Moving On Rather Slowly

[scout12]

((((May))))

He's still not choosing you. He didn't mention you once as a factor in his decision except to blame you yet again for 'damaging him'. Poor sad sausage.

Your own sadness is palpable in this update, even though you have ostensibly won the pick-me dance (for now, that is, until the next protest or birthday or whatever ridiculous reason for breaking no contact happens).

He wants to do the right thing by AP? What about the right thing by May. He owes it to the children? What about everything he owes you. What about respecting and honouring you enough as the mother of those children, as the wife he vowed to love forever, as a strong and beautiful woman who is deserving of love, to get down on his knees and THANK YOU for even giving him the option to choose?

Brutal honesty time. You are not a positive factor in his decision. You are something to be endured so he can pat himself on the back and tell himself how noble and self-sacrificing he is. "This is what's best for the AP and it's best for the children" - look at Gandhi over here! Everyone's getting what they want except H, so May will have to work harder than ever to prove he made the right choice. That's not exactly going to help with his sense of entitlement, is it?

I'm getting a little heated typing this out, so I'll end before I cuss out your H, and I do apologise if this comes on too strong. I do believe in love and I believe in reconciliation if the proper actions are taken on the cheater's behalf. It could still happen with you two. But not with this weak stream of hot garbage from your H.

[KitCat]

I haven't a whole lot to offer as I'm in my own sad mess. But, a few observations.

1) He attempt last night was to pull you back to him because he feels you pulling away... he is starting to see loss. NOT, the right kind of loss and as Scout pointed out he is concerned for AP, for his kids, but still tells you he doesn't think he can love you again. Wanting to give you just enough so you won't bail. *** You absolutely should not take him back unless YOU are the priority in working this out.***

2) How much reading have you done on affairs??? Does the term "the valley" sound familar??? If not I would do some reading on it for sure. May he is leaning in more than he is leaning out last night BUT, will that vacillate to the opposite tomorrow? You may also have read about "false starts"??? Maybe if you understood the valley it may help guide your choices/actions.

3) You have a good head on your shoulders. You are thinking 3 steps ahead with an action plan - moving yourself forward on your own. Keep that course but I have no doubt the more you pull away the more he will be drawn back in. Make sure you have a hard line of MUST HAVES and don't back down. His actions need to match his words and needs to show May its all about the 2 of you. Frankly staying to together because it will hurt the kids less is BS. Kids are also hurt when they see indifference or animosity between their parents.

There is potential but don't settle on his terms this time but on MAYS terms. :-)

[wayfarer]

May just knowing how your H is I don't think he's trying to suck you back in on purpose. I also don't think he's choosing the married life because he thinks you'll make his life hell. I think for the first time he's realizing he isn't going to get his sadistic little way with his happy little family of 5 scenario. I think he's actually starting to weigh plan a1 and a2 against each other and it's scary. I also think like my H whatever the h3ll is coming out of his mouth at that exact moment is what he truly believes in that exact moment. I think you were right to say yeah but you might not feel this way tomorrow. I think that's the reality here. Right now in this moment this is what he wants. In 2 days it may be something else. Is there any way you can ask him to give you like a 3-5 hiatus on these MR talks? Can you just say I need to think about what I really want to do here. I think we both need to talk to our ICs. I think we both need to just not talk about the MR, the A, the AP, the d@mn trip. Just co-exist for a handful of days and both just think on this. Just so you can get a foothold here, May. And maybe lay out exactly what it is you're going to need and if H can see him self complying with what you need without seeing it as perpetual punishment for "falling in love." I mean I was raised very Catholic so we can break it down into penitence you think that's easier for him to swallow..lol. But he's gotta understand if he's all in he's all in. He doesn't get to control the narrative of how that part of your R history get closed. He opened that effed up chapter. You get to close it if he wants you. And you really need to sit with and decide is risking that he'll change his mind again worth it. Is trying for another 4-6 months worth your time and energy or not. There's so much to unpack here May. Can I come over and tell him to just STFU for like 3 days and learn to process in his head like a normal adult? Thinking of you. xoxoxo

[may22]

Alison, Scout, Wayfarer, Kitcat... thank you.

I'm really not putting a whole lot into his words right now. I don't see it as a reason to derail the whole-hearted examination of myself, my fears, my anger, my desires, what I do and don't like about my H as a person and a partner. I don't think him saying this (again, by the way... fool me once, right?) should make me deviate for a second from the path I had started along.

