Moving On Rather Slowly

[scout12]

I'm still reading the rest of the posts, but this:

It is the shape of the marriage, the house, the children, the comfortable dance in the kitchen in the mornings and the bathroom at night. The person who you can still vent to and who listens and validates and tells you you were right and so-and-so is such a jerk to have said that to you. Who picks up your D when she comes out of her room for the fourth time and can't sleep and goes and lays down with her until she finally passes out. Who makes you a drink after work and says no, sit, I'll take care of the dishes or dinner or whatever. Pays the bills and congratulates you for doing something great and texts silly jokes to your mom.

There are literally billions of men on the planet who can do this! They won't be your kids' father, and they won't share your history, but any long-term relationship has all these elements. Not to mention the trust and respect and everything else you don't have with your current H.

Staying with H is a bad bet as he's already proven himself capable of terrible betrayal and deception. Another man COULD be capable, but your current husband IS. Statistically, the odds are better with someone new. Just something to keep in mind, I know you are not even thinking of dating or anything like that.

Your posts are all about H. What he said, what he thought, how he felt, what it means. So I would like to know more about May! I'm not particularly concerned about H's opinions or the context of the current dynamic. Not so you can play the victim, but to understand how your H has failed as a husband in ways other than the affair. I guarantee he was not the perfect husband before this started because a SSM doesn't exist in a vacuum.

This isn't an exercise in blame, because we all fail in many ways in relationships, but I want you to stop blaming yourself. So if you say "my H wasn't XYZ, but that's because I wasn't XYZ", I will give you a gentle tap with a 2x4

- What are the values you seek in a partner?
- How do you want a partner to treat you in a marriage?
- What unmet needs did you have in the marriage?

[Pommy99]

I think I shook my head and said, the kids will be fine. Then I went into a split proposal of when he could spend time with them every day after school and then take half the weekend. That I'd looked at rentals and finances and we could afford for him to have a separate place, that it was stupid for him to want to live in the basement to save money. That wouldn't be good for any of us. These were my truths in the moment, about how I saw the future. In that moment, the 75% part of me didn't really care what my telling him would make him think or do. The 25% hopeful part of me was thinking OK, I am showing him what S/D will really look like and maybe popping his fantasy bubble and confronting the reality of the situation will help him choose to stay. Does he need to live it to understand it? Or could it be like Scrooge's dreams in A Christmas Carol, enough to make him change?

I think he needs to live it to understand it. He knows what it *might* feel like for him, but he has so far proved he is unable to see things from anyone else's perspective and still holds on to this pipe dream of being a happy family of 5. I suspect he will be unprepared for the fallout of breaking up a family, and how the children are going to react (I think this is so much of an unknown, no matter how much you prepare them for the changes ahead). Re the holiday scenario, I dont see you as being petty. Does he really think that during this period uncertainty (which clearly your D has already picked up on) the girls will want to spend 2/3/4 weeks away from their home and their mum? They might not want to go with him at all - has he considered that? Whether you frame it as being for their benefit not to go for a prolonged period, or for your own benefit, you are not in the wrong, and it's ok to say "I'm not ready for this right now". He's taken away your M, your H, potentially your home and now the children, all on his terms? He doesnt get to have it all his own way, it doesnt work like that!! That's not to say you should be confrontational and controlling, or that you treat the children as commodities, but it's ok to say that you need more time to adapt. The children will too.

[AlisonUK]

Hi May

I guess when I said how would it feel to confront him with your truths, I was asking more about you than him.

If you are going to do it, less words are better.

'I don't believe that,' works. So does 'that's a very self-serving way to look at this, and I don't buy it for one minute,' or 'I don't plan on justifying my decisions based on what you imagine I might or might not do in the future,' or 'you are being very manipulative and I won't engage with that.'

You don't need to convince him to see things your way. You don't need to understand the intricacies of WHY he sees it the way he does. I only suggest you get it on the table that you don't buy his %^I( any more, and I suggest this because I think it will be good for your wellbeing.

