Moving On

[IronWill]

Alison - One hundred percent agree.

[scout12]

Scout-- I am positive he got hooked back into OW because she decided to text him to say she's moving on, oh and by the way slept with someone etc. it was all such an obvious ploy. But not to worry, H got her hooked right back up as plan A. I almost feel sorry for her. I mean everything else aside-- he's been in a relationship with her for two and a half years, she's thrown ultimatums right and left, still hasn't gotten what she wants, and is now saying she'll give up having children in order to be with him, since he adamantly does not want more.

My point with that PS remark was that H knows you are still available because you’ve yet to enforce any consequences for his behaviour. I don’t think he truly believes that you’ll ever file for divorce. And that’s why he continues to push and push and push the limits and string you along and refuse to make a decision. Because you’ve shown him that you’ll wait indefinitely for him to choose you.

If he leaves, you’re done - that’s a great boundary. Forgive me if you’ve already answered this, but if he won’t move out, won’t file for divorce, and continues his affair - which is what he’s done so far without any consequences - what’s your plan?

[may22]

Scout, you’re right on this. He knows to his core that I’m not going to be the one to file.

On your question... last time, I set a six week deadline for him to make up his mind (after I learned it was more than an EA) and we went to discernment counseling. I don’t really feel up to another six weeks of this $hit. I guess I need to plan this out too. What do I want, how long will I live like this, how can I work through telling people and starting the whole process of S. (I’m reading the posts you shared from chump lady.... wow. )

I’m overwhelmed again with anger and frustration. I need to figure out how to focus on what I can control.

[Pommy99]

He said he felt like he needed to experience an R with AP and fail in order to let her go. That the only way he felt he could rededicate himself to the M was to try to be with her. Otherwise he would always hold onto her in his head. I said, then go. That is your decision. And he went right back to it needing to be something we decided together. I also pointed out that there isn't really a good chance to test our an R with her in any short period of time. She'd have to move across the country which wouldn't happen for months and him sitting in the basement having phone sex with her while eating meals up here wasn't exactly test-driving his R with her-- it was continued cake-eating. (He actually brought up on his own that he knows wanting both is having his cake and eating it too, so now I can say it to him! ha!) He acknowledged the truth of this. That he'd have to really give it his all with her and that I wouldn't be waiting around. He did poke around a little at this... well, what if you were possibly still interested, there maybe would be a chance for us at that point... I was like, no. Leaving me for another woman is the end of us. Sorry.

Ugh May, he's a mess! WTF sleep with her occasionaly! I can tell you are a highly intelligent woman, how did you end up with such a dumba$$

As well as fall out of love with her, he needs to fall in love with you. He needs to lose you. Look what happened when he thought he was losing her, that she might not be there anymore? At the moment, he knows you are there holding on, with your D and relationship books, etc, he knows where you stand. Now is a great time for him to live his life without you guys. During quarantine. Leaving a family for a mistress whom he cant see might help him get some perspective about what he's holding out for.

Hugs May...been thinking about you heaps!

[AlisonUK]

What do I want, how long will I live like this, how can I work through telling people and starting the whole process of S. (I’m reading the posts you shared from chump lady.... wow. )

I’m overwhelmed again with anger and frustration. I need to figure out how to focus on what I can control.

These are the right questions, May.

When you answer them, deal with the reality of what is. Use clear and direct language for yourself about the facts of the situation.

Do you want to be married to a man who desires regular masturbation sessions on the phone with his mistress from the privacy of the basement in the house where he's raising his children?

Do you want an open marriage?

Do you want to tolerate an in-house separation?

Do you want to pretend you want some or all of these things long enough to get your contracting business up and running?

Do you want to share personal and financial information with your husband right now?

Do you want to share a bed with him? Meals with him? Do you want to receive affectionate touches from him - knowing the clear facts of the situation as they stand?

Do you want a sexual relationship with a man in a sexual relationship with someone else?


When you have your hands full with your H's business, you are neglecting a proper address to these questions. You might not know the answers to any of them right now, or for a good while yet. That's fine. Your husband doesn't get to answer these questions for you, nor does he get to rush your answer, or critique your answer, or get you to deal with any emotions he has about the answers, or lack of answers.

Care for yourself like a precious piece of fine china - because you are - and your anger is a sign that your boundaries are being breeched and action needs taking. Self-care first. Then boundaries. Then forgiveness - not towards your H but towards yourself (I think you told me this on my thread a long time ago, and I have been thinking about it ever since, and working on it a lot.)