Scout, you're absolutely right that he isn't choosing me. I listened very carefully to what he said and tried to record it faithfully for you guys... the absence of me as a reason to stay was obvious. I *almost* asked " what about me" when he was talking about the children being the reason to stay, but refrained as there was clearly no point to saying that. How I felt last time around was well of course he can't look at me that way since his entire brain is taken over with obsession for this other person. Now... I really don't know. I'm trying to channel Wooba and not care.

I honestly don't want to get dragged into a dissecting of his mindset and where he is or isn't right now, leaning in or not... but i will for a second. (Hard to help myself, bad habits die hard.) I think he's confused and angry and sad. He's still angry with me about the SSM. He has taken more responsibility in the last week or so, two separate times has come up to me outside of an R talk and said something along the lines of I love you and I never stopped, I'm sorry I got us into this terrible situation. I know we're here now and we have to deal with it, but I'm sorry I did it. Yesterday he said (later in the day) I know I was put into a situation that made me open to doing this, but I know I made a series of choices to actually do it and I shouldn't have. I'm sorry. So, that was new, I guess. But he is still really caught up in the SSM even if he isn't directly lashing out at me against it. I truly don't know if it is something he'll ever be able to get over.

All of that, though, has to do with him and not me. I need to decide for myself as we move forward if this is something I want to lean into or out of. If I think there is a chance it will work out. If I really want to be saddled with someone who is clearly a bad bet given our history. But is still the father of my children.

We haven't talked about it again. Wayfarer, I think you're 100% right, if he brings it up I'm going to punt until after we each have our IC appointment (Wednesday). I spent today still dwelling on the things that bother me about him and the good things about being on my own. I'm also afraid that if we "try" and it doesn't work, I'll be in a much worse bargaining position about the children and finances... though time with the kids is 100% the most important thing to me, and I know that custody arrangements can be readdressed at any time. (Anyone reading here with experience-- would it count in my favor if I had physical custody of them now if he went to have an R with his AP, it didn't work out, and he came back wanting 50/50? My guess is that the courts would give him 50/50 as long as he is a good dad, wants it, and has a good,safe place for them-- is that correct? or would there be some leaning towards me just because he didn't fight for 50/50 from the beginning?)

Alison, he is totally not committed. I think he's being honest when he says he's scared and doesn't know. I don't think in a million years he'd ever do the break-it-off-with-her with me in the room gig. I don't know that I'd actually want that anyway except to feed my bitter angry control friend inside. I am trying to figure out how much I want him back for him vs. making sure he doesn't end up with her, because of the public nature of that specific humiliation.

Last week, the IC had asked me what I wanted, and I'd said what I'd said all along-- the two of us really giving our M a shot with AP out of the picture. That our kids are worth the shot. To me, you have an affair, you fall in love-- too f-ing bad. You don't get to have a whole new life and relationship built on the sorrow and betrayal of your first relationship. It just doesn't work that way. you screw up, you hurt the people you're closest to, you try to fix it and make it better. If you can't fix it, you need to at least try. And to me, the R with AP is collateral damage. Too bad, so sad. They both should have known better and that R is doomed to fail.

And, the last couple times we talked he did start to say things about not being sure it would be so peachy with her. That while he loves her and how she makes him feel, he doesn't want to get divorced. He's been pushing back so hard against the feeling that nobody (except his IC) truly believes that this is real love with the AP-- everyone acts like it is a fantasy. he is so adamant that it is not. But now that I think I dropped that line, maybe he stopped fighting so hard against it and is starting to think on his own maybe it is just dopamine hits, or has elements of fantasy, and maybe their love wouldn't be enough to overcome all the obstacles of what he'd have to give up in order to be with her.

Now I know that isn't always the case, sometimes Rs start out as an A and they end up blissfully married. But in my world, I just don't condone that and I will never, ever want her to be a part of my life in any way. I know I don't have much control over that-- she very well may be a part of my childrens' lives-- but I don't have to like it and I don't have to be OK with it and I am angry about even the possibility of it. So, I am trying to sift again through my anger and feelings to be sure it isn't my stubbornness and need to win that I would consider "trying" again vs an honest desire to make it work and a clear-eyed belief that there is any real possibility of that happening.

