Lol so your H said you shouldn’t be a Democrat and my H told me stop acting like Donald Trump. I am seriously lmao right now. Sometimes these WASes say the most ridiculous things and it makes everything pretty comedic.
I’m so proud of you for not engaging! Yes the not letting him taking the girls on a trip is a bit of control issue for you, but as long as you see that too, take your time to work past it. You are reasonably angry, and it might take some time to get there where you can let that go.
So... you're probably right. I have no safety issues. no good reasons to say no except I simply don't want to. I probably need to sit with this for a bit because it isn't really setting us up for a healthy co-parenting dynamic, and stepping back this isn't the person I want to be in the long run. But right now I just don't have it in me to be cool with this.
This is good, May. You don't have to be Mother Theresa in all of this. You just have to be honest with yourself about your motivations. I don't know if it would be a good idea to say this to your H. To give him some version of, 'look, I know this isn't reasonable and I know you are having trouble with it. There's a part of me that agrees with you, and I wish I was in the position to be in a different place about this, but I am so angry and so disappointed with your decisions that right now, I just can't. I really don't want to be in this place forever and I am working on it.'
I really don't know if that would be a good idea. Part of me thinks he'd take any admission of uncertainty or vulnerability on your part and use it to manipulate you. That he'd position himself as a man of sense and sanity, and you being run by your emotions - and use that to get his own way on everything. And that you'd let him. When in actual fact, you are working on being steady and making progress but you aren't all the way there yet, and he doesn't seem to be even ready to try. Do you think if you did say this to him, and instead of an adult response, which would look something like, 'I get that. This is hard and it isn't your fault it is hard. Let's postpone the idea of a holiday for now and revisit it in six months when things are clearer,' he actually tries to take advantage of your honesty, you would be able to stay firm and assertive in the face of that?
I popped back in here before bed because I couldn’t stop snorting about the Democrat comment and then I saw wooba’s Donald Trump comment... I, too, am laughing my @ss off right now. I hope you are smiling, May!
Just wanted to say that I completely empathise with your feelings. It’s not the same as a week-long trip, but... about three months after BD, X took my S (who was about 18 months old at the time) to his parents place for a family BBQ. It was the first family event where I was not invited. My S was experiencing some separation anxiety at the time, and his dad had been MIA from his life in all meaningful ways since BD, so he had to be peeled, screaming, from my arms. I cried my everloving eyes out once they left (after trying to explain to my little S that mama was very sorry and very sad and wished she could come too but he would have fun and it would all be okay, while X stood there and did nothing to comfort or reassure the baby)... whew.
Anyway. I had a point about acceptance and letting go of control. Consider the difference between boundaries, conditions, and reactions.
Boundary: “I’m not comfortable with the girls being away for that long.” Condition: “I’m not comfortable with the girls being away for that long UNLESS we are working on the marriage.” Reaction: “I’m not comfortable with the girls being away for that long BECAUSE you are a lying, cheating sh!tbag.”
Boundaries are based on principle. Conditions and reactions are based on emotion.
All you can do is state your boundary to H. He decides whether to respect it or not. He respects it - cancels or postpones the trip. He doesn’t respect it - sulks or rages or threatens. The reason for your discomfort doesn’t need to be disclosed. Your feelings are valid and don’t require explanation. Alison’s script is excellent if you are working with someone reasonable and respectful. However, at this point, your H uses your explanations as an opportunity to negotiate. And because boundaries are principled, they should never be negotiated, lest you betray yourself.
Act on principle, not emotion. If you can’t disagree with the trip on principle... let them go.
You are an authentic person. You’ll know the difference between the three, intrinsically, because putting forth conditions and reactions will make you feel hollow inside. They may have the desired effect on your H’s behaviour, but it will be a Pyrrhic victory. Conditions are fear manifesting as control. Reactions are anger manifesting as control. If you try to act on principle rather than emotion, you’ll be able to look back on this horrid time with pride in your strength rather than regret for your weakness.
Note: we all have moments of weakness during our marriage crises and they absolutely should be excused due to stress
Last edited by job; 07/04/2011:32 AM. Reason: edited language
Hello my May, I'm always reading along. Every day, twice a day I check on you. I'm always checking on everybody, but I'm in a weird place right now, and I don't have much to offer other than long distance virtual love and support.