[SteveLW]

Thanks Scout, SamCal, WLMC. I'm spinning today and really appreciate the postings.

Looking from the outside, and I’m not sure if you see this too, every conversation seems incredibly manipulative on your H’s part. It’s not fair to unload his bad feelings onto you. Him asking you to make this decision together is bullsh*t. It’s a way to absolve himself of the guilt and responsibility for creating this situation. Him asking for your blessing and forgiveness is f*cking crazy-making and nowhere near the realm of normality. It’s wrong. It’s emotional abuse.

I completely agree that his behavior is unfair and wrong. I'm not sure I am onboard where I am right now with the term emotional abuse or that he's being purposefully manipulative, though I understand it looks that way. Maybe this is something i'll be able to see with more distance. I know he is coming from a place of hurt and fear and desperation too, scared to lose me and the kids, scared to lose our house and his reputation, scared to lose his chance at happiness/true love with AP. He is paralyzed by fear of loss on both sides and keeps teeter-tottering back and forth between wanting to stay and wanting to go. He wants me to absolve him of guilt and tell him it's OK, he can have his cake and eat it too for the rest of his life. That he doesn't actually have to choose, ever. He can have both me as his friend and her as his lover.

You need to get onboard with this. He IS being emotionally abusive. And he is being purposely manipulative. Do not give him a pass on that behavior. One of the things I see with LBSs, and LBWs in particular, is the tendency to go into denial about their WAS's bad behavior. You cannot argue with facts. The fact is that he is a lying cheater. Say it with me: "HE IS A LYING CHEATER!" SO many LBWs struggle with that. And take all the blame on themselves. "I drove him into the arms of another woman!"

That is so illogical! Think about the amount of time and energy it takes to lie, cheat, and be manipulative. If lying cheaters put HALF that energy into improving their marriages then their marriages would improve.

The truth you have to face May is that HE WANTED to cheat. No other way to say it. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that isn't the case, but "for better and for worse" means for better and for worse. It doesn't mean "or unless my W is less than a perfect W, then I am bailing and nailing the first chippy that will have me!" WASs that lie and cheat always blame their LBS. The LBS should avoid the temptation to blame themselves too. While marital problems are always the result of poor behavior in the MR on both spouses part...NOTHING..NOTHING justifies lying and cheating. NOTHING. Let me repeat that: NOTHING JUSTIFIES LYING AND CHEATING.

[SamCal-- yes, exactly what you said too. He wants this to be a joint decision, or better yet, blame me for being the one to hurt the kids because I'm not willing to be friends with him after we split. Also, AP doesn't want to feel like we Ded because of her (I also think he wants this narrative, that we split up because of problems between us, not because of her), and also AP is totally playing into his fantasy and telling him exactly what he wants to hear, that she is totally fine with him being part of the family with me so now I'm the only unreasonable one. No. Sorry, no.

Typical WAS behavior. "Hey, you do all the hard work of actually leaving my family and Ding. I will just go off and enjoy the physical pleasure of doinking my cupcake." The question is, are you going to let him get away with that?

I wish he was just saying he wanted a D. It would be so much easier if he was the one packing his bags and walking out the door. He spews all this stuff about how he loves me, he will always love me (just not like that), he wants to take care of me for the rest of my life, he wants to mow the lawn and help me start my business and drive me around when I'm old and blind. I wish he would just stop. I guess I need to just walk away. It is so hurtful to hear these things from him, because I always believed that was all true... and also that he wasn't going to leave me for another woman. And I wish he had just walked away in January instead of going through all this rigamarole the last four months.

SO take the decision out of his hands. Stop letting him cake eat. You do that by hiring a lawyer, filing for D. And moving on. Doing that WILL NOT prevent him from Ring if that is what he decides to do.

And stop wishing for things you cannot control. Take control. Tell him the cake eating ends now. Not by actually telling him it ends now, but by taking the action above. Once he is served D papers the reality will hit him smack in the fac that May22 has had it and isn't taking it anymore!!

I bought the chump lady book last night and started reading it. I do love love love her.

