Thanks, Alison. This is hard. It would be so much easier if he didn't live here and we didn't spend 24 hours a day together w/COVID.
I had a rough morning. Didn't get much sleep last night and still feel totally drained from emotion over Hamilton (I can't believe how much it affected me) and the conversation where I told H he could take the kids on the trip. Trying to plan an outdoor get together with one of my closest friends, ended up bailing yesterday for a variety of reasons (including H--and me too to be honest, but I blamed it on H to my friend because I just felt like it-- being concerned about social distancing measures as the virus is on the rise again in our area) but locked in something for Sunday that we'd been talking about with our girls for a couple of weeks. She texted me this morning to say hey, needed to let me know that she'd also been talking about this same excursion with three other families, two of whom are being totally terrible at social distancing, wanted to let me know in case H was uncomfortable.
I just felt so sad. All I wanted was the semi-normalcy of hanging out with my friend and the kids and to feel like there were people who were there for me, even when I am not yet ready to talk about this big thing that is tearing my life apart. And now I feel (I know this is just emotion speaking, it isn't really true, but it is how I feel right now) that I don't have that outlet, that H and I are going to be in this lonely, angry, sad capsule staring at each other until one person blinks or there is a vaccine. H said apparently our MC is totally full up, has all these new clients emerging from the lockdown.
And, I can't imagine disappointing my kids who have been talking about this excursion for weeks now. I think we'll go and just try to keep socially distanced-- it is outdoors-- but I'm disappointed in my friend and in the whole country, right now. She's a total social butterfly and it is who she is, and I usually love her for it. But I'm just frustrated right now.
H ordered a bunch of books on Amazon for trip planning. They came today. He showed them to me and I said, cool.
H knew I was feeling sad about my friend and hugged me. He asked me if I was conflating the thing with my friend with the other stuff going on, if I was worried that my friends wouldn't be there for me if we split. I acknowledged. He said you know that isn't true, you have good friends that will always be there for you. I'm the one without any good friends in this city. I said, I always thought you were my best friend. (I know not DBing.) He said, I'm here. Right now, I'm here.
Then he decided to morph into a philosophical discussion of marriage, there have to be so many things going right for an M to work, good friends, sexual intimacy, good roommates, social partners, good co-parents, etc. And then one thing goes wrong and society tells us we have to get rid of all of it. I said, I don't want to talk about this and walked away. (Honestly, the "societal norms" argument makes me so frustrated, I just can't hear it anymore.) He got angry... it isn't cool for you to just walk away from me and brush me off, I understand you have boundaries but that hand wave is rude (OK, probably true, I did do a dismissive wave with my hand in the air). Then he said you're making the choice to throw away all those other things. That is on you. I said, F you, H. and walked away. He then left to go help a friend move.
Guess saying F you and walking away isn't really DB-ing. I very much feel like it is my own business how friendly I choose to be with him after we split and I refuse to be his crutch for not making a decision. Yet in those moments I'm kind of stuck still-- I don't have a good answer that isn't either controlling or a lie. Is it just a calm "I understand you see it that way" and disengaging?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Being divorced is going to be better for you than this current situation is. Being R'd is going to be better for you than this current situation is. You cannot possibly loose as each step to being a co-operative co-parent, dealing with your own fears, setting clear boundaries and sticking to them and not taking on board the silly nonsense he puts your way is a step towards both divorce and reconciliation: healthy marriages and civilised divorces lie in the same direction. I am almost sure of this.
I was thinking about this, Alison. here's the problem. I don't WANT a civilized divorce with him with her in the picture. I know this is the anger talking but I want a scorched earth, all our friends choosing me and ostracizing him, taking him to the cleaners and he lives a sad and shallow D-bag life in a pathetic small apartment kind of divorce. I guess I'm coming around to the not needing to say or be too awful in person because I don't want to look deranged or have my children see any of that, but in the honest truth I would want to say "direct all correspondence to my L" and wear sunglasses and never make eye contact when we swap out the children. I'm a looooooong way from being OK with a civilized friendly D.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I understand you have boundaries but that hand wave is rude (OK, probably true, I did do a dismissive wave with my hand in the air). Then he said you're making the choice to throw away all those other things. That is on you. I said, F you, H. and walked away. He then left to go help a friend move.
