Cardinal, it was a chocolate layer cake (baked by my D8 with help from H) and liberally frosted/decorated with vanilla/confetti buttercream by my D10. I think my H had to run the dishwasher three times that day. Sage, I totally agree.. people kept texting me to ask what I did special on my birthday and besides five straight hours of Zoom work calls, I simply didn't clean or cook, plus no real child supervision since they were so involved with the cake-making and decorating. It was ah-may-zing.
I had an interesting mini-R talk with my H last night as we were laying in bed. He said he is having a really hard time understanding why he did what he did, wrapping his head around two years of lying, cheating, that he did that to me. That he has been trying to put the reasoning on a spectrum, with one end being just a despicable human being, and the other end being (and he was clear to say he didn't think this was the case, just that this end would be the most justified end of why someone would behave the way he did) like The Princess Bride type true love. if there were only one person out there that you could be happy with and if you found that person, maybe that is a justifiable reason. He doesn't know where he falls on this spectrum, and I think he's trying to wrestle with the "I'm just a bad person" narrative in his head, that there is no excuse for what he did.
He doesn't know how to figure it out right now, because I don't want to hear some parts of what he would need to say (because I've drawn a boundary around hearing about his feelings for AP), his IC is OK but kind of an echo chamber since he's the only one talking, and until we can see the MC again together he just doesn't know how to process all of this.
I said I didn't actually think the feelings for the other person played into it at all and was not a justification for any behavior. He asked me what I thought was the other end of the spectrum. I said, carefully, that I thought someone could be a good person but be sad and hurting and lonely, and that someone comes along who listens and wants your advice and wants to be with you, and that probably would feel really good, and those decisions were made from that place, not completely out of selfishness and not caring how your actions affected other people. He was silent and then said thank you for saying that, it means a lot.
He said, but I did this for two whole years. I said I imagined that he got into a situation that was hard to get out of, and the only way he could justify it was to believe that it was true love, or whatever, on his justification spectrum, and so that fed into the the whole cycle. That he kind of had to double down in order to justify his own behavior. He said, I think that is more true than you know.
He said, but you would never have done this. I said no, I didn't think so. But that who you are is made of up the choices you make, and you can change that by changing your choices as you go forward. Don't want to be a liar? Don't lie anymore. You can't change the past. The A happened. There is no changing that. But you can move forward and be the person that you want to be going forward. And that I agreed that understanding why this happened was really important going forward for me as well, and for what it's worth, I'm here to listen. (I didn't bring my boundary back up, but it is still there and I think he knows that without me needing to say it again.)
He talked a little about consequences, that there are some things that you don't just get to say are in the past, like if you had a DUI and hurt someone, you'd have to live with that forever, maybe go to jail, whatever. Anyway. We talked about all this for awhile, and a little bit about how I'm feeling. This morning, he accidentally woke me up super early with his alarm too loud... he apologized a bunch (I have a hard time falling back asleep if I wake up since all this started) and came over and gave me a long hug in bed before he left. This hasn't happened for years. Like YEARS.
So... I feel cautiously optimistic, maybe we are moving into "piecing" whatever that is. Yes, still no beating of the breast and rending of the clothes in sorrow and penitence. I'm not hearing "I'll do whatever it takes" to make it right. I don't think he'll ever do either of those two things. But-- he finally answered my outstanding questions about the A. He is being thoughtful and working on why he did this (and I'm assuming part of that will be how to forgive himself for it), not just trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug which was a fear I had for awhile. We're talking about it and not fighting. I suppose it doesn't matter what we call it. He is working through his stuff, I need to continue to focus on me, and I guess I'm just not sure how to navigate what gets worked on together out of all of this when we can't see the MC and no child care on the horizon until the fall, assuming in-person school starts back up then.
For those of you who have gone through or are currently going through this stage... any thoughts?
And Sage... still wondering if you have the time and energy for it-- what are your thoughts about setting intentions/visioning for things that aren't just for you, but require another person to be engaged?
(re-reading this it sounds like I did a lot of the talking... I didn't, really. I mostly listened.)