[may22]

Thanks, everyone.

Scout-- your questions deserve more than what I can give them right now but I've been pondering them and will work on them over the next few days.

I think he needs to live it to understand it. He knows what it *might* feel like for him, but he has so far proved he is unable to see things from anyone else's perspective and still holds on to this pipe dream of being a happy family of 5. I suspect he will be unprepared for the fallout of breaking up a family, and how the children are going to react (I think this is so much of an unknown, no matter how much you prepare them for the changes ahead). Re the holiday scenario, I dont see you as being petty. Does he really think that during this period uncertainty (which clearly your D has already picked up on) the girls will want to spend 2/3/4 weeks away from their home and their mum? They might not want to go with him at all - has he considered that? Whether you frame it as being for their benefit not to go for a prolonged period, or for your own benefit, you are not in the wrong, and it's ok to say "I'm not ready for this right now". He's taken away your M, your H, potentially your home and now the children, all on his terms? He doesnt get to have it all his own way, it doesnt work like that!! That's not to say you should be confrontational and controlling, or that you treat the children as commodities, but it's ok to say that you need more time to adapt. The children will too.

Pommy-- I think you're right. It just makes me SO ANGRY that he is so fixated on (whatever) that the children need to be dragged into this. His mom told me she thinks he has no idea how angry D10 is going to be at him. I know they're resilient and all the rest. It just burns me that they will be paying for his selfish decisions. And thanks for the reinforcement on the vacation. I'm feeling confident here and that it isn't my job anymore to take his feelings into consideration, and also that it isn't my job to get him on board with why I'm making certain decisions. Once we split, all that goes away.

Alison-- I think I'm pretty much in the same place I was the day we had that conversation I described-- 75% detached, 25% that traitorous hopeful side wondering if my doing XY or Z will weight him to choose the MR, even though intellectually I know that isn't a good idea, there is nothing that says to me he will magically become a good partner, etc. I like the less words and simply not engaging. That I can do.

Quick journaling-- if I examine myself and how I feel this week versus last week, I feel significantly better. Less anxiety. More anger. I talked to my friend and told her the physical manifestations had moved from the heavy pit in the stomach of fear and anxiety to the low burn of anger in my chest. She said I sounded a lot better, less emotion when talking about him. So, I do feel like I'm moving in the right direction. I want to continue to focus on myself and my boundaries, stop worrying about his motivations or behaviors or whatever, focus on the positives in the future for me on my own.

I went to the dentist yesterday and came home to H finishing his IC session. He gave me a sad look and said he wasn't OK, he had had a panic attack a half hour before his call and was freaking out, has never had a panic attack before, blah blah blah. I said, OK. Are you OK now? he said no. I said, I'm sorry. and then disengaged. Later he said he could tell that I really felt a lot better after my IC appointment yesterday and I confirmed. I said (maybe shouldn't have but I did) that it really helped me start to focus on myself, confirmed for me that boundaries are not threats. He said I don't even know what your boundaries are excepting not wanting to talk about AP. I said, things like not being friends, not playing happy family on a trip, etc. I'll make decisions in my own best interest and that of the children. He got super quiet and left the room.

I'm feeling better and better about the trip (July 25) being the end of this situation. The children and I are not going if the current situation persists. And, the fact that he's been looking at apartments makes me feel much better that we won't have some extended garbage of him living in the basement. I think he'll go, maybe after he gets back from his trip. (My friend said she'd help me pack up his stuff while he was away too.)

Scout, will work on your questions.

[AlisonUK]

I went to the dentist yesterday and came home to H finishing his IC session. He gave me a sad look and said he wasn't OK, he had had a panic attack a half hour before his call and was freaking out, has never had a panic attack before, blah blah blah. I said, OK. Are you OK now? he said no. I said, I'm sorry. and then disengaged. Later he said he could tell that I really felt a lot better after my IC appointment yesterday and I confirmed. I said (maybe shouldn't have but I did) that it really helped me start to focus on myself, confirmed for me that boundaries are not threats. He said I don't even know what your boundaries are excepting not wanting to talk about AP. I said, things like not being friends, not playing happy family on a trip, etc. I'll make decisions in my own best interest and that of the children. He got super quiet and left the room.

