Scout and Sam nailed it. Enough of his charade. You have been strong and done all you can. He seems to be deep in the tunnel and it's time he gets what he's asking for, except it will be done on YOUR terms. Your H reminds me of my W. They want out, but don't want to be "blamed" for any of the carnage that will be created. It simply doesn't work that way.
Thanks Scout, SamCal, WLMC. I'm spinning today and really appreciate the postings.
Originally Posted by Scout12
Looking from the outside, and I’m not sure if you see this too, every conversation seems incredibly manipulative on your H’s part. It’s not fair to unload his bad feelings onto you. Him asking you to make this decision together is bullsh*t. It’s a way to absolve himself of the guilt and responsibility for creating this situation. Him asking for your blessing and forgiveness is f*cking crazy-making and nowhere near the realm of normality. It’s wrong. It’s emotional abuse.
I completely agree that his behavior is unfair and wrong. I'm not sure I am onboard where I am right now with the term emotional abuse or that he's being purposefully manipulative, though I understand it looks that way. Maybe this is something i'll be able to see with more distance. I know he is coming from a place of hurt and fear and desperation too, scared to lose me and the kids, scared to lose our house and his reputation, scared to lose his chance at happiness/true love with AP. He is paralyzed by fear of loss on both sides and keeps teeter-tottering back and forth between wanting to stay and wanting to go. He wants me to absolve him of guilt and tell him it's OK, he can have his cake and eat it too for the rest of his life. That he doesn't actually have to choose, ever. He can have both me as his friend and her as his lover.
SamCal-- yes, exactly what you said too. He wants this to be a joint decision, or better yet, blame me for being the one to hurt the kids because I'm not willing to be friends with him after we split. Also, AP doesn't want to feel like we Ded because of her (I also think he wants this narrative, that we split up because of problems between us, not because of her), and also AP is totally playing into his fantasy and telling him exactly what he wants to hear, that she is totally fine with him being part of the family with me so now I'm the only unreasonable one. No. Sorry, no.
I wish he was just saying he wanted a D. It would be so much easier if he was the one packing his bags and walking out the door. He spews all this stuff about how he loves me, he will always love me (just not like that), he wants to take care of me for the rest of my life, he wants to mow the lawn and help me start my business and drive me around when I'm old and blind. I wish he would just stop. I guess I need to just walk away. It is so hurtful to hear these things from him, because I always believed that was all true... and also that he wasn't going to leave me for another woman. And I wish he had just walked away in January instead of going through all this rigamarole the last four months.
I bought the chump lady book last night and started reading it. I do love love love her.
I had a long conversation with my friend this afternoon and she gave me a lot of strength to start focusing on what I can control, and to release what I can't. What I want isn't possible right now. Now I need to pull myself together and start working on Plan B and what that looks like for me. Finances, job, children, etc. I just called to make an appointment with an IC to help me in this process.
xxx thanks for being there for me
Last edited by may22; 06/17/2001:56 AM.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I wish he was just saying he wanted a D. It would be so much easier if he was the one packing his bags and walking out the door. He spews all this stuff about how he loves me, he will always love me (just not like that), he wants to take care of me for the rest of my life, he wants to mow the lawn and help me start my business and drive me around when I'm old and blind. I wish he would just stop. I guess I need to just walk away. It is so hurtful to hear these things from him, because I always believed that was all true... and also that he wasn't going to leave me for another woman. And I wish he had just walked away in January instead of going through all this rigamarole the last four months.
Dude, this. He doesn't want to shoulder the responsibility of his own decisions alone. This is total BS on his part. Like, is he saying all of this to alleviate his massive guilt for doing all of this? I am so sorry that you are going through this. If he cannot get it together, he should not have the privilege of continuing to be in your life to do those things - because that is a privilege! He needs to exist in the echo chamber of his own guilt and not continue to assuage it by saying this crap to you. It's hurtful, and doesn't benefit anyone. It is crazy making. He needs to sit with it, and live with it, and I don't know if he can do that when you're in the picture - and more importantly, it's not fair to you to have to put up with it. And fortunately, you don't have to put up with it unless you choose to. I know there are trappings/logistics and that is easier said than done, but that is the core of it.
(Sidebar: Also, rolling my eyes at AP saying she doesn't want to be the reason you D....uh yeah, because that's somehow worse than being a side piece?)
I am glad you come here for support and have also IRL friends for support and IC never hurts. Hugs to you, and I wish I could take you out for drinks.
I do apologise if calling it emotional abuse was a step too far. I was so frustrated reading your post. Only you can decide if that’s what it is or not. Nevertheless, I still believe that taking space from your H will help you get some clarity.
Try googling ‘chump lady he can’t decide’ and ‘chump lady he loves me’.
