Trying to Detach

[AlisonUK]

I did say I wanted to go on the trip *if* I felt confident that things were totally over with her forever.

Okay. Well, I think realistically there's absolutely nothing he can do in the next two weeks that is going to make that happen for you. I'd be surprised, to be honest, even if he put in 100% of commitment right now if you were able to feel like that after a year or two.

Piecing is long difficult work, involves risk, and your confidence in his honesty is not going to return for years, if ever.

He told me today he spoke to her this morning and told her he wants to cut it off and work on the M.

He's said that to her before, apparently. And he had to have sex with her and lie to you about it in order to do his proper goodbye. I wonder how many of these episodes he's going to need?

Knowing that his words and actions mean pretty much nothing, and knowing that you're not ready to get the lawyers in, knowing that you've already been clear with him about your boundaries, knowing that if there is to be a D you want your H to instigate it so he can be the bad guy, and knowing that when you indulge his need for attention and drama you are rewarding the status quo, what is your plan of action?

I think your H has behaved absolutely atrociously and continues to do so - but I don't think you're his victim anymore, I think you've really elegantly devised a scenario where you will spin around in this game with him for months if not years and be able to hold him responsible for it.

I am so sorry to be hard here: I say it bluntly because I cannot believe this current situation is good for your heart and I want you to see that you could get out of it the second you choose to. You don't have to divorce him. You don't have to leave the house, even. But you could let your no be your no and refuse to give his drama any more oxygen. Why don't you? Do you know?

[may22]

Hi Scout, I know it maybe doesn't come through here but I am waaaaay better at not engaging in these conversations. What used to be long emotional dumps on me are now more like informational blips of information. Generally tbh I would prefer to know the factual stuff-- he talked to her or not, what he said, etc-- I just don't want to hear about his feelings for her. I don't give a $hit about her being sad and he knows that... he said that about her being sad, I looked at him, he said "I know you don't care" I rolled my eyes. So, although I'm not telling him to f off as soon as he opens his mouth, I definitely feel much stronger and more in control in these conversations as they're happening, and they are very truncated compared to before. So, some progress though I realize I'm not to the point where say Alison is in terms of her H. I have a long ways to go. But I still have also come a long ways from where I was.

Also, I know last time around I was in my heart more excited and hopeful when he said he was breaking it off with her and to trust him to do it his own way, blah blah blah. Even if I was trying to act detached and all that. I am definitely much further along on the detachment path this time around than I was last time. SO, again, I'm not 100% there and telling him I'm too busy to talk because I'm creating my new life without him. But, I'm not gooey inside either.

And.... he's not the prize. I know this. He has a lot of faults, beyond the cheating. Many of the beefs I had with him all these years are much improved, now, though, so I guess that is a good thing no matter what, whether for the girls or for him, for me as a co-parent or for his next partner. He is far more invested in being a good father than he was before the A as well. I think I said during the spring/lockdown when he had broken it off with her the last time and I thought we were working on the MR that if I had never known about the A, I would have been thrilled as here was the H I had been waiting for all those years. Kind, thoughtful, funny, going out of his way to do nice things, taking on far more of the household responsibilities, supportive of my career, not really bothering me for sex. So I'm coming off of that experience too and it is hard for me to erase that and not have a little part of me think "maybe this is a relapse and not a collapse" in my head, the extinction burst before he recommits. IDK. But that is there. And he is the father of my children and will always be that. I guess this is something I need to work on with my IC, why I'm willing to put up with this, why I want to try with him even in the face of all the evidence that shows he's not a committed partner on the other side.

I do think that the winning might be a buried motivator for me, one I'm not really proud of, but is there. I've been very, very fortunate in my life and I can't really point to much, if anything, that I really wanted and didn't get. Rejection is not something that sits well with me. So I am a little worried that I'm willing to mark time here long enough for her to be out of the picture just because I am motivated by not wanting that-- him swanning around with her-- vs motivated by wanting him to stay. All things I need to think through.

Alison, if I have a plan of action it is to give myself some time to figure out what it is that I want, sit with these new feelings and knowledge of my own manipulative behaviors and motivations and listen to them. I know that doesn't sound very actionable. You're probably right that I've created a trap for myself. I'm trying to mentally detach myself from the drama side and focus on me. And I do feel like I've made progress here, even if not a ton.