Anyway... just wanted to update you guys on where I am and thank you for caring and chiming in-- it means a lot. I'm going to keep my head down and focused on me. The way the trip is being planned anyway, even if we were to do the whole thing, would be possible for him to just take the kids for a week or two of it so I don't mind him planning the whole thing-- we could very easily go back to one or two seven night trips instead of one or two five night trips, and I could get them and do something fun with them in the off weeks. So I'm not sure it makes much of a difference to me to insist on him planning 5 night trips with the girls as opposed to the whole family vacation. I'm not committing to go on any part of it at this point or for the children to be with him for all of it, but I'm sure I'm OK with them being there for a week, maybe two weeks split.

And on the trip note-- i can't tell you how incredible it is to have you here who will be honest with me when I'm not 100% in the right. I felt it when I told him no about the 5 day trips-- I knew inside I wasn't being reasonable. I texted my friend who assured me I was being completely reasonable. She asked a bunch of questions which made it clear to me I wasn't really being reasonable, even as I answered her questions and she assured me I was.... so being able to come here and you guys saying "May, this is your control thing coming out" was really important to me and not something I'm getting anywhere else, except from H. So.... thank you. I feel so much better about the whole thing now.

[Traveler]

I'm also afraid that if we "try" and it doesn't work, I'll be in a much worse bargaining position about the children and finances... though time with the kids is 100% the most important thing to me, and I know that custody arrangements can be readdressed at any time. (Anyone reading here with experience-- would it count in my favor if I had physical custody of them now if he went to have an R with his AP, it didn't work out, and he came back wanting 50/50? My guess is that the courts would give him 50/50 as long as he is a good dad, wants it, and has a good,safe place for them-- is that correct? or would there be some leaning towards me just because he didn't fight for 50/50 from the beginning?)

Hi May,

Typically the court both likes to avoid dramatic changes for the kids AND work towards 50/50 if the lesser-custody party's willing. If he were at 0% custody and wanted 50/50, I don't see it happening overnight. It's too big a change. The court may begin with daytime custody, transition to every other weekend, then 50/50 over the course of 18-24 months. That's more or less the process I've seen proposed or enacted in the three cases related to my family. He'd get to 50/50 if he consistently pushed for it without breaking any laws.

[wooba]

I think he's being honest when he says he's scared and doesn't know. I don't think in a million years he'd ever do the break-it-off-with-her with me in the room gig. I don't know that I'd actually want that anyway except to feed my bitter angry control friend inside. I am trying to figure out how much I want him back for him vs. making sure he doesn't end up with her, because of the public nature of that specific humiliation.

May, it is great that you are being really honest with yourself. Take some time and let your inner angry friend calm down. Like you said, the angry you and the zen you might want different things. You have to work through your anger to figure out if you even still want this man in your life.

Last week, the IC had asked me what I wanted, and I'd said what I'd said all along-- the two of us really giving our M a shot with AP out of the picture. That our kids are worth the shot. To me, you have an affair, you fall in love-- too f-ing bad. You don't get to have a whole new life and relationship built on the sorrow and betrayal of your first relationship. It just doesn't work that way. you screw up, you hurt the people you're closest to, you try to fix it and make it better. If you can't fix it, you need to at least try. And to me, the R with AP is collateral damage. Too bad, so sad. They both should have known better and that R is doomed to fail.

You are right, the two of you should give it all and try to work things out. However, this would only work under the condition that your H is “giving his all.” He should do the right thing, but again and again he’s shown that he has been making the wrong choices. He can have a new life and a relationship built on sorrow and betrayal. He already has one with AP. It does mean that he won’t turn around start making right choices again, but meanwhile your anger and opinion won’t be able to stop him from doing what he wants to do. (I’m sure you already know that.)

Like many have said, there is no rush....you have every right to be angry and bitter. But that is not the place you want to be when you make a decision. And I am only able to be zen because my H is staying away from me. If I were in your shoes I don’t know if I could handle things as well as you have!!

[BluWave]

It bums me out that he can just decide what he wants and you are available and ready. I feel like it should be the other way around. May decides what she wants in an H and partner and he is willing and ready to do anything and everything to try and make it work. That is how I imagine this needs to play out. I know people get piszed off when I say this, but people don't want what they can (walk all over) and have. They deem the person as weak and naturally lose respect for them. He has made other comments that suggest he sees you as needy/sad/waiting for him and he almost thrives on the power of being able to comfort you. Even tho he is the soul reason you have been pushed down. This is what we mean by manipulation. It really makes my blood boil. May, you are the prize. You are the queen! He should be so lucky if you ever consider taking him back at all! And next time he brings up the SSM and I don't know if I can forgive you (wah wah wah) maybe you can put your hand up and say stop, that was a long time ago in the past and we have bigger issues in front of us now. Then exit the room.