Big, big, big hugs to you.
PS. It just occurred to me that H’s renewed interest in OW is probably because she has made herself unavailable and seems to be moving on. Take from that what you will. We all want what we can’t have.
May - I agree with others that this is now shading into emotional abuse. He is continually hooking you into conversations that you have clearly said you don't want to have. He is making you responsible for the impact his choices and acts of deception and infidelity are having on the children. He is manipulating your love and care for your children and for him.
When it comes to abuse, intention doesn't matter. I don't doubt the guy has good qualities and that he is coming from a place of depression, hurt and desperation. It doesn't matter. If he stands on you to get himself out of the fire he has himself created, it might be understandable, but he's still standing on you, it still hurts, and it still isn't your job.
I would refuse to have these conversations with him. You've said what you want to say, you've said you don't want to talk about it anymore, and any other processing can be done between lawyers or between him and his IC.
If you do have to talk about it, change your language. This is an affair and he he asking you not only to discuss his feeling about his mistress with him but he's also asking you to tolerate an open marriage while he road-tests a sexual relationship with his mistress, after having already given you one sexually transmitted disease. These are harsh words but they are true and in not using them you're only protecting him from the truth of his own behaviour.
I would save your engergy. You can't talk him out of an affair, and he can't talk you into an open marriage or into giving your blessing. His attempts to do so ARE manipulative and abusive and your duty now is to put an end to the aspects of this situation you can control.
Phrases I've found useful in my own marriage right now and in the past include:
'I see this is important to you. Nevertheless, I can't help you with it so I am going to go out for a walk now.'
'I understand what you want from me. I am saying that I don't want to do that. I appreciate that is disappointing. I'll give you some space to process.'
'I know we've talked about this before, several times. I think this is one of those things that we're going to have to agree to differ on. You will have to do what you think is best, as will I, and I don't think discussing it further is going to help either of us.'
'You've already had my answer on that. If I change my mind I will tell you, but in the meantime, I am asking you to respect me by not trying to talk me round to your way of thinking.'
Any decent husband would be protective of his wife. Not attempting to wear her down through manipulative conversations to accept and approve of a situation that is causing her actual emotional pain, harming her well being, and which in the past has given her a physical infection. THAT is why his behaviour is abuse. He is trying to talk you into doing something that you know, and anyone would agree, would be hurtful to you. This man is not your friend or your prime protector and defender. This is why boundaries are so necessary now.
OK, this may not be what you need to hear right now, but I felt this way on my sitch and watched it with Pommy too.
If there was not a shadow of a doubt that he loved and wanted to be with AP, he would already have been there, with her. Now. But he’s not. He’s living in a home with you, vacillating between you and her. He is telling you it’s because of the girls, or because he wants to support you, or because he wants the two of you to decide when and how the marriage ends. But the reality is that he can’t make up his mind because he loves both of you. And wants what both of you have to offer him. Which is crazy and fantastical, which he knows deep down, so he is putting you in an untenable situation so YOU can decide for HIM.
So, don’t.
Move forward with your own plan b (D), arm yourself with all your options, empower yourself with pathways a, b and c lined up emotionally, psychically, and physically so you can pull the trigger for any of them on your own terms. Pivot the power into your own hands with whatever tools necessary.
Then wait. Because I may be innocent and naive and a fool for love, but I believe that if it is truly over, he will take whatever steps necessary to end it and move on to his new partner. He wouldn’t NEED you as his BFF. He wouldn’t care what you think or how you two navigate co-parenting and whatever conscious uncoupling fantasy dream he has. He would be out and it would have already have happened. FFS, it’s been nearly 3 years!!! That’s probably longer than you two dated before you got married. He has had AMPLE time to GTFO on your marriage and make a happy family of two with OW. He wants your blessing because he isn’t sure of his choice. If he was, he wouldn’t need you to tell him so.
H and I have had some intense conversations over the past 12 hours. And the resounding message is that because I refused to believe, acknowledge or buy the ‘new’ him he was trying to sell me, cracks started to appear in his fantastical facade. And as those cracks got bigger, the truth of his feelings for me and the life we had built together started to shine through. For him, internally. Which eventually led to him realizing what a terrible mistake he was making, not for me or the kids, but for him personally.
I was not a perfect DBer. I begged and cried and reasoned with every ounce of my psycho-analytical prowess. But according to H, what changed it for him was feeling me detach over the past few weeks, giving him the space to feel everything (instead of him fighting my logic) and truly recognizing that the decision was up to him and only he could calculate his personal loss. And more importantly, that I was going to move forward with D on my own timeline, that I wasn’t going to wait any longer for his ‘come to Jesus’ moment.