STANDING OVATION.

You handled this really well.

Watch for what happens next. He's probably going to go full on self pity - there might be crying, not-eating, wafting around the house looking ostentatiously miserable. Talking long and loud about what a horrible person he is and how terrible he feels about himself. If he does this, he's still looking for a 'there there' from Mommy and what you're looking for is an adult, a partner, a man who can make a decision and take responsibility for clearing up his mess.

I am so glad you are feeling better May. Don't be afraid of your anger. It is your rocket fuel for getting unstuck.

[scout12]

YES, MAY!

Remember the mindf*ck channels. Rage, charm, self-pity. You are really getting a handle on noticing his manipulative behaviour. The next step is calling it out. Prepare for the rage channel when you do. It will be easier to stay calm when you remember how the pattern works. The manipulation attempts will become laughable. I do believe he will lose his power over you once he realises you've cottoned on. Take the wind from his sails and draw up your spine because you are a QUEEN!

Do no harm but take no sh!t!

[may22]

OK guys,

I need some moral support here. You guys would be totally proud of what I just did but it was not easy.

He came to talk to me (I was laying in bed reading). Said he knew he had scheduled the campervan rentals without talking to me, really, and he mostly did it in response to having to cancel the big trip. I said nothing. He asked what I thought of shortening it to two five-day trips and he could take the girls. I said no. He said well if we decide to make a go of it we can do the trips together as a family. I shrugged, nodded. he said well what if we're still in this place we are right now? No change? I just looked at him and he answered his own question, then I guess we should just cancel it. I went back to my book.

He kept walking in and saying something and leaving when I wouldn't engage. Examples: (he had a 1-1 session with the MC today) MC said it is messed up you're using this trip as leverage to get what you want. You're going to get your way and control me like you've controlled me our entire lives. You can't have it both ways, you love me and want to R with me on one hand or you hate me on the other. You can't play both sides. You shouldn't be a Democrat because you are so close-minded. You only see what you want to see and refuse to consider anything else. (That made me kind of angry, I said I'm not going to listen to this and walked away. He said that's how it's always been, you won't listen.) If we are split by then it is only fair you get them half the time and I get them half the time so I can legally take them on these trips. (To this I did respond, no, you can't. We both have to agree on travel, legally.) Then, you can't say you love them and are making decisions in their best interest if you don't let them go. You're being selfish. You can't both say you want to R because it is in the best interests of our children and yet switch to not taking them into consideration, they'll have to do more summer school instead of a trip? Maybe I'll just go by myself then (I said that sounds great and he leapt on that immediately-- why is it not OK for them to be away from you but OK for them to be away from me?). Etc.

It wasn't yelling, but he was angry. I tried to imagine him like a wave battering me as a tall rock or cliff on the shore. I wasn't going anywhere. (Someone gave me that imagery a long time ago-- thank you!) I responded minimally, from I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to speculate, I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not having this discussion with you right now, I'm not going to be manipulated into changing my mind. This is a boundary for me. I left twice. At one point he said this is three weeks away, the likelihood is that things won't have changed significantly. I said, maybe they should. This can't go on forever. he said, if you've changed your mind about what you want let me know. I said, I'm not making this decision for you.

Anyway. That was it. He took D10 to soccer practice and I'm trying to be calm and be sure I'm doing the right thing. I *don't* want him to decide to stay in the M because otherwise I won't "let" him go on this trip with the kids without me. I get I can stop this whole thing by pulling the plug but I really don't want to do that still. I want to make him make this choice himself.