And yes Hamilton was one of the last things we did as a family and everyone in this house is so excited but we likely won't be able to sit down and watch it until Sunday. We have 3 small grill outs between today and tomorrow. Oh yeah I'm a wife in public again at least for now...lol. As to Hamilton though, don't let AP taint this for your girls. Your mood and stress level will be felt by them. You can let go that this a "family" thing if you need to to get through it, and focus on that this is for those kiddos. That this is something they adore. The way they adore each of you. And they'd really like to do this together. Look at this as practice for a life time of events where you have to play nice and get out of your head and chest for the benefit of your babies. Recitals, plays, parent teacher conferences, dances, graduations, weddings. This is all a part of your future if you're on a path to S/D and no time is better than the present to start feeling out how you can handle these things.
As to the trip. The conversation he was being a complete nut job. And I don't know that I would've agreed to anything in that moment either. But I'm with scout and Allison. This has control issue written all over it. And H calling you out on that made you dig your heels in even more. Because girl, trust me in the heat of the moment I would've done the same d@mn thing. So seriously no judgement on that at all, but a little baby pile on 2x4. He is a good dad. He is a safe dad. Two 5 day trips is no different than like sleep away camp. I know it was your idea and you're p!ssed. I know H doesn't deserve your kindness. Or to stay awesome in your daughters eyes, but you can't take away things you know in you're head are wonderful, healthy options because your heart is screaming FFFF***********KKKK YYYOOOOUUUU to H. You can plan a separate 5 day trip with the girls. You can take those 10 days and just scream and cry, and let all of this out with out having to steel yourself around the girls. Or pretend everything is normal. You can pack all of H's stuff. You can rearrange the house. Or go get the puppy and start training. You can do more planning, research and list making about D/S, I see you girl. I know those post-its and binders are calling your name. I would and would've killed for H to have taken the girls and let me process literally any of this with out all of us being on top of each other. This could be a good thing for all of you if you let it be. If there was ever a time to let go and let god, I think these little summer excursions are it.
Last as far as attorneys go, this is based on my experience in courts. Especially in family matters, go with the attorney who makes you feel comfortable and feels familiar. She will see you at some of your lowest moments. She will be there cheering you on when you get what you wanted. All divorce attorneys are bull dog attorneys from my experience. But the serious ones....ugh, we don't like them in court, we don't like them in mediation, and unless they have a super serious client you can always see there's a strain. This stuff is hard and even in the best of circumstances with custody and placement, a house, and, probably a retirement you're looking at spending a year or more with this person. Who can you see yourself talking with weekly for the next year? And who are you going to feel good about paying an ungodly amount of money to for those billable 30 mins you just sobbed on the phone for? That's who you want. They are paid to fight for you. Any divorce attorney will. The question is more, who would you rather be there fighting beside you?
Wooba, I'd forgotten about that Trump comment. I am smiling about it all now.
On the trip and control thing. Bear with me a minute, I'm going to try to figure some stuff out here and have a few questions.
Scout, I think I'm feeling both the condition and reaction part right now. I'm scared if he goes and has a fun time on this trip (which I know he will) it will just be more evidence for him that D is the right answer. I'm scared if I change my mind it will be more evidence for him that I *will* change my mind on other things and he'll be able to have his fantasy D. I'm scared if I let up even one single inch on this, he'll get his fingers under there and use it to convince me that this is actually all OK, step by step, starting with this five day trip and moving on to a month next summer and ending with being BFFs with H and AP. In the dynamic we have going on right now, where it very much does feel like a power struggle, I feel like I need to hold onto my truths/boundaries/whatever-I'm-calling-them-- or else I'm just demonstrating that he can get whatever he wants if he only badgers me enough about it.
The anger/reaction side says why should he get to do this. F him. I *do* have control over some things and maybe it gives me the illusion of greater control over my life in general to be able to hang onto the threads I have, which include being able to say yes or no to my children going on a trip.
I think I was a little thrown from having the trip morph so quickly from four weeks (a two week chunk followed by two one weeks) into two five-day trips, which you guys are right, are eminently more reasonable. But I'd spent all my energy thinking about a month or maybe two weeks at a minimum and was able to feel comfortable saying no to those, I'd said no to 2 weeks over and over and over throughout our M but have been OK with one week. So him coming back to me with two five days stretches as a proposal is actually pretty reasonable, I know. i am just not sure I am able to be reasonable right now.
In terms of what would happen if I was vulnerable... he definitely wouldn't say postpone the trip for six months. At this point, we have no coverage for the kids starting at the end of July for a month so that was part of all of this. I think I would get one of two answers-- one, he might say thank you for being honest and considering this. Two, he might say something along the lines of "I knew you would be reasonable" which would make me feel like this is all just a slippery slope and i'm just proving he can convince me of anything.
