I am a silent reader of your sitch. I try to stay away from here these days, but you and your sitch is an example of what proper DBing is.
It is good Dbing! Just because the outcome of the marriage isn’t reconciliation, Doesn’t mean you aren’t Doing this right. You have simply found worth in yourself to not sacrifice yourself for the sake of your marriage. You stand up for yourself, give calm alternatives to disagreements which is choses not to take.
What I drive home all the time is that people can’t handle is that DBing isn’t doing whatever you can to not upset your spouse so they don’t want to divorce you. That’s not going to lead to a healthy reconciliation.
I think you are a rockstar and a woman and mother with very strong self worth and your kids are going to see that. And I’m pretty sure your H does, but he doesn’t value himself enough to see that
The thing that really opened my eyes to H's racket was the way he talked about my being controlling. I sat with that for a long time.
I think there was some truth in it. I know I used my tears and feminine ways to get him to feel guilty and to stop doing things that I didn't like.
I know I also used to cry and get upset when I felt he wasn't giving me enough attention.
I think now, I get the fun and attention and love I need though GAL and my friends. And when he does things I don't like, I either communicate it to him or take action to remove myself from it.
So I think there's some truth - I did use my emotions to control him. And now I have stopped doing that, it is clear I did it because the ways he chose to act in our marriage were not acceptable to me. I controlled - or attempted to control - a situation that hurt me rather than getting strong and removing myself from it.
I think from his point of view, my objecting to his nonsense and then removing myself from the punishment is controlling - in that he doesn't get to do what he wants to do, which is to use his emotions (rage or self pity) to get me to do something he wants me to do.
We will see how this works out. He might be good at raging, but I'm much stronger and more thoughtful than he is - and I know full well I will be fine on my own. I really don't think he does know that, which is why he needs to pretend he's staying with me because I'm too incompetent to manage on my own. I think he knows I see that now.
What Blu and Ginger are saying really resonates with me. "Effortless" DB-ing because that is where you are, authentically detached, calm, confident, knowing you are going to be OK no matter what.
The idea of your H pretending that he has to stay because you are too incompetent to manage on your own is truly too laughable for words. I actually snorted out loud reading that.
This whole time, the idea of detachment has felt unattainable. Like true enlightenment. I've felt whispers of it, even thought I got there once before, but I don't really think so. Maybe because the vets already got there and so are speaking from the other side, saying you need to come over here! Come! But the path is not clear or easy and the gulf between where I am now and where they are feels unbridgeable. Not to say I don't truly appreciate the support and the feedback-- I do, wholly-- but I am also really grateful to you, Alison, because I feel like I have seen you go through these stages here, you've been such and open and honest poster, and you've allowed me to travel along beside you and somehow knowing you have done it, you're there, makes it feel more possible to me. So-- thank you for that. It just clicked for me. Not that I have my path charted in front of me yet-- I don't-- but suddenly I feel like it is possible, not just a pipe dream. I can do this, because I watched Alison do it and I want to be like her.
You are also so good about boundaries and being willing to look at yourself to make major change, not just cosmetic changes like doing things you love, but also the things that were more difficult to sort through and see, like examining yourself for behaviors that were controlling and stopping them. And then sharing again with me how you did that and pointing out when I'm doing it too-- some of which I really am only figuring out now, all these months into the process-- again, thank you.
I'm glad you're doing so well and I'm glad you're here.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Thank you May. I am glad I am here too. This is a little secret place for me, that I use more like a diary really - but I know I get such a lot out of reflecting on things and seeing other people do the same.
I've had a nice couple of days in my house. H is being calm and reasonable and co-operative and we've had rational conversations about a couple of 'hot button' issues that needed sorting out. Not R-talks - I don't care to have anything like that with him right now - but just domestic and child rearing co-operation type stuff. Remember a while ago I asked him if we could get our diaries out and compare working schedules so I knew which evenings were free and which were not free for my GAL? And he went off on a rant about how it wasn't his fault I didn't know his shift pattern, or something like that? The usual spew? When I asked him for the same thing last night, I was a bit wary - and prepared to just cut the ranting off at the knees. I had a phrase prepared, 'I am asking you for information so we can co-parent and I can make sure we both get time with the kids and on our own. If you don't give me that information, I will go ahead and do what I think is best and you can fit in with me. You can choose, but ranting at me is not an option.' But actually, he was very cordial and fine and we sorted it out no problems (his work is not flexible and mine is, so it isn't unreasonable at all for me to know when he is working late or antisocial hours, so I can plan around him) and I could tell by the way he was acting that he remembered our previous interaction on this matter. So that's a good thing.