Guess saying F you and walking away isn't really DB-ing. I very much feel like it is my own business how friendly I choose to be with him after we split and I refuse to be his crutch for not making a decision. Yet in those moments I'm kind of stuck still-- I don't have a good answer that isn't either controlling or a lie. Is it just a calm "I understand you see it that way" and disengaging?
May, I see nothing to fault in these actions. He said, "I understand you have boundaries"--then why did he step on them again?! You seem to have been consistent about not being open to discussing OW, helping him make his decision of you vs OW, or his fantasy of You + OW. A rude boundary violation earned a hand wave plus you walking away. A rude second boundary violation earned an F You plus you walking away. You're teaching him you respect your boundaries. You don't owe him listening to those topics.
I second CW here. You did nothing wrong. He is taking every tiny chink of your vulnerability and getting his fingers under it - as you said earlier.
And a civilised divorce can be many things. For some, it will be shared Christmases and summer holidays with new partners. With others, it will be the sexy, mysterious woman in the big expensive sunglasses who is utterly unavailable to the man who she used to be married to. You will find your own way. Where you are right now is a station on the way to your destination, not the final place.
I would want to say "direct all correspondence to my L" and wear sunglasses and never make eye contact when we swap out the children. I'm a looooooong way from being OK with a civilized friendly D.
That is your prerogative, May. Civilised contact IS exactly what you are talking about and you aren’t obliged to give your H one ounce more of consideration. Are you screaming at him in front of the children or smashing his windscreen with a golf club? No? Then you are being civilised. Being friends with a person who betrayed you and endangered your health and destroyed your finances and lied to your children would be a Herculean feat.
Think of marriage in business terms. You literally had a signed contract that your H has breached. You unfortunately have a continuing contract to raise children with the man who committed ‘crimes’ against your ‘company’. Do you have to be friendly with a business partner who embezzled from your company? Or with the mugger who pistol-whipped you and stole your handbag? That would be absurd.
The beauty of the kind of civilised divorce you’re talking about is that it really, truly allows you to make a clean break and heal properly because you can be as NC as possible. Continued friendship or whatever you want to call it will keep you stuck. Some people can make it happen, but your dynamic is far too codependent. Perhaps in the future - once YOU have healed and YOU decide to reach out - you can grant your H the gift of friendship.
And just quietly, I can advocate for the civilised, non-friendly divorce. It works for me and I don’t miss the friendship any more. It is difficult at first to set and enforce boundaries - not coming into the house, no chit chat. I know I came off cold and tense. You have to stop caring about what he thinks of you. When my X first moved out, I wouldn’t be caught dead in less than a full face of makeup, blow-dried hair, nice clothes whenever he came around. Now I couldn’t care less.
Exes who betray us should lose the privilege of having access to our innermost thoughts and feelings.
The key thing for you to remember is that NONE of this precludes reconciliation. I think you will let go of your fear once you accept this.
I had another thought on civility that I couldn't add above.
I believe that abusive partners use our inherent goodness and desire to keep the peace as a way to keep us under the thumb. X once lambasted me in a rage for not being civil. He had taken house keys without my knowledge and let himself in. When I expressed my surprise and concern, and asked for the keys back, and let him know he had crossed a boundary, he said "If you want this to be civil, don't start sh!t with me".
Translation: "Let me do whatever I want or I'll retaliate."
I too think “That is on you” deserved an F you—he is trying to pass this off on you again! Seriously? Plus, you are human, may, and your H is being a real duck. Yes, let’s say duck, as that is board appropriate. I really empathize with you, may—I’m in a mood today for various reasons and was just thinking about this interview I heard once on NPR—was it a woman who had lost her son? I can’t remember. Anyway, she was talking about grief, and the thing that stuck with me was that she’s learned to live with the waves when they come. That hit me today as I feel I’m in a wave, and I currently don’t want to think about the waves continuing to come for... an indefinite period of time. It’s life, I know. But today I’m missing my best friend.
So, yeah, this Hamilton hangover is real (art can really stir things up!) and maybe you are in the swell right now, but I hope you are able to connect with your friend in some way tomorrow. Looks like I’m offering more commiseration than comfort, maybe because I’m not feeling super DB today. Hugs from one capsule-dweller to another!
Scout (and Alison) that civilized, expensive sunglasses version of D is really appealing to me. I like it.
Cardinal, thanks for sharing that story. I think it does come in waves. I'm here with you too. The "Hamilton hangover" also makes so much sense to me. (Also, he is a duck. I like that too.)