Scout, where am I in terms of wanting him to stay or go? I'd like to say 50-50-- I'm building paths in both directions that make sense to me. But to be candid with you guys and myself, it is probably more like 60-40 wanting him to stay. Maybe 70-30, even. Again, not sure what all motivates that-- how much of it is what *I* want vs what I think is best for my children or trying to avoid what I *don't* want. I think at least I'm being more honest with myself, right now, and spending time dealing with my anger rather than push it down. I think my anger is driving the I don't want him to ride off into the sunset with her feelings.

Alison, why can't I simply not engage at all? I don't know. I am not programmed that way. I can hold it for a few days, maybe a week, and then I just don't have the motivation any more. That being said, I am giving it way less O2 than I was a couple of weeks ago, definitely waaaay less than I did back in the fall. So, there's that.

The update I have now is that the "we can plan our trip" meant "AP has blocked me on WhatsApp and Instagram" and assuming, but he hasn't tried, text/phone/email. (Apparently when you block someone on WhatsApp their contact disappears.) He's depressed, feels like a friend has died. He wanted to come to talk to me about it. I said I'm not the right person to process this with you-- you should try your IC. So he got an extra session with her and is talking to her right now. I did tell him that her blocking him really isn't enough for me to want to reengage with him. And I know know know he is nowhere close to being in a mental state to actually want to reengage with me, if he ever is. And just because she blocked him yesterday means absolutely nothing about what happens tomorrow or a month from now or a year from now. (Though I do get a petty enjoyable little snicker out of a week ago her telling him "I'll wait for you forever" and then a week later guess that wasn't the case, was it. See, not sure how much of my motivation is here vs. really wanting him. Someone took my toy. It was MINE and I want it back, thank you very much... I know he thinks this about me. I don't think that is a large percentage of my motivation, but I also don't think it is zero percent.)

Anyway. So nothing has really changed. He feels very sorry for himself. He isn't taking responsibility for his actions. He is telling himself he's giving up this big thing and his chance at spending his life with someone who truly loves him and only wants to make him happy for the children because I would selfishly make his life and the children's lives miserable if he left me. All reasons I should kick his cheating, lying, @ss to the curb. And yet. I'm just not there.

[may22]

Journaling.

Seems like many of us are sad, today. I am too. I feel like I'm the last one left standing in some children's game, holding the bag, and looking inside to see there is nothing there that I want. I don't *want* a half-@ssed H pretending to "try" for the sake of the children. I don't want to be in this same place a few months from now again. I only want to engage if he's going to engage too, wholly. And he simply isn't there and I have no idea if he ever will be. And yet I am still not able to be the one to walk.

I've been thinking what if I approached him really calmly and simply said, if you want a D, you can have one. I promise to be a good co-parent. Would that be enough? I can't/won't promise to be friends so I won't say that. I don't think I've ever been the one to bring it up-- I've only said you are free to go in the context of a conversation in response to him-- but I also know he doesn't believe I really mean it when I say it, and/or he believes my non-friendship "threat" would be so damaging to the children he won't call my bluff on that one. Anyway. I thought about this a lot in the middle of the night last night when I couldn't sleep. I almost thought I could do it. But in the light of day, not so much. I think I have so much fear and anger centered around him running off into the sunset with AP and the idea of her ever meeting my children, or him having a baby with her. I really, really don't want that to happen. Again, not sure exactly what is driving that, but it is a big blocker for me.

He's back in charm mode. After his call with IC yesterday he sat down and asked if we could just have a nice night together. I didn't really respond as I wasn't feeling it. He clowned around until I laughed. We watched a movie with the kids, ate dinner, a neighbor stopped by and we sat outside and chatted. This morning, he let me sleep in and cooked a beautiful big breakfast. Tonight he is all excited about the trip, came to tell me some things just fell into place with the lodgings (I think I mentioned before, he has booked all these hotels he knows I'll like. Including one I have wanted to stay at for years and years and is usually really expensive and hard to book but now has space and incredibly cheap rates.) I heard him on the phone "me, my wife, and our two children" booking something... and feel just anger and sadness and all the rest at hearing him say those words with such normalcy when he's blown everything up.