So... I'm struggling with the idea of letting go, making sure I'm really NOT being controlling (and yes, I see that I am here) in terms of dictating what our future Ded lives will look like)-- that feels like DBing. Let go and let god. But also afraid that by letting go of what *I* want or believe for the future, i'll get swept up into his next level of garbage and a year from now telling you guys it isn't so bad to have a sister-wife.
OK. So he just got back from surfing and walked in. Asked me what I was doing, I said journaling and put away my computer. He had some look on his face I couldn't quite interpret. I said, I'm thinking. About what you asked me. This is hard. And I wanted to go on this trip too. And (unfortunately) a tear ran down my cheek.
He said, I know. He put his hand on my arm then took it away. he said, that isn't really fair, because you know I want you to come. that is my ideal for this trip, that the two of us are showing our girls our State, together, as a family. I want any potential future to always include the potential for these kinds of things. But I know that is not something that you are okay with.
Then he said, I know you think we should just go on this trip, and I should let her go, and we can buckle down and work on us. And that is really attractive to me. But I feel like for two years I kept postponing my decision based on short-term things-- I'll just get through this and then I'll deal with it--and I don't know that using the time pressure of this trip is a good idea for me. I'm not ready to make a decision today. I said, when will you ever be ready? He said, I don't know. I'm waiting for some big new factor to sweep in and make it easy. Your anger is a new factor and big. It goes both ways. Part of me thinks if you're going to be a b*$ch why should I want to be with you? But I know that you deserve to be angry and it was maybe strange before that the anger wasn't here, and so maybe it is good in that direction too (I think, meaning if we stay together. He had said in the past he was afraid if he stayed that my rage would come out one day and be terrible.)
I didn't say anything.
Then he said, what if we just spent some time together and each laid out 100% what we are thinking without any interjections or disagreeing or agreeing or anything? Just said everything we are thinking. We could get out a white board and map out a decision tree. (He started to get v enthusiastic). I said, I don't think that is a good idea. I don't want to do your emotional processing for you. That isn't fair. I feel like you just want me to make the decision with you so that you feel less guilty about the decision you make. He said, that isn't it. I'm comfortable with that decision needing to be mine. I just want you to be comfortable with whatever comes after, either direction. I just don't have anyone to really process this with and who knows me better than you? And if we could separate that friends part of each of us from the damaged romantic partner parts of us, maybe we could do it. (Note that he also considers himself a damaged romantic partner because of the SSM.)
I didn't respond. Don't think I'm going to do that, particularly the whiteboarding part (really???) And then somehow this discussion about the trip did morph into a request for, if I'm understanding this correctly, a request for me to listen without judging or interrupting a monologue about everything he thinks which of course would include AP and trample all over my boundaries. So, folks, you see about the slippery slope? While at the same time he wasn't really overt about it. and I don't actually think it was deliberate. Just that I gave him a little glimpse of "May can be reasonable" and his brain jumps immediately to the big thing he wants me to accept.
yet, I know that having an H choose to stay in an M because he is afraid of his W being too unreasonable in a D situation is not what I want, either. And somehow, this post turned from me trying to examine my own fears and insecurities around the trip into dissecting his head again.
Well, at least I don't think he has cottoned onto much of this going on in my head. I didn't say yes to anything. I just told him I was thinking about it and it was hard. I didn't agree to any additional R talks. I just listened, he was respectful in demeanor.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
((Hugs)) I've been following daily and I'm sorry your journey is going this way.
I give 2x4s in some situations, but you're incredibly self-aware. You realize his offer of two 5-day trips is reasonable (something I'd have no qualms saying yes to if my ex-W asked) and a 30-day trip is not.
I get your point. You were prepared to say "No" to a 14-day plus vacation, so when he offered a 5-day vacation, you repeated "No". You want him to know your "No" is serious when it comes to enjoying OW and having a family life with you. Although, he's sorta doing that now, enjoying virtual contact with OW.
Originally Posted by May
I know that having an H choose to stay in an M because he is afraid of his W being too unreasonable in a D situation is not what I want, either.
You also don't want to be the one to pull the trigger. You want him to choose for himself.
I suspect, in his mind, you or your actions will always be responsible.
Originally Posted by May's H
I'm waiting for some big new factor to sweep in and make it easy. Your anger is a new factor and big.
Have you considered you each going on separate 5-day trips with the kids?
Maybe you take the one you planned and dreamed about first, and then he can do whatever he wants, which probably entails coming up with his own plan because the kids would be bored to do the same thing twice.