I guess-- focus on me, I'm doing the right thing by myself and the kids. I don't want to be apart from them, I don't think it is in their best interests to be apart from me. Partially, I kind of get not really that much of a change to play happy family on a trip vs playing happy family here at home, so maybe this is yet another arbitrary deadline I've put onto this. he said how are we going to explain to them why we aren't going on this trip if we are in this same place in three weeks? I didn't answer, but that is kind of a good question. I just want either a clean break or the third party out of the picture. I don't want to continue to enable his ridiculous fantasy by playing along.

I know consistency is key and there is more to come of all of this.

[scout12]

MC said it is messed up you're using this trip as leverage to get what you want. You're going to get your way and control me like you've controlled me our entire lives. You can't have it both ways, you love me and want to R with me on one hand or you hate me on the other. You can't play both sides. You shouldn't be a Democrat because you are so close-minded. You only see what you want to see and refuse to consider anything else. (That made me kind of angry, I said I'm not going to listen to this and walked away. He said that's how it's always been, you won't listen.) If we are split by then it is only fair you get them half the time and I get them half the time so I can legally take them on these trips. (To this I did respond, no, you can't. We both have to agree on travel, legally.) Then, you can't say you love them and are making decisions in their best interest if you don't let them go. You're being selfish. You can't both say you want to R because it is in the best interests of our children and yet switch to not taking them into consideration, they'll have to do more summer school instead of a trip? Maybe I'll just go by myself then (I said that sounds great and he leapt on that immediately-- why is it not OK for them to be away from you but OK for them to be away from me?). Etc.

Translation: "WAAAAH! It's not FAIR! If you don't give me what I want, you're a big MEANIE and you don't LOVE me! Actually, I don't love YOU. I might just RUN AWAY from home because you are so MEAN! Maybe THEN you'll care about me. I'm taking my favourite toys and I'm LEAVING! I don't CARE what you say. You're not the BOSS of me! NYAHHHH!"

I busted a gut at "you shouldn't be a Democrat because you are so close-minded". That is the funniest thing I've read in a while. How did you keep a straight face?!

Rage channel mixed with self-pity. Brush it off. The accusation that you didn't consider his FEEEEELINGS is absurd and patently wrong.

You probably hate this idea. But I actually think you might benefit from him taking the kids on a trip. Just gently, I do think this is a little bit of a control issue for you. Agreeing to it will calm him down and make him more agreeable. You get some space to breathe and prepare for whatever comes next. You could also use it as leverage. He can take the kids, as long as he agrees to move out upon their return. He can take the kids, but you want a separation agreement and custody arrangement hammered out in advance. He can take the kids, but he has to break the news to them about whatever comes next.

Just a thought.

[AlisonUK]

Good morning May. You did great! Scout called this - he was having a little temper tantrum because he's not getting his own way. I think in time you will come to find this as silly and amusing as we do. In the meantime, just do what you're dong - don't take the bait, don't negotiate with him when he's being emotionally manipulative, and don't show any upset, fear or anger. You are amazing.

I suspect your Husband will turn the volume up on this before he's done - either more rage, or self pity, or charm - so watch for that. Have your handbag, purse and keys to hand so that if you need to leave abruptly for a walk, you can do.

A lot of your journey over the past few months has been about accepting the truth and bringing your actions into line with that truth. I see you doing that. It isn't easy. And a lot of that journey has been painful - it has been horrible for you to accept your husband is a lying cheater who manipulates you to get what he wants and that you have been allowing that. It's horrible.

I think there might be more steps to take. If you rebuild a marriage with your H it is going to have to rest on your complete autonomy - no manipulation from him - and his complete freedom - no pressure or bargaining from you. And if you divorce, you will have to navigate co-parenting just the same - with a man you have no influence or control over, and who has no influence and control over you.

I don't think I'd want my kids away from me for a month either. But unless you have specific safety concerns, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't take them for two five day trips. If he's a good dad the kids need him and they need alone time with him. And if you divorce, 50/50 might be best for the girls and vacations with a father who loves them and is capable of caring for them is good for them and good for you.

