One... omfg, I am continually blown away by how similar our Hs are on all of this. Much of what your H has said to you about the reasons why he strayed sounds like word-for-word things my H has said to me. None of it is him taking responsibility for his own actions. All just justifications to let himself off the hook for the affair. I hope you can recognize that and aren't trying to internalize all of this. I know it really helped me when I realized that my H was just following the exact same script as all these other WAHs.
Thank you so much, May, I needed to hear this right now. I have my moments of self-doubt and sadness and feeling so alone.
Originally Posted by may22
On the EA vs the PA. I have to say, if there has been any opportunity for this to be a PA, if I were you I'd assume that was the case. I'm not trying to mindread here, but I do think that having crossed that line might be part of the reason that he is clinging so desperately to the justifications for why you were so terrible and why he was leaving (I notice that is what he's saying, not that he's leaving because of OW). I also wonder if having that lie out there and unaddressed, and his inability to tell you, is part of the reason he got scared off of Ring. That may or may not be helpful or true, but it just really sticks with me that there are so many other similarities and my H also swore up and down it was just an EA. I know that for him having crossed that line is part of what has made him feel like he needed to commit to the A and that being "true love" because otherwise he has to look at himself as a philanderer, not just someone who fell in love accidentally after his wife demonstrated she didn't love him with the SSM.
There have been ample opportunities for it to be a PA. H has sworn up and down that it has not been that, but his actions are so extreme in the monstering/blaming/meanness that it tells me he has a HUGE amount of shame and guilt. More than one would expect for our situation. And it would make sense in terms of the back-and-forth with the Ring. I had a sneaking suspicion on all the times he came back to reconcile that OW reached out in some capacity and that threw him back. I don't know this for sure, of course. But if it were a PA, I don't think he would ever admit it. As it stands now, he can paint me as the 'controlling, resentful, mean, SSM wife who made him unhappy for years'. If his decision is due to an A, he loses all that credibility he has worked so hard to build up with the few people he is speaking to about it.
Regardless, H is not suggesting he is leaving me to be with her. She lives 1000's of miles away and I don't think he will leave our kids, although I am so shocked by his behavior, I guess anything could happen.
[quote=may22]Here's a thought for you to take or leave-- what do you think about asking your H if the OW's H is aware? And saying you're thinking about getting in touch with him? Exactly what you just said to us here-- that he's admitted he'd have worked on the M in the absence of OW, and you're really sad that another family is breaking up, and you really wish someone had told you if they'd known, and maybe they will have a chance to save their family if it isn't too late. He will probably freak out and get really mad, none of your beeswax, etc. But if you do end up telling him you didn't do it behind your H's back and if you stand by it being the right thing to do, I would not want to have it be a secret. Maybe that is really bad advice and I'm not recommending it by any means, but just a thought to chew on./quote]
Interestingly enough (not surprising because you and I think a lot alike), this is exactly what I did prior to your post! Almost verbatim. He freaked out, but more in a 'holy sh!t' sort of way, that this could really blow up in his face. We left the conversation unfinished, which is good because I don't know what I am going to do. I plan to sit with this all for a while.
So let me say this about dropping this bomb on someone else, this is simply my experience you can take it as you'd like.
I refused to go out of my way to speak with OW's bf. Very early on when some of my support system wanted me to blow it all up and let the chips fall where they may I sat down and gave it a lot of thought and decided to keep it to myself. I very easily could've done it any time I wanted. I could do it now if I really wanted to. I know him. I know OW. I know people they know. I know OW's whole extended family. I know where both of them work. And I know people with whom they work with. I know where they live. I had the power at any moment to ruin OWs life and to get H punched in the face or beaten within inches of his life depending on when and how I caught OW's bf. But I passed. I in fact didn't even let H know that I had the ability to reach out to OW's bf any time I wanted. I did however text OW when it was still an EA and asked her how her bf feels about all the time she's spending with my husband and the fact that she texts and calls him all day, every day, at all hours. She absolutely lost it and said she'd back off. She did for like 2 weeks. But by that time I decided I wasn't going to interfere with the relationship any more than I already had. That I would let it happen as far as the two of them were willing to take it because I knew from the get go, she'd never start over with my H. I knew H was just an outlet for her. Which before my DB-ing days I screamed at him from the parking lot of the mall he and her were at embarrassing my children and me right before Xmas. I say this so you know I'm not all zen and pan flute music over here. In this process I have definitely had my moments. I am not beyond petty, or rage, or poor emotionally influenced choices.