We also had a board games night with the kids - and Eldest joined in and it was lovely to see him relaxed and laughing and him and his father sharing a joke. I don't pretend I had anything to do with influencing that (perhaps me getting out from between them and letting them be as childish as they like together, without triangulating on me helped a bit?) but it was just really nice and made me realise we hadn't had fun together as a family like that for a long time. I have had nice times with H, and I know he spends good times with Youngest and is a good dad to him. And I have nice times with both my kids. But when we're all together the dynamic very often goes wrong somehow - I don't know what my part in that is yet (perhaps an anxiety about conflict happening has made me controlling which has irritated H and Eldest - that could be a bit of it - and I don't feel that anxiety about conflict now) but I just really enjoyed it.
I don't get the sense that H is on best behaviour to try and manipulate something out of me - I am not sulking or giving hi the silent treatment or being cold or unfriendly - and he knows I am investigating my financial options but I've said I have no wish to kick him out of the house or take him to the cleaners or anything like that. Today that contempt I was feeling for him has gone - I just think, 'here is someone I used to love deeply, and for the time being I have to live with him. I see he has many good qualities and many bad ones, and I am not going to engage with or take responsibility for any of his bad qualities at all, and I am going to live my life and not try to manage or control our relationship so it is safe for me, but accept what is there and protect myself from the stuff I don't want' and that feels more or less okay today.
There's a lot of tension gone out of me and the house generally.
I am glad you diary here because your sitch provides a good example to others, but I don't comment much because there's not a whole lot I can add. You're doing all the right things.
The board game night sounds excellent. We use to have board game nights (before my H moved out and after, we'd have them without) until D13 started her "teen years". It was 75% good natured fun and 25% bickering, but I would still put up with the 25% to have the 75% back. I am envious.
I was talking to a friend the other day who recently broke up with his GF. He described his relationship as 99% perfect. I think that's the problem - our minds somehow turn our relationships into all bad or all good. Or we recognise the bad in others but take away their responsibility (we internalise their fault, or we make excuses for them). That's what you use to do, you would see his bad behaviour, and make excuses for him (work stress, if I recall correctly). I think that's the biggest change in you. You see him for what he is (good and bad) and you allow him to own both. He IS a good father. He can sometimes be a sh!t human being. I don't think he is trying to manipulate you either. I think he is just trying to do the best he can, and sometimes, because none of use are perfect, he effs up. I think you are now at a point where even if he does *** up, you can look at the intention/motivator, and not the action.
Not wanting to show you his schedule is his own trauma/childish/gut response to a feeling that doing so would be relinquishing control. He processed (consciously or unconsciously) that fear and came out the other side thinking that the request was a reasonable one.
I've woken up in a strange mood today. H hasn't done anything - he's mainly been at work, and been a little grumpy and short tempered with exhaustion when he's been in the house, but mainly just sleeping - which is fine and what I expected. I don't think my feelings relate to anything he has done or not done. The house is peaceful and he is treating me fine and respecting my boundaries - at the moment.
What is bubbling up for me if that he is never, ever sorry. He's done and said some really atrocious things both in our distant and recent past. He will - he has - sometimes expressed some regret, but it is has been in the context of me telling him how awful it was for me, and how difficult I find it to feel safe with him, not as the result of a change of heart caused by self reflection.
I know I can protect myself from him when he starts raging and sulking. It doesn't really hurt me any more. But I do carry hurt from the past. I don't want to rely on his remorse and sorrow to let go of that and feel better - because this isn't to do with him and our M but it is to with my well being.