So, stay true to you. Hold the line, create the boundaries and stay firm in your resolve to 1) not facilitate or approve of his exit; 2) that you will NOT be friends with him or AP post-divorce; 3) that the collateral damage is ALL on him for ever more; 4) that you have a limit on what you can take as a sane human and that he is precariously close to the edge; and 5) that you will not tolerate any discussion about his feelings towards AP ever, ever, ever.
I think it's a good idea to take space, and a lot of it. That's what I did when my sit was spiralling- sort of like cocooning yourself to protect yourself.
Try to get away from H as much as possible. Try not to talk about anything other than logistics and the kids. When he veers into chaotic territory or wants to talk about AP - politely but firmly shut it down. "I do not want to talk about AP". If he persists - leave the room or the house for awhile if you can.
Take this time for youself - figure out what it is YOU want to do. What H wants to do right now is irrelevant. He is crashing and burning - let him crash and burn.
Thanks so much SamCal, Alison, Sage, Scout, IW. All this is really helping.
SamCal-- yes, drinks! And you're totally right that he has been making all the decisions on his own so far. It is all just a mechanism to relieve his own guilt, and/or put me in a position such that it makes me the bad guy for not wanting to keep hanging out as friends after we D.
Alison-- I didn't get an STD from him, but I did go get a full panel to be sure of it. He also tested clean. BUT it could have happened as he did have unprotected sex with her, so not giving any actual credit here.
I am copying over the stock phrases you gave (Scout, I already put yours on my phone) and and will practice them-- they are golden.
Scout-- I am positive he got hooked back into OW because she decided to text him to say she's moving on, oh and by the way slept with someone etc. it was all such an obvious ploy. But not to worry, H got her hooked right back up as plan A. I almost feel sorry for her. I mean everything else aside-- he's been in a relationship with her for two and a half years, she's thrown ultimatums right and left, still hasn't gotten what she wants, and is now saying she'll give up having children in order to be with him, since he adamantly does not want more.
Sage, I really appreciate everything you're saying. I think there is truth to it for sure. That being said, I also believe he is terrified of losing the trappings of our M-- house, finances, reputation, etc, and is terrified of doing something that will harm the children. I do think he is in love with the AP and doesn't believe he can fall "in love" with me again. I think what he has with her is very intense and they have built all these fairy plans of being together forever, unlike your H and his EAP... so I think the tug of her is a lot stronger in my sitch, plus he feels guilty about hurting her. So I don't know that a few weeks of detaching is going to do the trick here.
Tonight, we talked a bit (I think I did a much better job at holding my boundaries, though we did talk about what is going on) and I mentioned his three factors in making the decision to break it off with her in February. He stopped me and said, you can't discount the depth of my love for you. I was like huh? He actually does have quite a bit of clarity around the fact that he wants us both. Tonight he asked why can't we just stay married and he sleeps with her occasionally. ??? I was like, that isn't what she wants, right? She wants to be in the open? So she'd be like your mistress? And he said, yeah! I can't tell if he was joking. But yet again, soooo far in fantasy land.
Also, you and your H had actually S so he had some time to really think of what life would be like without you, went as far as leasing the house, and then freaked out. My H hasn't taken any of those steps yet and I think they need to be taken if he is to ever actually experience or realize what life is like being S from your W. However, he isn't prepared to even take those steps without my agreement. So we are kind of at a stalemate at the moment.
So, I have started to pull myself together somewhat. I started working on finances again-- needed to get a spreadsheet from him which freaked him out. Just like last time. He keeps coming over to see what I'm doing on the computer or my phone and I close it down. Tonight he said, it seems really shady what you're doing. Every time I come over you close a window and put down your phone. (haha, because it is this site in a private window!!) he thinks I'm researching D. I showed him the spreadsheets and said it wasn't meant to be shady. But I need to keep working on this, plans b, c, and d, and be ready to move forward when I think the time is right.
Tonight I told him I no longer wanted to hear about just how much he loves AP any more. That it is hurtful and unnecessary, especially if we are going to split up. He respected this for the most part, though I had to stop him a few times.
He said he felt like he needed to experience an R with AP and fail in order to let her go. That the only way he felt he could rededicate himself to the M was to try to be with her. Otherwise he would always hold onto her in his head. I said, then go. That is your decision. And he went right back to it needing to be something we decided together. I also pointed out that there isn't really a good chance to test our an R with her in any short period of time. She'd have to move across the country which wouldn't happen for months and him sitting in the basement having phone sex with her while eating meals up here wasn't exactly test-driving his R with her-- it was continued cake-eating. (He actually brought up on his own that he knows wanting both is having his cake and eating it too, so now I can say it to him! ha!) He acknowledged the truth of this. That he'd have to really give it his all with her and that I wouldn't be waiting around. He did poke around a little at this... well, what if you were possibly still interested, there maybe would be a chance for us at that point... I was like, no. Leaving me for another woman is the end of us. Sorry.