I don't know OW in your situation but I can say based on my time as a WW if there's a family at home. Even if it's just a man she's invested a lot of time and energy into she isn't going any where fast, if at all. You're H is an outlet. She may even say she's in love with him, but a WW brain just doesn't work the same as a WH. They get caught up but that old life is still so much more visible. That old life has so much more pull. On the flip side of that they are better at hiding these things and cake eating for as long as possible because they are usually filling in emotional needs more than physical ones.
I just strongly suggest you tread lightly here. Would you really want to be responsible for someone else feeling the way you feel right now? No you aren't the one who caused the betrayal but you're the one pulling away the veil. Do you want to be the catalyst? The other side of that is do you want H knowing how low you are willing to swing? I'm all for petty. Trust me. But if there's ever going to be hope for an R you can't put more obstacles in your way. And if there's any hope for the least painful not drawn out D possible now is not the time for him to see the places you could go given the opportunity. Just think on it a bit.
I appreciate your perspective, thank you so much for sharing it.
As innocent and naive as I sound saying this, my intentions are not to blow anything up, nor to punish anyone or damage anything, or stop the affair for the sake my own M. I realize reading your post that I am guilty of my-side bias in all of this. And my side is that I would want to know and would hope that someone would tell me if they knew. Maybe I could have saved my marriage, or saved my children from a broken home? My intention was that maybe I could save another family from the same fate I am feeling like we are heading down?
But I also see how I am looking at it from only one perspective. That everyone involved would probably look at it from the perspective you wrote: vindictive wife blows sh!t up, look how low she can go.
I also appreciate your perspective from the WW point of view. Based upon what H has said in the past (and even recently), I don't get the sense that OW has any plans on leaving her H and kids. She has some extenuating circumstances that mean she could never move over to our part of the country and I don't think H will leave our kids.
There have been ample opportunities for it to be a PA. H has sworn up and down that it has not been that, but his actions are so extreme in the monstering/blaming/meanness that it tells me he has a HUGE amount of shame and guilt. More than one would expect for our situation. And it would make sense in terms of the back-and-forth with the Ring. I had a sneaking suspicion on all the times he came back to reconcile that OW reached out in some capacity and that threw him back. I don't know this for sure, of course. But if it were a PA, I don't think he would ever admit it. As it stands now, he can paint me as the 'controlling, resentful, mean, SSM wife who made him unhappy for years'. If his decision is due to an A, he loses all that credibility he has worked so hard to build up with the few people he is speaking to about it.
FWIW (and since my H has been so talky talky about all of this)-- he said he didn't tell me because he was scared. Really, really scared. I had that same 1% thought in my mind in the fall, when he was still saying EA only, but dismissed it because all he had to do was tell me it was a PA and I was outta there, and since he was saying with his mouth he wanted out, why would he not just tell me? And I also thought, maybe he isn't saying it because he doesn't want me to walk. I think that was definitely part of it-- at least what he's told me-- but also scared of the consequences, scared of other people finding out, scared to have to own that he was a cheater. He told me the other day when he embarked on this A, he really didn't care or think about how I would feel. He only was thinking about what he wanted. And that he thought to himself, OK, if this ends up being something, I'll just get a divorce. And that was two and a half years ago. He said, clearly this is all just so much more complicated than he thought back then-- his feelings for me, the children, the life we've built together, his own self-image--all waaay harder than he frivolously thought when he took that first fateful step.
I read in one of the books the other day (I think Glass but maybe Perel) how hard it is for the H and W to face each other after the A-- one line struck me-- he looks in her eyes and sees his fallen image. I think this is real. I'm sure your H is sticking like glue to that controlling, resentful, mean, frigid W narrative because it is the only one in which he can be at all OK with himself and his own behavior. But, deep down, he knows the truth.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I really resonate with the quote about seeing a fallen image of himself in my eyes. I watch him struggle with this-- wanting to be mean and snap at me/push me away one moment and then lovingly questioning if I am OK as he sees that I am struggling today. Some days he slips and calls me 'babe' and is super friendly and loving and other days he goes to bed downstairs without even saying goodnight. I am on a daily rollercoaster and my stupid hope and forgiving nature allows me to naively jump back on every time.