H came home and I was laying in bed with the kiddos, looking up recipes for tea cakes. (They wanted a tea party). He crashed in and hugged me, and all of us. He drew me aside and said he's decided to end it with AP. That he doesn't believe that he could ever be mentally sane or happy with AP knowing that he might have damaged the children. That she wants kids and the right thing to do is to stop holding her back, let her live her life, and let her go. That he owes it to the children to really work on our M without her in the picture and see if we can make this work. That this continued ambivalence that he's been doing for the past two years is untenable. He can't keep doing it. And if he needs to make a choice he wants to choose the one that hurts the kids the least.
Then he said, I'm really scared. I'm really scared we can't make it work, that I won't be able to get over the SSM and fall back in love with you. I'm really damaged.
I didn't say much. In my head I'm wondering if here I got what I've been wishing for and it isn't really a prize, that he's right, we're dooming ourselves to years of misery and settling. That I'll never really be able to fully trust and love him again. Why are we putting ourselves through this charade.
I said, how would it be different this time? He said, it will be. I will never contact her. I said, how do I know she isn't going to throw a bomb into it like she did last time? he said, I don't know. I'll tell you about it this time. I'm scared. I don't know.
I said, you are saying this right now, you may change your mind and feel differently tomorrow. Let's not rush into anything. I would need to know that this time will be different in order to feel comfortable trying. There is no hurry.
He wants to do the full trip as originally planned with all four of us. I am skeptical. I said I don't know that this is a good idea right now. He said, I need this. I said, you can take the girls, it will be OK. He said, for a month??? Totally skeptically and I was like, oh yeah. Right. That won't really work. I dropped it.
So. I'm just going to let this sit. I'm not feeling happy or enthused about it. I know this is what I said I wanted but I don't know if he is for real, I don't know if this is really the best thing for either of us, I don't have confidence this time will be any different from the last. And yet all along I've kept tight to our kids deserve us trying and we simply can't try with a third party in the picture. We won't know until she's gone for good. And I guess this is a step in that direction.
I don't really want to think about it seriously right now, so I don't think I will. I think I'll continue to focus on me and the girls.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think focusing on yourself and keeping your course is a good idea, May. Your husband is spinning and is probably going to say anything to get what he wants. This might be sincere, or it might be the 'charm' offensive as rage and self pity and the childish manipulation hasn't worked.
I think all you can do right now is hold your boundaries and understand that for your H words are cheap and meaningless, and it is by his actions that you will know he has committed to the M. Cast your mind over what happened earlier this year, when he refused to block her number, made a song and dance about deleting playlists, and lied to you for months about sleeping with her at their last meeting. You tolerated that in the name of giving him space and relinquishing control over his actions. I don't doubt your motivations were the right ones - but it didn't work.
I don't suggest you give him a laundry list of things he 'must' do to prove his commitment. But I do suggest you watch his actions carefully, and have extremely high standards for yourself in terms of what you will and won't commit to.
In your shoes, I'd expect no less than him telling her, while you were in the room, that it was over and he was never going to be in contact with her again. Total, life-long NC with numbers deleted, playlists gone etc. Full transparency. IC for him and MC for you both, where the matters of his infidelity and the SMM will be addressed in solution focused ways. A consistent respect of your boundaries. I wouldn't tell him he needed to do those things, I'd just be looking out for those actions happening, of his own free will, pretty soon and with enthusiasm. And if they didn't, I'd be assuming that we were in some version of the same 'I'm trying but not really, I'm just saying whatever it takes to shut you up and make sure I get what I want,' and make my decisions based on that fact.
For example - this exchange:
Quote
I said, how do I know she isn't going to throw a bomb into it like she did last time? he said, I don't know. I'll tell you about it this time. I'm scared. I don't know.
is pathetic (of him). If he was really committed to this, he'd have said something like, 'I will make sure she is unable to contact me. I will block all her phone numbers and social media contacts today, in front of you. If she manages to get through that, I will tell you immediately and I will block her again.'
Words are nothing without a plan of action. And the responsibility for coming up with the plan of action is his, not yours.
Even then, of course, there's no guarantee. I know you know that. And I would proceed as if there is no guarantee, no matter what efforts you see him making - which would mean making sure I was as financially independent as possible, had a strong support network of friends and family, impeccable GAL and assertive boundaries and no immediate financial or property commitments that would disadvantage you in the event of a divorce or you discovering he was cheating again.