And, of course I want to go on this GD trip. It was my idea. Now it has all the places I want to stay. (Yes, I see the manipulation there.) And yet I just made a list of what would need to happen in order for me to want to go-- Alison, accepting that nothing could possibly happen to make me feel secure she is out of our lives forever, but blocking her number and email and deleting the WhatsApp app on his phone would be good starts, at least for the next month. I mean, we're still sleeping in the same bed here at home and playing happy family, so what's the difference in traveling? The main reason I didn't want to go was that I didn't want to be worried he was still in touch with her and felt like that low level anxiety would significantly detract from my enjoyment of the trip. And then yes, I used the excuse of the trip to make an arbitrary deadline. If that worry was removed for me with blocking her contacts and transparency with his phone, I think I would relax and be able to enjoy exploring these fun places with my kids, even if H were there. IDK. Nothing is set in stone at this point and if we waste some money and don't go or we switch off with the kids, that is an OK option as well.

Reposting from Wooba's thread:

may - I thought about you today. Your H also seems to be acting friendly and being a good father and all that - might be a good time to D now while he is confused and feeling extremely guilty, than to wait until he decided to act differently. Not that he will, but there is always a possibility. just my 2 cents.

I've been thinking the same thing about the leverage I have in moving now on D vs later. However, I also think that at least with my H, the likelihood (especially if I was at all contentious, got Ls involved, etc) is that the "deal" we've been talking about where I get the house and primary physical custody, was always too good to be true and it wouldn't end up that way once we got down to brass tacks. That is one of the reasons i've been thinking about a more informal post-nup to get things in writing now. My biggest thing is time with the kids, but I also know that custody arrangements can be altered at any time, so even if he is OK with this arrangement now, it is likely to change in the future. And I honestly can't imagine him being OK with less time with the kids when he comes to his senses. he's just saying this now out of guilt.

I've been thinking about this a lot... am I just setting myself up for a worse outcome a few months or a year down the road? Where this limbo just keeps going until I finally say enough, and H is no longer guilt-ridden and AP has moved on and he's angry and vindictive? I'm worried about this. Is my stubbornness about wanting to know I tried everything setting myself up for a worse outcome, only delaying the inevitable in terms of my R with H but also will he then blame me for losing AP too? (yes. the answer to that is yes.)

So, is there any realistic likelihood of me getting exactly what I would want in a D now? As I said in Wooba's thread, I don't really think so in terms of the children, which is my highest priority. Maybe in terms of the house. I do think I could get the house if we D now and maybe that wouldn't be the case down the line. In terms of the financial arrangement, I really don't know if I could actually get in a D what I would ask for in an S agreement. The second L said she thought a post-nup would be a good idea even if we decided to work on our R... maybe that is something I should pursue regardless.

Anyway, this line of thought has me thinking about what I'm risking in terms of continuing this limbo state. To date, I hadn't thought I was risking much except for time and the ability to move on more quickly if we split. However, I don't think there is any realistic chance I'd get what I'm asking for and what he's saying he'd give me now even if I filed tomorrow, unless I played really sweet and nice and friendly until the ink was dry. And I honestly don't know if I can do that. So, there's that. But I'm continuing to think on this part. It has been bothering me a lot the last couple of days.

[AlisonUK]

I wonder May, if you can make some decisions now that would get you towards a good divorce or a good marriage? I think those decisions are fundamentally the same - respect for yourself, clear communication, respect for the autonomy of others, honest about your needs and desires, etc etc. You don't have to decide what path you are on yet.

And in your situation, I think for either a good marriage or a good divorce, the pair of you need to experience you saying NO to your husband's manipulation, and him accepting that.

[KitCat]

May - you are quite brave!!! And you have a logical thought process AND I understand your fears. Your fears of pulling the trigger yourself and then not being able to take it back.

So - ask yourself? What snapped his head BACK to the AP? Fear of loss.

He may have some fears in losing you but he has a of lot more ropes attached to you than AP - kids, shared life, history, financials, etc. In his head these "ropes" will keep you bound no matter what he decides to do with AP. That's his safety net.

I'm just like you. Do I pull the trigger and live with the regret if I had just held out a little longer he would have come around? In pulling the trigger does he suddenly have a WTH moment that I called his bluff and moved on?

I think we both need to drop the rope... let them go to get them back...