Sadly, the kids and our 'intact family future' keep pulling me back in more than is probably healthy for me. I am desperate to give my children the upbringing I had (intact family with parents who adored each other). I know this may be beyond my control, but I can't help but question his current mental state considering what we had over the past 13 years. Does someone really 'flip' seemingly overnight? NO ONE in our life saw this coming, me least of all. I am either a blind fool, or H is going through a crisis that he may or may not recover from.
I am sad to say that I am looking forward to him moving out in a couple weeks. The daily reminder that I am unloveable to him is almost killing me. I am sick of crying every day (not in H's presence), I am heartbroken to hear my kids talk about future travel or life experiences that we will not have (D1 mentioned today that she wants to live next to us when she gets older so we can help take care of her hypothetical twin girls... that H will be such a good granddad and I will be the best Nana ever). I wish I was stronger and more resolved by this point, but I am just not. This is the hardest thing I have ever gone through and I am clinging to the hope that this is the worst of it and when he moves out I can move on, detach completely and be my best mom self.
Thanks for your post on my thread. I know so much how you feel and my heart is aching for you (and me and all of us in these awful situations... but I just want you to know that I see you, I feel you, I am here with you.)
If I could possibly share one of your recommendation with me back at you... is it possible for you to try as best you can to stay in the moment and practice mindfulness? I know it is soooooo hard do to this. I am horrible at it. But, I just can't imagine it is serving you right now to think about your daughter's potential disappointment in 20 years of not having her parents together to take care of her own children. (Also, a lot can change between now and then, just saying.)
I can empathize so much with you in all of this. I also want my children to have the intact family that I had and H had. But much of that is simply not within your control right now. It is all to easy to spin when there is so much happening and it feels all out of your control. But... can you suss out what IS in your control, right now, today? Is it saying "not now" to those thoughts when they invade and save them for another time? Is it focusing on the small ways of being present with your children and listening with all your attention for a bit? Is it some small element of self-care or a call with a friend? Any ways you can find the space that YOU control and honor it, be grateful for it, and make the adjustments you can within that space to support yourself seems like it could be so, so helpful for you right now.
In/re him MO... I don't think you should be sorry you're looking forward to that. Besides not crying every day in his presence, what are the other positive things you can take from his absence? I spent a lot of time building up all the changes I would make to the house once H was gone and they are still very attractive to me... also after BD I went out and bought all new bedding for MY bed (even though he was still sleeping there at the time) but it was meaningful to me and I still really love my new comforter. Are there things like that you can plan for?
Also, hoping you can release some of the anxiety because I remember you saying before you weren't scared of him leaving because you guys had already been S... what is different now for you? The lease? Remember that this is all a process and if you guys are meant to be, another S isn't going to tank your chances for R. In fact, if you read the advice on my thread, folks are pretty explicit that Sing is probably the single fastest and most effective way of setting yourself up for R success. Let him go, focus on you, let him experience life without you there.
From the outside, I feel a little like the last S was maybe not set up for him at least to really feel the loss of you as his W, since he just got to dip in and be in the house without you there, which probably wasn't all that much different from being away when he traveled for work. Make this one real, if you can, for him. Don't spend time and energy on a soft landing for him. Focus on being the best Sage and best mom you can be, and let him fail out there on his own in the real world. He will, you know. Pommy's sitch seems very similar to yours in my mind and it wasn't till she really let him go and he understood he might really lose her that he flipped back. Your H has that possibility right there, I think. He did it that one time but maybe it was too easy for him to get you back.
And finally, don't beat yourself up for not being the queen of detachment. This is hard stuff. You WILL get through it, though. I have no doubt.
(((SAGE)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Last night H and I told the children that he is moving out and we are slowly moving towards divorce. The conversation was the hardest one I have ever had in my life and it went poorly (we had agreed to stick to the facts: H is moving out, the kids will split time between the homes, divorce is likely happening... any questions kiddos?). Instead H told the kids 'mummy and daddy have decided... mummy and daddy think this is best... mummy and daddy etc'. We had previously discussed not using this tactic because the kids know that H wants out, but that I do not. And I refuse to lie or be inauthentic with them (although I am dedicated to only giving the information they need, would never throw him under the bus, and am a pretty great mom in the emotional intelligence department). H also shut down a question from the kids about me getting a job (work to them means leaving for extended periods of time like he does and of course they are worried about it). He snapped at our S 'it's my job to take care of mummy' after which, no one wanted to ask anymore questions. Can I just say that his response is demeaning to me and untrue in the long-term?