I had a long conversation with my friend this afternoon and she gave me a lot of strength to start focusing on what I can control, and to release what I can't. What I want isn't possible right now. Now I need to pull myself together and start working on Plan B and what that looks like for me. Finances, job, children, etc. I just called to make an appointment with an IC to help me in this process.

xxx thanks for being there for me

I tell LBWs that are struggling with how to proceed with a lying cheating H that is trying to cake eat all the time. Imagine you are your friend....looking at your situation objectively. What would you as your friend to you to do? Sit and continue to struggle while he is out sleeping with an OW? Or would you tell her to take her power back and kick the loser to the curb, file for D, and get on with their life making it awsome from here on it? LIfe is too short to sit and wait for a lying cheater.

Understand May, I give advice differently to LBSs that have a WWs that is actively rubbing a PA in their face. This kind of WAS requires a tougher hand. Love them? Sure. But love yourself more! You are allowing this behavior out of fear, NOT out of love. LBWs get that mixed up all the time. "I love him so much that I am willing to stand by him while he goes off and screws other women!"

That ain't love. Ask yourself, would you have still married him knowing at some point later on he'd cheat on you? OF COURSE NOT. So why tolerate it after marriage?

And what are you teaching your kids about how a spouse should treat them? Kids will follow in your footsteps here. How would you want your children to handle a lying cheating spouse?

[wooba]

May, I don’t have anything else to add but just wanna send you some virtual hugs. I can’t imagine how you’re feeling right now. I think you’ve got probably all the 2x4s you need here to move forward. Is it possible to arrange someone to take the kids for a day or two (other than H) while you process all of this? You gotta get your ducks in a row. You’ve done it before, you can do it again.

You gotta focus on you. I understand what you said about knowing that H is in pain too etc. but you can’t be responsible for his issues. Your life can’t go down with him because he’s suffering. You have your life, and your daughters’ lives to think about. You can have compassion for him but at the same time decide that you don’t want to be a part of this charade.

[may22]

Steve, thanks for commenting... I appreciate it.

I do think this would all be easier if she lived here instead of 5,000 miles away. He actually isn't screwing her and hasn't for months. (Not that he doesn't want to.) I am frustrated that he made a choice to break it off and lasted four months, then totally backslid. I was re-reading my threads and journals and I was in a much better and more detached/prepared place in Feb than I am right now for all of this.

This would be sooooooo much easier if she lived here, because (a) he'd have somewhere to go and would actually be motivated to leave and (b) I'd be insane with fury. Maybe because it is long distance and they have barely seen each other IRL this entire time, it doesn't feel totally real to me. Easier for me to dismiss as a fantasy. The part that fills me with anger is the idea of him actually walking out the door and breaking up the family. Telling the children.

I don't fault myself. He made these choices to cheat and lie. I did not. I can have some empathy for the place he was in when it began and take my own responsibility for my part in that. But I don't blame myself. I absolutely agree-- nothing justifies lying and cheating, as much as my H wants to think so.

We talked about him moving out this morning. He is continuing to refuse. His idea is to move to the office or the basement. I said I didn't think he could fully experience what it would be like to be S and what an R with AP would look like in either place, also that it would be incredibly painful for me. He doesn't buy this. He doesn't believe that I won't get over this and magically be his best friend once I get over the initial shock of him leaving me for another woman.

He says I can't make him leave. I said I will file for D. He said he'll fight me for the house. It got nasty fast. I discontinued it. I told him I found a studio apartment for a decent price, which sparked his interest briefly and then he dismissed as "must be a $hithole" because of the price. Should I lay out what it might look like and be acceptable for me if he lives down here? From some things he said this morning, I think he thinks he can move down here and people won't know about the A or even that we're really S. But I see this as a total half-a$$ed move towards S, total cake-eating, with a veeeery long time frame before they get to a point where she'd MO here and he'd get a place with her, with him not really experiencing the loss of the MR and me not being able to heal.

Anyway. I told him this morning he knows what I think, my boundaries have not changed, I don't want to talk to him about it any more.

Thanks Alison, wooba, pommy... will write more later. xx

[AlisonUK]

He says I can't make him leave. I said I will file for D. He said he'll fight me for the house. It got nasty fast. I discontinued it. I told him I found a studio apartment for a decent price, which sparked his interest briefly and then he dismissed as "must be a $hithole" because of the price. Should I lay out what it might look like and be acceptable for me if he lives down here? From some things he said this morning, I think he thinks he can move down here and people won't know about the A or even that we're really S. But I see this as a total half-a$$ed move towards S, total cake-eating, with a veeeery long time frame before they get to a point where she'd MO here and he'd get a place with her, with him not really experiencing the loss of the MR and me not being able to heal.