Have you ever read advice from the vet Starsky? That man was amazing. He was posting a lot when I started reading here 6-7 years ago and his words were pure gold. He had a way of advising people how to confidently and firmly disengage and put up strong boundaries. He was also very clear on what you need to see/hear before even considering their attempts at recon. If he were still around he would have called your Hs BS and bluffs every time. We don't have anyone like him on the boards anymore. But if you can look him up and find his advice, please do. I recall a female poster named Train and I think he helped her with some similar stuff.

In the mean time, it also bums me out to read how much focus we all put on him. What does he want, what is he doing, will he choose AP or you, he was so sad and fell over and cried, and then he was Mr H & dad, and now hes ending it again because we are 100% doing this for the kids, etc, etc, but really something is missing here. May, a M is about two people that have mutual respect & commitment to one another. He hasn't proven that in almost 3 years. Why does he get to just come and go from you to AP to you as he pleases? What about May?

What kind of H and partner do you want in this lifetime? There is nothing about this man that sounds desirable in any way. I am sorry, but I don't see it. And please know that this is not 100% for the kids. Kids love their parents and would not want them to stay in a loveless M for them -- over time that leads to resentment both ways. Your kids deserve to see how a man should treat a woman (and vice versa) and I don't think this is it.

Can we just stick your H aside for a minute and focus on you? What have you been doing for GAL? What do you want for you and you only? How do you feel about telling him to F off for awhile so you can sort out what you really want in an intimate partner?

Blu

[BluWave]

May, as I proofread my comments I am beginning to wonder if maybe the reason it is so hard for you to focus on you and what you want is in part due to a fear that you could discover it is not actually him and who he is now that you really want anymore ....

[may22]

CW-- thank you. I feel like if we were in the "conscious uncoupling" type D, he'd want 50/50 time with them, like three/four days and then switch. I've actually put together a schedule assuming school starts again that would give us exactly 50/50 on waking hours (excepting getting ready for school in the morning because that is no prize for anyone) but they'd sleep here with me. I'm pretty sure he'd be amenable to it right now, but I also realize from a legal perspective it would mean 6 nights with mom and 1 night with dad = dad is paying child support to mom as primary physical custodian. I just don't know if he'd go for that if he wasn't feeling guilty.

Wooba, thanks... I think it is all still detach, detach, detach and focus on what I want.

Blu... I think you may be right about not being sure I really want this H any more. I'm not religious but I've always believed marriage is for life and especially for the children, we shouldn't have had them if we were going to get lazy and chuck it down the tubes a few years in. So I'm angry with him for doing that, angry with myself for taking our M for granted, angry with him for being a weak and pathetic man who is unable to make good decisions and can't face the consequences of his bad ones. And then where does that leave me?

Ugh. I've stood for so long on this "I am not going to be the one to pull the trigger" and I still do not believe that I can. But the feeling I had this time when he told me he was choosing to stay was not the same feeling I had the last time, which was hope. This time was like... oh. really? f*$k. That wasn't what I had been planning on.

I've been reading Alison's old threads. One thing that has really struck me is how much her H milked the 'but you threw me out' line, and I realized this is one of the things I'm trying to avoid. I know, know, know he will do this and it will be awful. He may say it to others, he may say it to the children, and I know he will throw it in my face. And I simply don't want to give him that ammunition.

At this point I don't see it as May is waiting for him with open arms. May has her arms crossed veeeeeery skeptically at this point. I'm trying not to even talk about it with him-- he said it and I haven't brought it back up. I spent all morning keying in on the things I don't like about him. We did go hang out with our friends, which was sort of fun, sort of not as I wasn't in a great mood and there were waaaay too many people to be smart from a Covid perspective, even though it was outdoors. I know H also felt out of sorts as he's felt on the outs with my friend's H for a few months, who wasn't super friendly to H today. H gets all insecure about this, said when we got home that he knew they were glad to see me and the girls but just tolerated H, "guess they brought him along again" which is totally him feeling sorry for himself but also a little bit of the bed he made for himself since he's been a bit of a duck (Cardinal ) to my friend's H in the past.