A couple of days ago, we had a talk about how I am the cause of all of this and the whole '13 years of misery' schtick. I lost my ability to validate his cr*p and told him how deeply, deeply, deeply he had hurt me with his affair, how disappointed I was that he chose to lean out of the marriage instead of leaning in and how I couldn't move forward into friend zone like he wants because I hadn't had a whiff of him owning his side of the street/50% of the marriage. He stood up for himself, made excuses (that placed it all back on me) and basically left me feeling worse than I was before the conversation.
H takes everything personally, whether it is from me or the kids. His ego-driven emotions (shame, guilt, etc) overwhelm him and render him unable to empathize or see anything beyond his own pain. I keep trying to repeat the mantra 'I didn't break him, can't fix him' over and over. My nature is to try and improve myself, reflect, change, become a better version, so when someone blames me for things, I want to address it. But the load has become unbearable and I don't see how I can change anymore without losing the essence of who I am.
I am not sure if I should continue to stand for our M, or just throw in the towel already.
Needing 'you'll be OK no matter what' today, but not able to supply it myself at the moment...
Even I went through phases of this. A lot of vets around here suggest "I'm sorry you feel that way," for that kind of vitriol being thrown in your direction. Some suggest truth darts here and there. I think you asking him for ownership of 50%of the failure of the MR is a hill you can be willing to die on. Pick a line in the sand here. You don't need to validate every single thing ever to be DBing.
I just want you to know what he's saying is what he is feeling. Doesn't make it true. And while you can see that, he can't. He genuinely doesn't have the ability to see past his defense mechanisms and may I suggest if you can't give H some understanding here you approach his hot mess self with pity. It's patronizing. Probably just as much as saying "I'm sorry you feel that way," but at least it puts you in the right head space.
You will be ok no matter what. And if you want to stand, stand. If you don't, you go right ahead and throw in the towel. And if you want to fence sit for a bit to see how this separation plays out you're welcome to that too.
(((Sage))) Just popping into newcomers when all I can handle usually is MLC and wanted to offer you a hug. I've mostly kept up with your threads. It sounds like you handled a really, really rough situation so well, even though telling your kids did not go planned. I'm so sorry. You, though, displayed incredible grace, and kept the focus on your kids and not your H's less than honorable behavior.
Originally Posted by Sage4
A couple of days ago, we had a talk about how I am the cause of all of this and the whole '13 years of misery' schtick. I lost my ability to validate his cr*p and told him how deeply, deeply, deeply he had hurt me with his affair, how disappointed I was that he chose to lean out of the marriage instead of leaning in and how I couldn't move forward into friend zone like he wants because I hadn't had a whiff of him owning his side of the street/50% of the marriage. He stood up for himself, made excuses (that placed it all back on me) and basically left me feeling worse than I was before the conversation.
Can I just say I recently went through pretty much the same convo with my H, and also left it feeling worse than I was before? Ugh. You are able to stand back and see where his behavior is coming from, though. I'm totally on the same page as you--wanting to address/repair/grow when someone (especially someone I care about!) blames me for things. But you can only do so much of this if your H isn't willing right now to do the same, right? You recognize this, and you know what is best for you. You are not resistant to change or accepting responsibility; you are just not willing to bend yourself into shapes just because someone else demands it, nor are you going to take on more than your share of responsibility. You know yourself. You will be okay.
As for standing or throwing in the towel, maybe you don't have to decide at this moment, or maybe you can change how you feel about it from week to week, just observe where your feelings go for a while, and that is okay. Either way, it sounds like you are living with your and your children's best interests in mind, and isn't that the most important piece?
Hi Sage, I’m so sorry you are going through this. I really do feel your pain, I have been there. You don’t have to make any decisions about D right now. Settle yourself, focus on you and your children and not H or the M. I do really see so many similarities between our Hs - I’m leaving / I’m staying / I love you / I’m leaving blah blah . I do think your H is confused and sorry to say that this has to happen for there to be any hope of repair. He doesn’t know what he wants - 4 weeks ago he wanted to recommit, now he says it’s over. He is in a world of pain and confusion. You are strong enough to deal with this, you will recover - with or without him. I would just drop the rope as much as possible. Don’t think about D because you may not be thinking rationally right now, and he certainly isn’t. You got this Sage {{{hugs}}}
M:49 H:49 T:20 M:18 D:16 D:14
EA: Feb 2019-May 2020 Separated: Mar-early Aug 2020 H asked to reconcile: Jun 2020 EA relapse: Oct/Nov 2020 Recon #2: since Nov 2020
