Finding and living compassionate indifference

[cardinal]

Hi, Kind. Thanks for your words here! It’s funny—in the past in some ways I was more confrontational. I would have wanted to talk about things. I wouldn’t have been quiet. I do need to think about whether the only reason I am not doing something is because I’m worried about how he’ll react. I’m feeling more emotional and on edge right now, not so much because H has done anything this week, but because of the BD anniversary and some current work/pandemic stress, and I don’t want to react out of fear or anger either. If I was ready to ask him to leave, I imagine I would want to feel absolutely calm and resolute. I’m not there yet. And, yeah, ideally I want to have a better job so that I can also feel independent and I am more prepared for the financial ramifications too. Those two things are for me.

When I can detach more from the situation, there is also something appealing to me about not affecting his path, about letting him have all responsibility for any action or inaction.

I’m feeling more and more like I’m riding a wave here, kind of like when we entered stay-at-home and I had to adjust to having H at home. Sit still and the answers will come—maybe that’s what I need.

[cardinal]

Also, I think it’s less his reaction and more that I know I have no legal way to get him to leave, so I’m not sure what good it would do to ask him when I know he won’t do it. I felt I made my feelings somewhat clearer when I said, “You are free to go if you don’t like it here.”

I am also thinking about what may said a few posts back about not making myself small in the house. I think I need to focus on that too—making sure I am taking up space and not shrinking because I am worrying about some reaction. I can continue to show that I am confident I deserve to be here as much as he does.

[DnJ]

Hello cardinal

I am anguished because I can’t understand how H has become so uncaring toward me since BD and so cold

He is in MLC. He is driven by his emotions which are cranked to 11. He is cold towards you because he can’t handle his own emotions, never mind anyone else’s.

maybe it’s more accurate to say I don’t understand how all of that just seems to increase as time goes on, as if I am actively fighting him (maybe in his view I am by not running away or playing into his apparent fantasy of a D in which he does nothing and owes nothing?).

MLCers will expend incredible resources and energies into maintaining their fantasy. They absolutely have to. The alternative is unimaginable to them - for the moment.

Of course, life, you, fate gets in the way of their illusions with bills, facts, reality, etc... For the most part, MLCers run from these pressures. And at other times they push back, seeking confrontation to be used as justifying their irrational reasoning for all this mess and destruction. In essence, trying to blame the LBS.

Leave him to his mess. Do not engage. He knows you, and know what buttons to push. He is looking for a fight. Don’t take the bait. Focus on you. Be a roommate.

Remember, his path is irrational and emotional. It will not make rational and logical sense. It can, however, be understood when viewed more from an irrational perspective and empathic lens. The compassionate indifference you are after.

A caution. Do not get too caught up in attempting to solve him. That is what is driving him crazy; he can’t figure himself out either, why he feels what he does. And by the way, he doesn’t even know what he feels. Getting too far into his mind, too fast, will drive you bonkers.

when she questioned why H didn’t leave since he wanted a D and wanted a new life, he said I could go. She asked where I would go, and he said that I could go live with my parents (states away.)

Suddenly it’s right to him that I should have to give up my life here and move in with my parents because he wants a D? It makes me feel sick to think H is feeling this way about me.

It’s interesting the little tidbits MLCers drop. The clues they spew. And sometimes the outright; but they think there are so clever, like a child thinking they are hiding when covering their eyes; blurting out of something major.

MLCers project their pain and fears upon us and others. They cannot handle it, so they project towards someone else.

H’s suggestion that you move in with your parents is actually about him. Remember this entire ride is about him, and not really about you. H is looking at, mulling over, reliving a time - about moving in or living with his parents. Something from his past is probably stirred up towards the surface. He of course cannot handle it, so he makes it about you.

As difficult as the spewing is, and his projections, this is progress for him. MLC is a twisted and slow journey. There are very few external signs with most everything happening within them.

I am having trouble getting over my disbelief that he would say and believe things like this, and that he would feel so strongly that I need to go, and not him, in the first place.

Hopefully, you can see, understand, and accept my explanation a bit more. It takes time to believe. Disbelief is powerful. By the way, don’t focus too much on what he feels. It changes all the time.

Remember - believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. This is all just words. It’s a year and H is still there.

The friend says men often get mean once they decide they want a D...

LOL.

In my experience the women gets mean. Haha.

Anyone who gets to the point where D is now their preference, for whatever reasons, is not going to be really friendly anymore.

On your thread, there’s been some discussion of seeds planted in a person. I can look back and see poor coping skills in H and unexamined anger, but I don’t see him being a “bad” person or a narcissist or the kind of person who would treat others he once loved like this... I still don’t believe at his core this is who he is. So how do I make sense of it enough to let it go? This is something I am clearly not at peace with and I have to work on it, because it puts me back in the place where my thoughts are filled with H.