And, yes above all else you should adopt the mindset of being the best co-parent ever!!! This doesn't mean you have to be bff's... it does mean you have to be friendly. But you can find kindness and joy in sharing your kids and their accomplishments. It doesn't mean you are allowing the door to be open for him to ask how you are doing... and vice versa. You can maintain an air of mystery and keep all contact related to business items only. Heck, you can even sit next to each other at events if you choose... even an occasion of going out to pizza afterwards, but that doesn't mean you have to let him in to your world outside your kids.

As much as you love your kids don't be afraid to pull back while in the same house. Let him have movie night with them and you go for a walk, go visit a friend, go take a bubble bath... then vice versa - you take the kids to the park without him, etc. You can still do things together but it might help him to see the path that lies ahead should he leave.

May I want you to challenge yourself to do 3 things for yourself each day --- they can be simple!!! Like write in your gratitude journal, take a walk, sleep in, DON'T do the dishes, etc. Make a mental note of 3 things May did for simple joy for May.

Peace and Love.

[may22]

Thanks Alison, KC!

KC-- nice to see you here!

I agree with you that he is motivated by fear of loss. That is definitely a dynamic between him and AP and also between the two of us, when I start to move away. And you're totally right about him having ropes to me that can act as a safety net, though I'd always thought about it in the other direction-- I will never get to have a clean break from him. However,

Your fears of pulling the trigger yourself and then not being able to take it back.

This isn't where I am. My fear of walking today would be that five years from now, my younger daughter would be acting out and I would be filled with regret that if only I had tried harder with her dad we would still be M and she would be better off. (I'm more worried about D8 than D10, not sure why.) When I walk, it won't be trying to call his bluff. It will be for good. Right now, I can't imagine wanting him back if he leaves-- to me, for whatever reason, that is the bright line.

On the co-parenting thing... what you describe is like my worst nightmare. I don't want to have pizza with him or share in the kids accomplishments. I want to have as little to do with him as humanly possible. I know that is probably not possible but especially if AP is in the picture, I want to see him from the car at kid exchanges and that is about it. I want to be on the other side of the room at events buffered by all my friends who are glaring daggers at him and he ends up leaving early because no-one will talk to him. Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. (And there is the not-so-nice May coming out.) But I simply don't want to have anything to do with him in that situation. And maybe that will change with time-- it probably will-- but that is how I feel, very very very strongly.

We have been doing things apart with the kids, as well as together, though being together 24-7 with Covid is pretty nuts. We had a good day today and I do think I did three things for myself, thank you for suggesting it! I slept in, took the girls to the craft store and shopped a little bit, read a novel, and cooked an amazing dinner I'd been planning for a couple of days (sous vide short ribs). Let H put the girls to bed and enjoying a nice beer. (so five!) no R talks, no trip talks, just regular exchanges all day.

I wonder May, if you can make some decisions now that would get you towards a good divorce or a good marriage? I think those decisions are fundamentally the same - respect for yourself, clear communication, respect for the autonomy of others, honest about your needs and desires, etc etc. You don't have to decide what path you are on yet.

And in your situation, I think for either a good marriage or a good divorce, the pair of you need to experience you saying NO to your husband's manipulation, and him accepting that.

Alison, I think I can do this, at least partially. I've been thinking on this all day. My H used to have a rage channel. it was his primary one he'd default to when he got frustrated or angry, and would always blow the blame off on someone else (usually me). It would make me crazy and I'd go nuts back and tell him I refused to be treated like this and then we'd end up screaming at each other and I'd nurse a grudge for days. (This was part of what fed into the SSM.)

About a year ago, after reading DB, I simply stopped responding to this when it would happen. I wouldn't yell or get angry. I might say calmly "don't speak to me like that" and would remove myself from the situation. And... it hardly ever, ever happens now. When it does, he catches himself right away and apologizes. I also am OK with say a vocal frustration (like GD it!! if he drops something) whereas before even that would trigger me.

So, I feel like I need to do the same thing with the self-pity channel. The charm channel... that's kind of his default and I can't say I hate it. But the self-pity and self-absorbed channels, whining about AP, blaming me and the SSM, refusing to take responsibility-- that I can turn off. I feel I've been much less responsive in the last couple of weeks than ever before. I just need to turn it up a notch and be more consistent. (I used to be an animal trainer so I actually should be better at this than I am.)