This is a bit of of a pattern with me: I can do brilliant boundaries, and for a while he will respond and treat me with respect, and when I do that that space and safety, my feelings about the way he treated me in the past bubble up.
I wish I'd had boundaries like this a year or two years ago. If I had, I'd have divorced him by now. I am not sure how knowing that - 100% - is compatible with piecing. I don't think I can piece things together with him without him really getting what he did, and being sorry for it - and there is sometimes glimmers of that, but not in any sustained way - he just doesn't have the emotional maturity to do that self reflection.
I am not sure why I am all of a tangle today. I don't really want to be around him, but I'm not pulling the trigger on D either, and I could - there's nothing financial or practical stopping me. I feel stuck.
There is nothing wrong, intrinsically, with feeling stuck for a bit. it means something. You're the absolute best at figuring that kind of thing out, taking a step back, feeling your feelings, casting aside the distractions and honing in on what really counts. You'll do that again here. I think maybe feeling stuck right now is not a bad thing. It is OK to slow down, figure out what is going on. Be kind to yourself.
I know all the books say that he has to take responsibility for you to heal. Back when I thought my H was back in it, I had a lot of anger bubbling up and a similar "I don't know exactly what to do with this" because he was not ready to handle it. I wonder that if even in the best of cases, when the WH comes begging back on their hands and knees, ultra remorseful and willing to do anything to make it right-- if piecing is hard even in those circumstances, is there even a chance when things aren't perfect?
But then I also think-- life isn't perfect. Things don't work this way. What if your next step isn't needing him to show remorse for you to forgive him? What if you could process those feelings on your own, and know he simply doesn't have the capacity right now to own his hurtful behaviors and tell you he's sorry in any kind of meaningful way? Is there a way you could still let that hurt go, nothing to do with him, everything to do with you not wanting to hang onto those feelings anymore, for YOU?
I know I said this to you awhile back and I think it may be worth repeating. I wonder how much of your stuck-ness on the past has to do with being upset with him for treating you poorly, and how much it has to do with you letting yourself be treated poorly?
Hoping you can get some space for yourself today, do something nice for yourself, give yourself a break from this for a bit. The answers will come to you. I'm not worried at all.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Whilst I am not in the same place as you, I do know what it feels like to be stuck. Like a decision has to be made and you don't know what that decision is. But I've come to realise that sometimes you don't need to make a decision. You just need to let it be. Irrespective of the situation, the answer is one step in front of the other.
There is also something to be said about 'our truths'. We talk a lot here about not letting our truths be eroded by their truths. But even our truths are not fixed. They change from day to day and from minute to minute. You say you want to leave him (and that is true) and you say you want to try and work on it (and that is true also). You are searching for an answer through self reflection and also by keenly monitoring his behaviour.
Self reflection has it's place. You've done a lot of it over the last two years. You've dissected your relationship, identified areas to work on and worked on them. But you cannot change the past. It is time to leave the past behind and continue your work on you.
Monitoring his behaviour for sign also has it place. But his behaviour will change from day to day because change is hard. He is trying. Sometimes he will succeed, sometimes he will fall back into his old patters. Don't monitor too closely but watch for consistency over time. Not the daily one step back two steps forward changes.
What is really positive about your sitch is you KNOW that no-matter how this plays out - you WILL be alright.
That's a powerful position to come from and that is because of all the work you've done on yourself over the last year. Now, let it just play out. May is right, the answers will come ... but I will add .... if you stop trying to force the answers to come.
I am noticing a pattern. There were a couple of months when I was posting here and going, 'yeah, it's mainly fine, and now and again he behaves awfully, and I have boundaries around that, but 'fine' isn't enough for me.'
I wondered if my super-tight boundaries were the thing causing 'fine' and stopping us getting to 'great' so I relaxed them a little, he acted abysmally, and I've tightened them up again and stepped up on me telling my own truth, as I see it, in respectful ways, when I see fit. I think that's a good decision for me and I certainly feel better about it.
Now we're at 'fine' again. I can list the good points: he is working incredibly hard in a very difficult job (this isn't an excuse for when he behaves badly, but it is true - he's exhausted and the work is physically and mentally demanding and at times, quite traumatic). He makes a fair financial contribution and I never need to worry about that. There's no sense that he is financially controlling or withholding, and I am not either.