How to make sense enough to let go? Compassion, empathy, indifference.

A good helping of faith doesn’t hurt either.

You don’t see H as a bad person. Looking back you can see his poor coping skills and hidden anger. Not seeing any seeds is not a problem. These seeds of MLC were planted long before you came into the picture, and they were buried deep.

It’s ok to remember the man H was and may still be deep inside. I do believe these crisis people are very lost souls. And unfortunately some never find their way back.

Do not rewrite your history. In time, perhaps you will see or feel things a bit differently. Ensure you remain accurate.

Have faith. Heal yourself. The counterintuitive advice is first and foremost for you, and gives you the best chance at restoring you marriage.

Have faith in the possibilities. Hope lives in possibilities.

Have faith in letting go and letting H walk his path. It is really the kindest and most loving thing you can do. Believe that.

I sure hope you are right, because I have been questioning whether I am still doing the right things. It is definitely counterintuitive. I so hope acceptance is around the corner.

I am proud of you cardinal. It is no easy path you walk. Questioning is wise. Follow your beliefs. And have faith. Let go and heal yourself. Stay your course, you are doing fine.

The only way I see movement on the living together end right now is if one of us files, and even then that would probably drag on. Am I missing something?

The business side of MLC does need to be addressed. One needs to ensure their financial protection and security. You sound like you are comfortable with your current finances.

We all came here looking to bust our pending divorce. I would not advocate filing unless you are being abused or need financial security and/or protection. Since I’ve never hear any concerns with either, let H do the heavy lifting. And we all know how quickly he is moving towards that.

Time is your friend and a gift. Invest it wisely. Let time work it magic upon you and H.

Focus on you. Be cordial and kind. Be a roommate. Let the MLC burn out of H. Let H grow up. You keep living and moving forward.

Imagine years from now, whatever outcome may be, you don’t want regrets. If you file, you take over the process. It becomes yours. If you ask him to leave. It’s manipulation. As I said, only for abuse or protection or such, otherwise you may regret your choice. Keep your focus on you, and dig deep for patience.

You want him to act because of his pressures not yours. Hopefully he realizes that you haven’t been doing anything, not bothering him lately (lol the MLCer’s point of view is so twisted), and yet he is still unhappy. So, therefore, his unhappiness cannot be your fault. Voila! MLCer maybe starts to look inward.

That is the LBS’s part of MLC. Being patient and a safe place to land. Our influence also extends to boundaries when they test us and disrespect us. Keep calm and cordial. MLC is not about you, ensure not to make it about you.

Finding and living compassionate indifference. You are doing fine.

D

[cardinal]

Dear DnJ, I feel like you just pushed a big reset button for me and helped me shift my perspective again, which I so needed. Thank you so much. Why is it so easy for me to keep forgetting this is not about me? Or to not believe it? H can be very convincing, I suppose.

[kml]

If finances are going to be so tight in divorce - should you be considering moving home to the folks, at least temporarily? Not right now, but would you be able to find a job at similar pay where they live? If so, you could be on much more stable financial footing . Second option - how can you get a raise at work or move into a better paying job, preferably one with health insurance?

[cardinal]

Hi, kml. Getting a roommate here to help with rent would be way more practical than my abandoning the life I’ve made here in the last thirteen years, though I do wish my parents lived in the same state or even side of the country. My current job happened before BD and was just meant to be a fun PT thing for extra money alongside PT teaching. I’ve been trying to transition into a career position somewhere and can market myself for many different fields, but it hasn’t happened yet. Still sending out applications, and though listings have slowed since the pandemic, I think they’re starting to pick up a bit again. I think persistence (and faith) will be helpful for me here!

[cardinal]

I've been reading a lot here, and trying to sort my thoughts and feelings. I'm trying to untangle them still, but I thought I would post anyway to check in, and maybe someone else has greater clarity than I do! Probably that is true.

Recently H started a convo with me, longer than we have had in a while. He asked me about work (so, so rare that he asks me anything about my life), I replied briefly, and then he spent some time telling me about the current situation at his bartending gig. I listened, empathized with some of his work issues, and asked a few follow-up questions as he talked. We talked a little about the craziness of the larger pandemic situation, and then he mentioned his mom. Another thing he rarely does now--talk about his family (the last time was in April, when he said his dad hadn't sent him a bday card). She's going somewhere with a friend that he doesn't think is safe, pandemic-wise. Reading between the lines, I'm wondering if he's a little worried about her. Even though he doesn't ever worry. He tells everyone: he's incapable of worry, of course.

I tried to be a roommate who happened to be there to listen, and then I went on with whatever I had been doing. At one time exchanges like this would have had me thinking maybe, maybe he was leaning in. That's not the case anymore, though it did, I noticed, lift my mood. Like, oh, look, a somewhat normal conversation is still possible. It also reminded me that I still have hope that at some unknown future point we will be able to talk like we used to, that I'll be able to talk with the H I knew. I was a little unsettled to be reminded of that hope.