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Man, May, you are so wise and present and lucid right now. The conversation with H must have been SO hard internally, but you did so beautifully in it all. But I have to ask some hard questions: do you feel resentful when you have to 'counsel' H through his $hitty choices? Do you feel like you have to put your own needs to the side to be able to help H process his? I say this with no judgement, I am the same type of person and could easily do exactly what you did.
However, in my own life (major projection here, so take it or leave it), the emotional enabling and 'saving' is partly what brought me to my current situation. I have a completely emotionally incompetent H who thinks it is OK to just step out of the real world to 'go work on himself' while I wait for him to do so. And he thinks this is OK (in part) because I have prioritized his needs over my own; I have enabled him emotionally so he never really has to figure it all out for himself. I have spent so much time saving him, he doesn't even know how to save himself.
This might be harsh, or even not relevant, but be careful that you don't fall into the same trap of 'wise, May; all-knowing May, 'controlling' May (ie May, who knows my feelings better than I do; even if duh, you do)'. How can you validate while allowing him to figure all of this out on his own? Can you do that? Because from an outsider's perspective, him figuring this out on his own is going to bring the most to your relationship in the end. Can you be present and open and get your questions answered without giving him the answers to his internal struggle? Because in hindsight, I would have allowed my H to struggle A LOT more than he had to. I don't think we would be in this sitch if I had.
On the other half of your update, I definitely think that you should be optimistic about the signs you are seeing in your R. All of the things you are mentioning are more than 'guilt ridden' responses, but truly empathetic and something one does for someone they care deeply about. A long hug? YES. Ownership of (at least part of) his side of the street? YES. Not sweeping it under the rug. Biggest YES. It sounds like you are really moving in the right direction, girl. I am so happy for you!
And regarding intentions that require another person... during the DB process we are taught to focus on ourselves and what we are in control of. But that's not real life; that's survival and coping. Real life doesn't happen in a vacuum. Unless you are a monk living in a cave in the Himalayas, you are going to have to react to real people, feel real emotions and participate in the give and take of relationships (whether with a spouse or a child or a parent or a friend). So it is completely OK to set intentions with another person involved in the outcome. Of course, there are intentions we set that are purely for ourselves (goals about career, personal development, etc). But a lot of my recent intentions are about my children, my future relationship and where I will be with all of them. So go for it. Dream your best R and write it out. In the present tense.
You are amazing, keep up the wise self reflection and ignore any 2x4's of mine that don't resonate.
Hi May, first of all, thank you for posting on my thread, I read through all of yours over the past couple weeks. You are in a much better position than me, but I agree that our sitches have some similarities.
My first impression was that you’ve had lots of R talks, implemented tough love after learning about the PA, then fell into several backslides. Your H was ambivalent after disclosure and didn’t think you could ever forgive him or desire would come back. You couldn’t let him go like most LBS...all too familiar for me.
There are some quotes that I’ve copied below which resonated and that I’ll comment on.
Originally Posted by May22
...if I could see into his head I would leave him in a second. That he is a bad person, he's done enough damage to our R that he can't imagine me forgiving him or him forgiving himself.
I thought this was one of the main reasons my W didn’t come back and give our MR another shot. However, I no longer feel this factored into the decision much at all anymore. It’s all about the AP and how they make the unfaithful spouse feel. That grip is so powerful and addictive and forgiveness either way pales in comparison. There are also factors of loyalty to the AP and justification to themselves that these choices were made because the LBS/MR was terrible.
Originally Posted by May22
I feel like he's deciding between pursuing a R with the AP together with the fantasy divorce idea with me vs. choosing a boring, passionless MR with me, plus losing out on the possibility of real romance/connection with someone else.
Same! My W believes in the fantasy where we have an open MR for her to sleep with her AP and we are friends/co-parents/business partners for her to maintain home life as a family. Sorry, that’s not a lifestyle for me, they can’t have it both ways.