He is right, you can't make him leave. He knows that you want him to. If he was willing to, he'd be capable of looking out house listings and making arrangements for himself, so I wouldn't do anything more there. Just as he can't talk you into an open marriage, you're not going to be able to talk him into leaving.

Him saying he'll fight you for the house? He's trying to make you afraid as a way of getting you to do what is best for him rather than what is best for you. It's manipulative. See it clearly for what it is, stop having conversations and, when you are ready, take action.

That action might be stone cold Going Dark. It might be seeing a lawyer. It might be taking the kids and moving to your family for a while. It might be getting very public about what he is doing, what he is asking of you (for you to tolerate him occasionally having sex with his mistress and masturbating on the phone with her in the basement) and the fact that you have told him no. It might be you just do nothing except focus entirely on yourself, listening to your anger and getting really close to the reality of what is happening for as long as you see fit.

You have total control over what you do next, and if you take the energy you are spending on working him out, working out his next move, imagining things being different or convincing him to do or not do something, you are going to have so much more for yourself. When you make a decision, make it for yourself - not to get anything from him, or protect him, or get a consequence for him.

I don't think you should lay anything out for him. You don't have a negotiating power on getting him out of the house, or controlling how be behaves when he's in the house. He might if he's scared enough, blow some smoke and agree to some terms for a while, but you already know he is a liar and a cheat and is not able to make clear decisions. I would disregard pretty much everything he says and sit tight until you work out what is in yours and the kids best interests. What is acceptable to you in terms of a separation might not be in your control, you might change your mind about that, you might find what you thought was acceptable to you turns out not to be. There's no rush to do anything except get yourself out of his business and him out of yours.

I admire you May. I think you are doing so well. You have totally got this.

[may22]

He is right, you can't make him leave. He knows that you want him to. If he was willing to, he'd be capable of looking out house listings and making arrangements for himself, so I wouldn't do anything more there. Just as he can't talk you into an open marriage, you're not going to be able to talk him into leaving.

You're right. This is more of my boundaries sliding.

Him saying he'll fight you for the house? He's trying to make you afraid as a way of getting you to do what is best for him rather than what is best for you. It's manipulative. See it clearly for what it is, stop having conversations and, when you are ready, take action.

I hadn't seen this until you said it. You are right.

It might be you just do nothing except focus entirely on yourself, listening to your anger and getting really close to the reality of what is happening for as long as you see fit.

This is resonating with me. I need to do this. I'm still not here yet. I feel I did make progress in this space last time around, but a lot of how I did that was by physically separating myself-- going to yoga, going out with friends, all things I can't really do right now with the quarantine. I need to figure out how to make this space for myself in this current situation.

You have total control over what you do next, and if you take the energy you are spending on working him out, working out his next move, imagining things being different or convincing him to do or not do something, you are going to have so much more for yourself. When you make a decision, make it for yourself - not to get anything from him, or protect him, or get a consequence for him.

I've gotten out of this space before. I need to do it again. Back in January, I was able to just let it go... though I was still being passive, letting him have the power to make the decision and my choices would flow from there. I am less uncomfortable now with the idea of the children and splitting up than I was back then. Hopefully that will help me to feel I have more options and control over my own destiny.

I don't think you should lay anything out for him. You don't have a negotiating power on getting him out of the house, or controlling how be behaves when he's in the house. He might if he's scared enough, blow some smoke and agree to some terms for a while, but you already know he is a liar and a cheat and is not able to make clear decisions. I would disregard pretty much everything he says and sit tight until you work out what is in yours and the kids best interests. What is acceptable to you in terms of a separation might not be in your control, you might change your mind about that, you might find what you thought was acceptable to you turns out not to be. There's no rush to do anything except get yourself out of his business and him out of yours.

Thank you so much, Alison. This also is very helpful. You're right. I don't have any negotiating power. I have no control over his actions or thoughts or words. I think today I'll try to spend some more time on boundaries and what is safe and healthy for me at this moment, such that I can have the space I need to work out what is in the best interests of me and the girls going forward.

I am filled with gratitude for you, for scout, wayfinder, bluwave, pommy, wooba, cardinal, sage, ironwill, unchien, steve, cw... I know I'm missing some of you too and just know I have so much gratitude and love in my heart for all of you right now.