Another day—on a TV show, two exes sit down for dinner: They broke up a few years ago, but run into each other occasionally, have the same circle of friends. This is the first time they've been alone together for an extended period of time. He asked her to dinner. They end up talking honestly about what was going on when the relationship fell apart. They've both grown, both are more self-aware. She says she was unhappy at time. He says he was depressed, doesn't know why he couldn't tell her, was building a wall.

I guessed this scene was coming, but it broke me. Such vulnerability, such growth in both of them. I thought: I will never stop waiting for this kind of conversation to happen between me and H. I could see clearly, in that moment, that even if we'd been apart for years, even if I had moved on to a life I'd never imagined for myself with someone else, somewhere in the back of my mind I would still be waiting for that exchange. For a reckoning at least, if not a reunion. Ugh. Ugh because that possibility would of course depend on H doing the work and examining/understanding his share of the responsibility in our M. Ugh because I feel like there will always be some sliver of me, even if buried, that is wanting to see what it would have been like to try with H and not simply be BD, will always be thinking this can't be how things end, he can't be a stranger forever.

So there's that. I've been thinking about boundaries and manipulation, am feeling some anger toward may's H, anguish for may having to do such a quick u-turn. (Though, may, you are a rockstar, and I just admire how you are able to sort out your own thoughts and feelings, and how you are prioritizing that.) I've been thinking about how I was at least nominally there for H when he wanted to share a few things with me this time, and I'm feeling like he must totally take that for granted, that I'm his roommate, and I may not go out of my way to talk to him anymore, but I'll be there for brief, pleasant exchanges, and I'll be there to listen if he wants to talk, I'll always be in a good mood, I'll never tell him he's being selfish or unkind, I'll never criticize the way he's living his life.

Is this the safe-place-to-land thing, or the friendly neighbor thing, or is this just me trying to be compassionate but indifferent, uninvolved in his life but still here because I live here? What am I trying to unspool? There's some discomfort. Is it still some hurt that I am willing to go on being my kind self for him, but he isn't able to do that for me, or he is, but only selectively? Hmm. I'm trying to get at something here, but I don't quite know what it is yet.

Instead of writing myself to some new understanding, I've written myself past the time when I should be feeding my sourdough starter and making dinner.

[DnJ]

Hi cardinal

I'm trying to get at something here, but I don't quite know what it is yet.

Be patient, in time, answers will present themselves.

If you push too hard for answers, you push what you seek further away.

Watch for expectations. They do sneak in... unexpectedly.

I will never stop waiting for this kind of conversation to happen between me and H. I could see clearly, in that moment, that even if we'd been apart for years, even if I had moved on to a life I'd never imagined for myself with someone else, somewhere in the back of my mind I would still be waiting for that exchange. For a reckoning at least, if not a reunion. Ugh. Ugh because that possibility would of course depend on H doing the work and examining/understanding his share of the responsibility in our M. Ugh because I feel like there will always be some sliver of me, even if buried, that is wanting to see what it would have been like to try with H and not simply be BD, will always be thinking this can't be how things end, he can't be a stranger forever.

You do have to go through this process. Sorry.

You are expecting this future conversation. It is being currently unmet and you are feeling resentment.

Let go of the timeline. Let go of expecting. Focus on your life.

Hope sounds different. Acceptance sounds different.

is this just me trying to be compassionate but indifferent

Be compassionate and indifferent, not compassionate but indifferent. Be both. And “be” not try.

When indifferent you won’t speak from those feeling of longing and wondering - “ Ugh because I feel like there will always be some sliver of me, even if buried, that is wanting to see what it would have been like to try with H and not simply be BD”. Let go. Find acceptance. You’re being dragged around.

“will always be thinking this can't be how things end, he can't be a stranger forever” - can’t? The unintended consequences of using “can’t” - in attempting to bolster hope it erodes it. Hope live in the possibilities. If you believe this can’t be how things end, that keeps you stuck. Keeps you from moving forward. Keeps you from possibilities because you can’t won’t see any others. And when you stop seeing possibilities you stop seeing hope. Expectations take over, go unmet, and resentment eats away at you.

Putting away the thinking of what can’t happen allows you to focus on what can happen.

Compassionate indifference, acceptance, sounds different:

I hope to someday have this kind of conversation between me and H. I can imagine, in that moment, even if we'd been apart for years, even if I had moved on to a life with someone else, somewhere in the back of my mind I would still be open for that exchange. For that possibility to become reality would of course depend on H doing the work and examining/understanding his share of the responsibility in our M and it’s demise. Currently, there is some part of me that would like to explore reconciliation with H and not simply be BD. For now, things are how they are. I have hope that things can change; that H won’t be a stranger forever.

cardinal, it looks like you are letting go more and more. Letting go - it’s scary, it hurts, and it doesn’t feel quite right. Counterintuitive.