Originally Posted by May22
I like the idea of keeping lists and deciding what can be addressed together, what needs to wait (or really don't need to be answered at all), and what should go to the MC. The MC suggested I give a list of the questions I have to H and he can say which he's OK to answer now and which he wants to wait on (since H apparently knows so much better than I do right now what is and is not in my best interest to know. This is making me INSANE.) TBH I haven't even told him the main questions I want answered-- they aren't really all that big of a deal-- like how did they communicate, did they ever meet outside her city, does he have any mementos/letters/photos/gifts of/from her, etc....And I don't really want him to do anything because I told him to...but I do eventually want him to do those things because he wants to himself, or cares enough about me to do it even if he thinks it is dumb, or is finally so embarrassed and disgusted at his own behavior that he wants to do whatever he possibly can to make it right.) So we are just tabling this for now but I did journal out all the questions I want answered at some point. I just feel like the longer it takes the more damaging it is on my psyche and ability to reconnect with H. But, pushing it now won't help anything.
I have been keeping a daily journal of my sitch since about a month after BD. I’ve been meaning to peruse it at some point and decide what events are important to me. There were so many occasions where I felt gaslighted and want to know the real truth to understand if I was crazy or not with some of my assumptions. I don’t want to know the intimate details. I learned many of those from snooping that I struggle to erase from my memory. I would like a timeline and how many OM there were during her GGW phase. I see that you’ve recently had this talk. I’m glad you he answered your questions and now you can move forward without bringing them up and asking again. Put them behind you, it’s in the past now, don’t let them inhibit your growth during R.
Originally Posted by May22
MC said look at it this way... you want these visible signs that he's turned away from the AP and is choosing you, like deleting his Spotify playlists, or her number or whatever. But what you really want is to know he wants to do that on his own, not that he's doing it because he thinks you want him to. And at least he's being honest about where he is in this journey. He just isn't quite *there* yet. H agreed, said he really knew he could do all the things I'm asking and say all the right things that I want to hear and probably make me happy. But he wouldn't honestly be there yet and he wants to do this all authentically. He said he loves doing things with me as friends and partners but he's struggling with the romance part. OK. All to be expected. Marathon not a sprint. And I signed up for this. Still would rather skip ahead to the part where he's begging forgiveness. But I also have to be OK with the fact that that may never happen, and come to terms for myself with how I feel or don't feel and what it means for how I want to live my life.
I want my W to delete every memory of her APs...contact in phone, texts, photos, any gifts/mementos left behind. I wish she would do it on her own out of love and respect without me asking. I don’t see my W begging for forgiveness, maybe years down the line. Just being friends with your spouse [censored]! I’m with you, this is a choice I made and have to accept she’s on a different schedule. I’m happy for you that some of the romance has returned to your MR as the two of you are putting in effort.
Originally Posted by May22
Maybe I won't be able to forgive him. Then what? I definitely know I can't if we don't ever talk about it or deal with the A. I know that I just need to focus on myself, what I can control, and when/if he's ready to accept the enormity of what he did and talk about it, we can start working on it. We'll get there when we get there, or we won't. And if we never do, then I have more decisions to make. I know he's on a different timeline than I am. Right now, all he can do is be present, be a good dad and partner. He simply can't yet deal with the rest of it.
Be present...ain’t this the truth in my sitch. Right now all I need is my W to have 100% NC with OM and be transparent and honest if any attempts at contact are made. Steve85 gave good advice on whether you get there or not. Set a date for yourself for the romantic relationship that you want to return. If that goal isn’t met, then make the decision on what you want to do, extend the date, ask your H for something different, end the MR, etc. This way it feels like you’re working towards something.
Originally Posted by May22
But I can't say we are in M2.0 until he can look me in the eyes and tell me he loves me, he wants to be with me-- not me the mom of his kids or me his best friend, but me as his wife and partner in life and all that entails. That he's willing to do whatever it takes and tell me whatever I need to know to move forward, and to face that part of himself that lied and cheated and was the exact kind of person he always despised. TBH, I think he's ready to put the AP in the past and focus on us. He's been doing that for awhile now. I just don't think he's ready to face himself.
I agree. I don’t think you can say you’re piecing until there is a firm commitment that leaves you convinced that your H wants MR 2.0 too and is willing to do the hard work and whatever it takes to make that a reality. I think your H can get there and face the enormity of his choices in time and with appropriate AP withdrawal.
