,000/mo x 5 years = $60,000. But remember, you can invest that money, so usually the lump sum is discounted. Let's say the assumption is that you could earn 4% above inflation by investing that money, the lump sum would be discounted to $50,000 but in five years you would have $60,000 if you left that invested. It might sound like taking the $1,000 a month payments would be better for you, especially since you have to use some of that money for living expenses. However, would having the lump sum enable you to make some other changes that would be useful? Down payment on a condo that would reduce your living expenses? Enable you to fund training or a vehicle that would allow you to earn more money? Even if he gives you $60,000 lump sum, he saves $15,000 in taxes (but loses maybe $5,000 in potential investment earnings).
Another alternative is to negotiate a bigger part of his retirement. If he can't come up with the cash but will give you an extra $50 or $60 K of his IRA or 401K, it doesn't help you in the short term but may set you up for a better retirement. (although there are ways to take money out of an ira before age 59 1/2 without tax penalty, it's complicated).
Otherwise, you just split those 50:50 and transfer yours into your own IRA to avoid tax consequences now.
If he has an actual pension, usually you really want to hold onto your share (which is divided by a procedure called QDRO, which will calculate how much was earned during the years you were married and split that in half roughly). It's better if it's the type that increases with inflation. My ex's does not so even though the initial benefit I get is generous, it decreases in value over time due to inflation. Usually you're better off if you hold onto your QDRO share rather than let him buy you out of the pension; as women often haven't built up enough retirement savings themselves.
kml—this primer you've shared is very helpful! Thank you. I started feeling overwhelmed as I was thinking through all of it, but now I have a clearer idea of what I for sure need to discuss in more detail with the L and why, and that's what Ls are for, right? To help guide you in things like this. H's income is about 3x mine in normal circumstances.
D—yep, and I think that's why my heart wants to resist what's in front of me right now. Can't compute how what's on the inside has changed so drastically. It has started to sink in slowly over the past year, which is I guess a benefit of having had that time. I can look back and see how different he's become. There's no denying that on my end, but there was still the tiniest wish he would start moving in the other direction. I swear I could already detect a little moodiness in him today after he's been so cheerful and friendly this week. If I have learned anything living with him in the past year, it's that his anger might seem to lift, but it's always only temporary. He returns to it, and chooses a new thing to help him run.
So:I believe that if I love H I should let him go and that I should want him to be happy; I even told him I wanted him to be happy. Right now though? I don't feel that way. Right now I want his R to fail and I want him to have to face himself and realize all his patterns will repeat, because he hasn't worked through them or taken responsibility for them. Of course I want him to realize that I'm not 100% to blame for the M or his unhappiness. Is it still following your beliefs if you are feeling exactly the opposite? It seems a little disingenuous when I am feeling much less generous and much more angry internally, but can still say, H, I want you to be happy. I'm also feeling like I could never fully forgive him or trust him again. But since I know feelings do change, I am trying to leave my future self the option of being open to what else could happen with H. I'm trying not to say or do anything right now I would regret later. I am hoping that eventually my feelings will align more with my beliefs.
I'm going to post this little quote I saved from Cadet, because I need it right now:
Originally Posted by Cadet
This is actually forward movement in the tunnel as much as you may not like it.
The MLC'er needs to believe that the marriage is totally destroyed to progress in REPLAY.
So yes it would be better to embrace this rather than fight it. I am not saying to not see a lawyer. Most definitely go see one ASAP Protect yourself as best as you can cause the saying that things might get worse before they get better is always an axiom.
Yes you are going to be in PAIN, that is part of his fuel so he can keep moving and thinking that ESCAPE and AVOID is going to save him. It wont. But he must learn this on his own
Yes, you're right--I have to remember the absolute futility of trying to make him see logic or anything other than what he is seeing and feeling right now. I'm having trouble accepting that even if I don't try to explain my side, he will find things to use against me anyway. Ex: I'm not communicating with him, or, see, I'm emotionless and that was always the problem. Like you said above, and like OwnIt told me early on, nothing I do will be right. I am d*mned if I do and d*mned if I don't. Again, my brain struggles to make sense of persistent questions: How can this person with whom I built a life suddenly think so little of me? Or maybe it's my heart that continues to struggle because my brain understands that it's about him and his need for justification.