He also does a fair share of housework and that generally isn't a problem. I'm working at home right now so I do more of that and the day-to-day childcare, but he pulls his weight at the weekends on both, and he does respect my work and doesn't expect me to be 100% working and 100% housewife at the same time. If I'm tired or bored or can't be bothered and the housework slides, he considers that to be 'our' job to sort out and not mine. I value that a lot.
He is accountable to me where he is and when I can expect to see him. He can sometimes be a bit annoying when I am trying to pin down his working pattern, but I don't have any doubts that is related to a continuing EA or PA. He texts me when he's at work, checks in with me and sees if there's anything I need, and he asks me before taking on extra shifts. He lets me know when he is going to be late. When he goes go out for GAL, he generally arranges this with me.
He is not controlling about my GAL. I could see my friends or get out every evening if I wanted to, and he'd never interfere or try to stop me, even if it meant he was doing a double shift of work and childcare, or was responsible for the cooking several nights in a row. It's never a problem.
I am doing cooking for all of us and all washing again. I told him I wasn't going to, he said fine, and I felt so petty about it - and silly - given that it isn't extra work for me - that I quietly started again. He is generally pretty good at expressing gratitude for these sorts of things. I don't feel domestically taken for granted.
I have a BUT feeling and I don't know where it is coming from. FS, you're right, I would be totally fine without him. In some ways, it would be practically harder and in others it would be easier. May - I think you're right in that there's always been a part of me that has wanted him down on bended knee, full of remorse, and begging for forgiveness. I guess there's a bit of me that wants our shared story to be that he was the 'bad guy' and I 'forgave him' as much as he needs the story to be that I was incompetent, and he came back to 'save' me. Neither of these are true stories. The true story is, we had a bad marriage that we slid into through selfishness, neglect and emotional immaturity on both our parts. He blew this up with a short-lived EA, I reacted to that incredibly destructively (I basically had a tantrum that lasted a full year!) and we got caught in a cycle where his anger caused some damage to me, and my distress caused me to be controlling, which damaged him.
And now - here we are. I think we do both hold back. And I think we both are really resistant to 'accepting' the story of the other. There's a part of me that wants him to be so incredibly sorry he treats me like a princess FOREVER and there's a part of him that wants me to be so incredibly needy and broken that I treat him like a hero FOREVER. And I'm not treating him like a hero and he doesn't like it, and he's not treating me like a precious princess and I don't like it.
I know that's not a mature or attractive thing to admit to, but it is true so I may as well lay it out there. I am sure this thing with my promotion at work ties into that. I wanted him to be delighted and amazed and treasure me and shower me with praise and affection, and he still wants me to be needy and desperate and looking up to him as my saviour, and neither of us really knew what to do as two mature and equal adults in that moment.
I guess it is new to us. We were very young when we got together (I am 37 and we've been together since I was 22) and perhaps some of this is the growing pains of a long relationship. Perhaps we are moving towards a less idealised and more equal way of doing things. Perhaps we're moving apart, and towards a civilised divorce.
I really don't know yet. Thanks for bearing with me while I try to work it out!
Life is not perfect. We are all just trying to navigate through it. That he is (partly) empathetic to your emotional requirements is a good start. That you recognise that your relationship being only 'fine' because you had a mental block stopping it from being 'great' is a good start.
Like life, none of us is perfect. That he fails to live up to your expectations is due to YOUR expectations. He is working through his sh!t. His intentions (from my reading) are good it is just he cannot meet ALL your needs, either because he cannot know all your needs (do you even know what you need at any given time?) or he is still protecting himself from getting/causing hurt.
Separations are a traumatic experience for all parties. The WA might try and bury that trauma with drugs, alcohol, fuel, food, working out, work, but at some point they have to deal with it. Your H is dealing with it. Keep your boundaries, but understand that he has them too.
PS - My H has had to deal with it too I think. The path back is too hard so he has chosen a fresh slate. My understanding of that is half way to accepting, which is half way to forgiving. We are all on a journey. You, me and our H's.