I wonder if you are ready to drop the rope entirely? It seems he does feel controlled, and it seems there are two things you are hanging on to - not letting him have this trip with the girls - and telling him what his divorced future is going to look like. What does it feel like to let those goes?

'I've changed my mind. We're going to move towards 50/50 custody with the girls, so we may as well get used to that now.'

'I have no idea what our friendship will be like in ten year's time. All I know is that I won't be in an open marriage, and that I don't particularly feel like being friendly with a man I am divorcing for adultery right now.'

I think moving toward these positions would help your H feel less controlled, wouldn't mean you giving up your boundaries, and might put enough space and air into the situation that your husband can think about what he wants and needs rather than constantly pitting himself against Big Bad May who won't let him have his own way.

[may22]

Scout, on reflection the Democrat comment was funny. In the moment I was miffed. But at the same time I was thinking is he kidding me? Are we really comparing me not wanting to have fake family holiday with my cheating husband with being a Republican???

I was reading your post, Scout, the toddler part, when he was putting the kids down. I was giggling and he came and sat down right next to me, super close, and asked me what I was giggling about. I'd closed the phone up and said I didn't want to tell him. he got all hurt... I'm "keeping secrets" from him now. I don't want to tell him what I'm doing on my phone. Isn't that exactly what I'm asking him not to do.

Ok. That was actually funny in real time. I didn't laugh out loud though I know I had to control it a little. I told him that was pretty rich coming from him.

We're planning on watching Hamilton tomorrow night as a family (woo hoo Disney Plus!!). The girls are super excited. We were supposed to go on Spring Break to see it, but had to cancel for Covid. Our girls are so, so into it. Wayfinder, if you're reading here, I remember you saying seeing Hamilton was one of the last things you did together as a family before BD, is that right? It has become this huge family thing, the kids listen to it as their sleep soundtrack, they did camping skits with the songs, we listen to it in the car all the time. My daughters know every single word. And a couple of weeks ago when he'd read Shirley Glass and decided to get all the rest of the potentially hurtful secrets off his chest, one was that he has actually already seen Hamilton. Two years ago. With AP. he assured me that he may have seen it with her but she didn't contaminate it for him, it was a special family thing, him with the girls and me. And I'm like... you don't get that both ways. Sorry. now it *is* kind of contaminated for me. I'm just so pissed at him for blowing everything up in our lives, I can't even watch this show now I've been looking forward to for literally years with my kids without thinking of H and AP together on a f-ing date.

Alison, Scout... In/re the trip. I spent some time trying to think if I was being unreasonable. I think I probably am. But I *feel* unreasonable at the moment. I don't want him to take the kids away for five nights. I don't want him to go have fun and pretend everything is A-ok. I'm angry and sad and not really feeling like doing anything to make him happy. The sick, twisted angry part of me would happily live a stunted life for awhile if it meant his life was stunted more. I'd suck it up and play into every horrible image he has of me, if only to prevent him from getting everything he wants. Now I'm being the foot-stomping toddler. Also, I'm pissed because this particular trip was MY IDEA. I'm the one who wants to do it. Now I don't get to go because oh right, my GD H is a d$!khead.

(And this is why I don't like to tend the anger inside of me. I am NOT NICE.)

So... you're probably right. I have no safety issues. no good reasons to say no except I simply don't want to. I probably need to sit with this for a bit because it isn't really setting us up for a healthy co-parenting dynamic, and stepping back this isn't the person I want to be in the long run. But right now I just don't have it in me to be cool with this.

I had a second attorney consult today. She was looser than the first attorney, pretty funny. I'm not sure which one I'd want more in a real situation. But she did say she thought a post-nup would be a good idea if we didn't end up getting Ded right away for whatever reason. And was a bit more open in terms of the breadth of agreements we could make with each other financially, like we could possibly still co-own the house but I would have sole occupancy rights. And if he spends any money on AP it is a credit back to me. So good to continue to have more advice on how to protect myself going forward.