I’ve reframed you’re words a bit, not to detract from your feelings, for they are valid and true. I’ve reframed because feelings are temporary. I’ve reframed to hopefully show a bit of what an indifferent and caring and hopeful view can look like.

You are on a good path - don’t fret. It does take some time. Be patient.

D

[bttrfly]

Is this the safe-place-to-land thing, or the friendly neighbor thing, or is this just me trying to be compassionate but indifferent, uninvolved in his life but still here because I live here? What am I trying to unspool? There's some discomfort. Is it still some hurt that I am willing to go on being my kind self for him, but he isn't able to do that for me, or he is, but only selectively? Hmm. I'm trying to get at something here, but I don't quite know what it is yet.

You cannot find the answers because your focal point is still external - him - rather than internal: YOU.

It's a really painful and scary thing to take the focus off of him, and put it squarely on you, but I've found that the path to healing lies in doing just that.

D has it right about expectations. They are a b!@tch. Remove any thoughts of getting anything in return. What you give out in compassion or kindness or courtesy is a gift you give yourself and those around you. It is absolutely none of your business what anyone, especially your H, does with those gifts. Would it be nice to receive it in return from the object of your compassion? Yes, but so much better to get compassion from yourself.

Put another way, loving kindness and compassion are not about indifference but about detachment, and detachment is the key to serenity.

The Buddhists know this, or there would not be a Metta practice.

Here's another clue: to excel at life, one must search for and meditate on loving kindness. the download will be there. I hope you understand what I'm saying. Keywords and google are your friend.

xoxoxo

[cardinal]

I see your reframing, D—I see how you’ve turned my expectations and my imagining them unmet into possibility. In my formulation, I thought I was removing a timeline, but there was instead the built-in assumption of the expectation not being met for a long time, or never being met. I was defeating hope instead of allowing space for it.

I partly blame the magic of good storytelling—character development, dialogue, etc—because I felt I was suddenly watching my dream happen to me and not me, real and unreal, on the screen. That feeling of longing was overwhelming. It rolled through my body, and in a split second I imagined reliving that same feeling in ten years, twenty, etc. I was both imagining possibility and at the same time spending energy foreclosing it.

I see how your edits instead make room for possibility, because who am I to say what could or could not happen?

I see this and understand it intellectually. I still feel, however, more—not so much resentment around this issue at the moment, I don’t think, but pain. Sadness. Fear too, that we won’t speak in this way again. It’s still there. Better to be open to the possibilities life may bring. Maybe this is the depression stage speaking! I do need to reframe my outlook.

I think there is some stirred-up resentment around the BD anniversary too, because what Scout wrote on May’s thread resonated with me:

You don’t have to be ‘in love’ with someone to refrain from destroying their life. ‘I love you but I’m not in love with you’ has no place in discussions of infidelity. If for whatever reason they love you and still want to leave you, they would do so in a way that did not hurt you. With honesty, with integrity, with regret, with sadness, with respect. With a fair settlement and custody arrangement in acknowledgement and reparation for reneging on their sacred commitment.

I don’t know if H has been with anyone else, but even putting that aside, it does disappoint me that H can’t show integrity, regret, sadness, and respect. And he seems to think he is leaving in a way that doesn’t hurt me (?). Here I suppose I’m running into expectations again, thinking he would approach things rationally when he is not. And he doesn’t have the best coping tools, so he’s probably doing his best. Is continuously reminding myself of this one way to recognize and let go of my expectations? Sometimes I get stuck feeling like I’m making excuses for him and not giving enough weight to my own feelings.

Bttrfly—I understand what you’re saying! Thank you. I need to check your thread for any chicken updates. I’m missing my garden meditation time since work has started again and I need to make more time for it. Thank you too for the reminder of the true nature of compassion and kindness. Now I’m wondering: How have I taken this detour in my path toward detachment? I think my focus has shifted more toward H lately because 1) BD anniversary has me reflecting and some days reliving that time a little; 2) I have been trying to understand some of H’s past behaviors in our R and how they affected me, so that I know what I won’t accept in a new R with him or anyone, and so that I can put down some of the blame that is not mine to carry; 3) I’ve been trying to figure out what I’m feeling in regards to H’s behavior now and if it’s a signal that I need to create or enforce a boundary. It seems accurate to say if I focus again on just myself, this last point will dissolve.

I think all this is tied to my ongoing acceptance that no matter who he was in the past or could be in the future, he is not someone who is a partner to me right now.

Now, I’m going to go spend some time with plants before work. My happy place. Thank you both for your guidance!