Anyway. It wasn't the greatest day. Once we got home H wanted to work on planning the big trip, the full four weeks, which is turning out to be harder than expected due to Covid restrictions. He wanted my help so I looked a few things up online while he got really frustrated with some things that are still closed. In my head I'm thinking WE DON'T HAVE TO GO (I did say at one point, we don't have to do this. Just because you said to me what you did yesterday doesn't mean we have to do it. we can go back to the 5 day trip idea. He said nothing.) I'm also thinking THIS IS DUMB as he's basically trying to recreate the trip he had planned that was cancelled in a totally different place, whereas if it was up to me, I'd try to start from the other end-- what are the extra cool things we can do this summer HERE that are possible due to the incredibly low tourist volume and can never do again? I did say this to him, which he acknowledged, but there is just so much caught up in all of this for him. I ended up walking away and going to read a book. He apologized for being stressed out and thanked me for helping him. (so again. he isn't irredeemable. And a year ago he NEVER would have apologized for something like this. We'd both have stewed and it would have been tense for the whole rest of the day. This is part of the reason why I'm holding on, I think. There have been significant and positive changes in his behavior ... though of course not in the one, most meaningful way... but it also means that we as a couple and us as individuals are capable of positive change. it makes it harder for me to turn my back.)

Blu, yes. I can absolutely tell him to stop whining about the SSM the next time it comes up. The IC asked me to talk through what I'm focusing on for myself-- both how I've thought about the SSM and what I want now and for the future-- and she's been very clear to me that i've spent enough time working on myself in/re the SSM. it is time for me to stop enabling him and he needs to start taking responsibility and facing the consequences of his actions. By listening to him, validating or apologizing about the SSM, and soothing him he is just avoiding all of that. So I have decided that the next time it comes up more than a mention I will say something along the lines of what you suggest, Blu. So far, if he's said just one sentence, I've said nothing. I've generally tried to be more silent than letting him know what I think.

I still have Scout's questions copied onto my iPhone and journal... what DO I want in a partner and H? what are the values I'm looking for? How do I want to be treated? what unmet needs have I had in the M? I've been thinking on these. Not quite ready to commit them to paper. But they've been on my mind.

Blu, for GAL.. not much, to be honest. Thinking and having some conversations about my potential new consulting career which are honestly incredibly promising and exciting but which I can't really move forward with if I D from H, so that is both GAL at some level and also just making myself feel worse about what is happening. And anger-inducing since H encouraged this over and over and still is, since he doesn't want to actually get D-ed and also doesn't want the guilt of me leaving this dream behind because we're separating, so keeps trying to tell me to pursue it and we'll make it work. (I don't trust this and won't go forward with it if we S).

Self-care-- I got my baby Botox last week. I need to start exercising and sleeping again. I ate a normal amount today for the first time in awhile which I think was really good. I was actually hungry. If I stay in my current job, I have this new opportunity to pursue there that my boss has offered me and I'm actually excited about, which hasn't happened at work for awhile. Spending time really trying to be there for my kids. Reading escapist novels. Seeing friends occasionally, though with one exception I feel fake because I'm not ready to say what is actually going on in my life. Same with my family. (Actually the only family member I've talked to is my MIL who has been amazing.)

Not sure I can tell him to F off IRL but have been trying to communicate it nonverbally. I put a bunch of stuff away in a drawer he'd recently reorganized in the wrong places, because I just don't really care. He got all huffy... I spent two hours rearranging this and you don't even take the time to put the things back where they belong. I said, yeah, too bad I'm not feeling too motivated to give a $hit what you think these days. He started to say something that I think was going to be along the lines of well maybe you should have .... and then caught my eye and shut his mouth.

We also did have a kind of interesting sidebar couple of lines exchanged. H said something while cooking dinner to the effect of he felt trapped in the M and couldn't leave because I wouldn't let him. I said, whoa whoa whoa. i'm not stopping you. you should GO. And he said, thoughtfully, maybe I shouldn't frame it that way. i guess you are just telling me your truths (that I don't want to be BFFs with him, which is forcing him to stay) just like I'm telling you my truths. I said, I appreciate that. And walked away.

Anyway... I am the queen! Right? So much easier said than done. But I think I'm in a better and stronger place than I was back in January, and much more motivated right now to focus on what is best for ME. So my plan is to keep the focus on me, keep working on detaching, my anger and fears, and knowing I'll be OK no matter what. Kids too.

xoxo M

[may22]

PS Blu, I'll look up Starsky. Thanks for that!