Sage/Pommy, another interesting thing-- he said to me specifically that he didn't make the decision in Feb. to work on the MR. He felt he made the decision to end his A, which was different. Another reason why we are where we are right now, I think, and also different from your Hs (in a good way for you guys).
Alison, the boundaries discussion helped a lot today. Thank you. I could see when I stated my boundary-- don't want to hear about AP, he needs to make this decision on his own and I won't help him, I won't be friends with you in this scenario-- he would argue them--WHY can't we be friends for the girls, WHY would it bother you so much that I was with her, and I could feel myself getting drawn into it. I wasn't very successful at NOT getting drawn in but at least was recognizing it when it happened, and I was able to catch myself part of the time-- it isn't fair of you to ask that of me, I'm sorry I can't tell you what you want to hear, I'm just sharing how I feel and it is okay if you don't agree. That at this point I'm going to be working on how to protect myself as we move forward.
He's still wearing his ring and sleeping in the MB. He had proposed moving to the office, to which I said ok, but then he didn't actually do it and I haven't felt like making a big deal out of it one way or the other. TBH, I have felt like in the past he has slept in the office specifically in order to be able to tell AP he has done so, like he's taking a solid step towards MO. I decided this can be yet another small decision he gets to own if he wants to move in that direction.
So my plan is to continue to focus on my own needs and plans and detach, detach, detach. It feels easier this time around but still HARD. Live my boundaries. I am OK at the moment talking about what is going on to some degree. Tonight, it was interesting when I put the kibosh on talking about his R with AP, he turned more towards talking about our R, how he felt about the SSM, how in love with me he had been, how much those years had hurt him. Not in a blame-y way but that he wasn't sure he could get over that, and he also didn't think he could forgive himself for what he had done to me with the A. Those two things, and the fact that he didn't believe he could fall in love with me again or out of love with AP made it seem like he should choose her. I said OK, do it. And he still refused. I know I'm supposed to be detaching but I'm just frustrated that we had just started talking about US, our R, the last couple of weeks, including these two giant issues between us, rather than having all the attention focused on the A.... and he ran. I guess I just need to see this as yet another reason why he can't be a good H to me right now or maybe ever.
Maybe I'll suggest to him that he take a solo camping trip, or something, so that we can both have some space.
Last edited by may22; 06/17/2010:28 AM.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Alison, the boundaries discussion helped a lot today. Thank you. I could see when I stated my boundary-- don't want to hear about AP, he needs to make this decision on his own and I won't help him, I won't be friends with you in this scenario-- he would argue them--WHY can't we be friends for the girls, WHY would it bother you so much that I was with her, and I could feel myself getting drawn into it. I wasn't very successful at NOT getting drawn in but at least was recognizing it when it happened, and I was able to catch myself part of the time-- it isn't fair of you to ask that of me, I'm sorry I can't tell you what you want to hear, I'm just sharing how I feel and it is okay if you don't agree. That at this point I'm going to be working on how to protect myself as we move forward. l
What might help here is if you think of boundaries as something you do with your body as well as your words. You don't explain your boundaries, or convince someone not to breech them, or make threats or anything like that. You don't even need to tell him what your boundaries are.
I think you are explaining yourself an awful lot to him, which just sends him the message that he has a right to this explanation - and the constant self-defence must be exhausting.
ACT OUT your boundaries. A good answer to why questions is 'I don't care to get into that right now. I know this is disappointing and I will leave you alone to process.' LEAVE THE ROOM.
My husband is really really good at hooking me into to defending myself.
'Don't you think it's pretty awful you're not even willing to discuss this?' is a very good one from him.
Then I leap in and try to defend myself from being seen as 'awful'.
What works better is if I reframe awful, keep the boundary, then get out of the room.
'I know my saying no to this conversation feels awful to you.' (See - it's an emotional experience he's having that I validate, not a judgement about who I am as a person...) 'Nevertheless, I don't want to discuss this. You do whatever you think is best.'
I hope this helps. I am sharing this as it's basically all I spoke about with my counsellor for months and I am sure it has as much to do with ending the emotionally manipulative behaviour from me, and the emotionally and verbally abusive behaviour from my H - as anything else. I don't need to weep and cry and guilt trip him into being respectful to me. He can be respectful to me or not according to his own abilities and best judgement. I'm only in the room with someone being respectful.
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Maybe I'll suggest to him that he take a solo camping trip, or something, so that we can both have some space.
This is you doing his work and getting in his business again. If you need space, go for the solo camping trip yourself, or get better at leaving the room when he's dumping his business on you. Don't suggest anything to him. He needs to figure out this on his own.