The other thing I think I need to do more of (though this is probably not DB-ing, but if it gets me where I need to be authentically, so be it) is to be more honest about my needs and desires rather than shoving them down for the sake of not acting like I'm pursuing him or controlling him or whatever. I know this is a fine line, especially since he is quite alert to anything that smacks of May control. And, also, I do think our R post children and prior to the A was one big power struggle between the two of us. I think now he feels like he's in the drivers seat and by returning to the M he's handing back over the keys to me... which isn't what I want (and definitely not what he wants). But at the same time I do think it isn't healthy for me to just go along with my mouth shut.

The other dynamic that is at play here, though, is that I gave up a lot of self-care and doing things for myself after I had kids. I felt guilty about it and stopped, and thought my H should stop too. Also, while I love to travel and plan trips, on a day-to-day basis I can easily get stuck at home rather than get out the door to do something-- while H loves to be exploring, getting out of the house, etc. When we were in our power struggle phase, I think I started to lean on staying at home more and more partially to assert my own independence, but to my detriment because then I sat at home fuming with the kids while he went out and did fun things, or we'd both sit home with low-level resentment towards the other.

So a side effect of me trying to 180 on this behavior is that I've totally rediscovered things that I love to do. Hiking is a great example-- we used to hike together a ton before kids. Then I basically stopped and he'd go on his own, occasionally. Now we've been going as a family and I'd forgotten how much I love it, how good it is to be outside, how amazingly gorgeous this place we live is. I feel stronger and better about myself. Camping was the same thing-- the last time we went camping pre-A i complained the entire time because I didn't really want to do it. We've been twice now in the last six months and both times I loved it, had forgotten how amazing it is to get out of the city and see the stars. As soon as I let go of all the power struggle resentment, the enjoyment came rushing back and I am really grateful for that.

H has always pushed me like this and while it does get him what he wants-- the family out the door and outside-- it also is healing and expanding for me. This is part of the reason I want to go on this trip, regardless of him-- because I like this side of myself that I'm rediscovering and I don't want to let it go. I know I can still do all this stuff without him. But we have fun, as a family. I'm just not sure we can be H and W again.

[may22]

Meant to edit the "regular exchanges all day" part but missed the window-- upon reflection, he seems down. Quiet, sleeping a lot, a little crabby. He hasn't said anything about feeling sad though and I haven't worried about it-- just did my thing and had a good day.

[AlisonUK]

So, I feel like I need to do the same thing with the self-pity channel. The charm channel... that's kind of his default and I can't say I hate it. But the self-pity and self-absorbed channels, whining about AP, blaming me and the SSM, refusing to take responsibility-- that I can turn off. I feel I've been much less responsive in the last couple of weeks than ever before. I just need to turn it up a notch and be more consistent. (I used to be an animal trainer so I actually should be better at this than I am.)

This is easier for me than it is for you, in that H doesn't have much of a charm channel... (lol) and I think if he did, I'd be ensnared so much more as of course it is natural to want affection, attention, praise, care and validation from your spouse - these are not pathological needs, they are good ones, and it is very hard to have them met intermittently (you will know if you know about animal training that intermittent reinforcement is the most powerful way to inspire addiction and also to shape behaviour... these days, if my H is in a kind mood or nice to me, I enjoy it, accept with gratitude, and don't let it change decisions I've made calmly and for my own good.

I think you're still controlled by what you imagine his response is going to be - you don't want to express your needs in case he feels controlled. You shouldn't control him, but expressing your needs without making a demand is not controlling. Personally I don't think there's any point expressing your needs to a partner you are not in a committed relationship with though.

[may22]

I think you're still controlled by what you imagine his response is going to be - you don't want to express your needs in case he feels controlled. You shouldn't control him, but expressing your needs without making a demand is not controlling. Personally I don't think there's any point expressing your needs to a partner you are not in a committed relationship with though.

I think you’re right. Even with MC when I had the transparency questions, H literally didn’t even want to hear them or have me write them down for him to read. Now that seems pretty bizarre. He didn’t want to even formally know what they were, yet. (And of course the temporal alignment between the transparency conversation, FINALLY, and reengagement with AP a few days later is hard for me to ignore or assume is a total coincidence).

I guess what I’ve been thinking about is whether or not to say my piece about him needing to delete WhatsApp and block her number and email before the trip. It seems juvenile not to just tell him what I am asking for and then see if he does it, or not.

[FlySolo]

It's been a while ... but I have been reading along.

... gave up a lot of self-care and doing things for myself after I had kids.

Said EVERY WOMAN who has EVER had a child.