I'm scared if he goes and has a fun time on this trip (which I know he will) it will just be more evidence for him that D is the right answer. I'm scared if I change my mind it will be more evidence for him that I *will* change my mind on other things and he'll be able to have his fantasy D. I'm scared if I let up even one single inch on this, he'll get his fingers under there and use it to convince me that this is actually all OK, step by step, starting with this five day trip and moving on to a month next summer and ending with being BFFs with H and AP. In the dynamic we have going on right now, where it very much does feel like a power struggle, I feel like I need to hold onto my truths/boundaries/whatever-I'm-calling-them-- or else I'm just demonstrating that he can get whatever he wants if he only badgers me enough about it.
This is where the good stuff is, May. You are being really honest. A lot of this is about your wish to control what he thinks and feels about you and your marriage, isn't it? I get that. And those urges to control don't come from a place or love, or peace, or self-care - they come from fear.
Being divorced is going to be better for you than this current situation is. Being R'd is going to be better for you than this current situation is. You cannot possibly loose as each step to being a co-operative co-parent, dealing with your own fears, setting clear boundaries and sticking to them and not taking on board the silly nonsense he puts your way is a step towards both divorce and reconciliation: healthy marriages and civilised divorces lie in the same direction. I am almost sure of this.
You will not be driving him away but letting go of the control and holding to your boundaries, you will just be ridding this dynamic of what is unhealthy. The control from fear on your part, the manipulation from immaturity on his. Whether he chooses to stick around for a healthy marriage is up to him - he may very well not - but you can be in control of offering that and nothing else.
I also think you are very wise to be wary of 'giving him an inch' - though the person who decides how far to go and no further is you, and not him.
Just because you compromise on the holiday for the sake of co-parenting does not mean you compromise on the other things - unless you decide to. It's much easier to say 'no' to everything than it is to pick and choose what is okay and what is not (I know this from experience) but if the only thing that is holding you back is what he might or might not think of you, then you can let that go. You decide what kind of conversations you have, what kind of marriage you want, and what kind of divorce you're going to have.
Maybe it would help to separate the marriage from the parenting. If you divorce, you're going to have to do that anyway. You will have to find a way to communicate cordially and fully with him regarding your daughters even if he throws you out and moves his AP in and sleeps with her in the marital bed while your girls are in the living room watching cartoons. That doesn't mean you're going to have to be his friend, like him, approve of him or what he does, spend social time with him, or even wish him well.
I think by making the counter-offer, "If you want a 5-day trip with the kids, I get one first" you drop the unreasonable position without looking like a flip-flopper. You also get a chance to go on the vacation you planned and dreamed about with the kids. He has to plan his own 5-day trip.
I told him it would be OK for him to take the girls for five days, we'd work it out if need be.
He told me he spent the day trying to figure out how to tell AP he was done. And didn't get an answer. That if he knew how to end it he would and if he knew he wanted to choose AP he would have done it already. He doesn't know what to do.
I said, if you want to go, the kids will be ok. I will make it work.
He said, I have two mental health professionals (his IC and MC) telling me the kids will be fine if we D. I have everyone else in my life (mom, brother, me, I guess) telling him they won't. That they're the most important thing to him and he can't do something that would hurt them.
I repeated. They'llbe fine. I'll work with you. I'll be fine. They'll be fine. He didn't respond. Went to bed and asked me to not stay up too late.
We watched Hamilton tonight and it totally broke me, I'm a mess. When Philip died I started crying and didn't stop. I'm floored that something I've listened to over and over and over can still have that much of an impact to see it on TV. My poor D10 was like "mommy I don't like it when you cry like this" and got me kleenex and then whispered to me if you smile it makes you feel better-- really, it does-- I do it-- try it. Which only made me feel awful. Probably set me up for this conversation. I feel spent.
thanks for being there.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think you handled that really really well May. You were truthful you didn't seek to control and you didn't accept any responsibility for his mess.
I think his response sounds a bit different, doesn't it? He's talking about himself - his problem, his inability to decide, the difficulty this is causing him. I still see no reason you should listen to it, but at least he isn't blaming it on you right now.
I think this limbo has worked pretty well for him so far, but you withdrawing and putting all his mess on his lap and making no threats or promises about the future has caused a change.
You might get more rage / charm / self pity or he might try some other bargaining tactics to spin this out for longer.
Equally, you might decide a man as weak and dishonest and selfish as this is no catch, and pull the trigger yourself.
Either way, the status quo is now over and will stay over so long as you hold steady.
It is painful, but you're on the right track. Take care of yourself. The kids WILL be fine. It's a shame they have such a weak and dishonest man for a father, but perhaps he will turn himself around at some point in the future and the knowledge of what he's capable of will give him humility and compassion that they will benefit from. You can't do anything there. But they have an amazing mother and they are loved. They will be okay. YOU will be okay.