Originally Posted by Wayfarer
I just want to warn you, that he is never going to say he's sorry exactly the way you want him to. He's never going to say I love you exactly the way you want him to. He never going to face his bs on your timeline or process it in the way you'd really like him to. It's all going to be on his time table and in his way at first. It’s a long road before he'll be ready to show and do things the way you'd like them to be, and then again he may never. This is a meet people where there at thing. He owes you a lot of explaining, and reassurances, and apologies, but there's a good chance all of that is going to come in his way and not yours. Are you going to be able to accept that? And the bigger question I have for you is, are you going to be able to set your pain, fear, anger, frustration etc. over all he's put you through aside long enough to see when he's giving you those things on his terms?
Great viewpoint from Wayfarer. Set your expectations aside. You might always feel there are unresolved issues surrounding the A and how he attempted to rectify those with you. Are you going to be able to accept that and leave it in the past? I think you’ve had your major questions answered by him already. I hope they were satisfactory for you. Take solace in the fact that he’s there, AP is gone, and the two of you are in MC taking steps towards R. You are on a good path May and building towards something many on this board don’t have the opportunity to experience. I think you’re doing tremendously well and will have MR 2.0 that meets both of your needs.
I enjoy reading your posts. You are several months ahead of me and it provides a glimpse of what could occur and what I might encounter in my sitch if my W ever gets there. You’re H is waking up and is asking himself the tough questions to move forward. His timeline is coming along nicely from what I read. Best wishes to both of you.
Me:41 W:39 S:9 D:6 T:20 M:16 PA:8/22/18, BD:11/6/18 PA discovery & IHS:12/3/18, W moves:4/2/19 R’ville:9/27/19, I give D docs:3/1/20 W home:4/5/20 (due to CV-19), W NC w/OM:4/13/20 6/1/20
Yes - he is working through 'his stuff'. Our sitch's have taken different trajectories and I am happy that your H is at least attempting to walk the same path as you. I think we've said it before, but your H is very much like my H. I know that it would have taken a h*ll of a lot of humbling for him to walk back through that door and even then there would be no fireworks, no romantic gestures, no untangling of what had happened or acknowledgement of the pain caused.
Time and patience I guess. If anyone has the patience and emotional resilience to get through this (even without the proclamations of love), I think that person is you. He might never open up fully but slowly the connection will start to feel less forced. Remember, there is a lot of shame and guilt in there that he isn't sharing with you because he hasn't dealt with it yet.
But I have to ask some hard questions: do you feel resentful when you have to 'counsel' H through his $hitty choices? Do you feel like you have to put your own needs to the side to be able to help H process his? I say this with no judgement, I am the same type of person and could easily do exactly what you did.
Yes, yes and yes. I've felt this way all along... but I know part of it, especially at first, was me being controlling and also imagining that this was all his fault and if only he was fixed things would be better again. I was reading about Alison regretting so much focus on reading self-help books about his issues and that totally resonated with me. I just looked in the office the other day and there is this shelf of books that I bought and read and gave to H to read, about MLC etc and I totally cringed.
Now, I really think I need to step back, stop projecting my own timeline and thoughts and whatever onto him and just let him do his thing. The other area where I got pretty good back in the crisis space and am not practicing well any more is validating... but also I think this is because I feel this need to be heard myself too, and was tired of hearing my H's version over and over about what happened. He had this very pat story down he had told himself throughout all of this-- SSM, he was broken, met AP and it was all kind of inevitable and traced back to my fault. Plus he opened up this secondary tale about how I controlled all his adult decisions, which is complete BS. Now that he is open to actually questioning/addressing some of this narrative, I just want to poke holes in it all day long. But I think I need to back off and listen more. I'm not sure how to totally address my own feelings and need to be heard without taking over the emotional work or being too controlling.
Originally Posted by Sage4
However, in my own life (major projection here, so take it or leave it), the emotional enabling and 'saving' is partly what brought me to my current situation. I have a completely emotionally incompetent H who thinks it is OK to just step out of the real world to 'go work on himself' while I wait for him to do so. And he thinks this is OK (in part) because I have prioritized his needs over my own; I have enabled him emotionally so he never really has to figure it all out for himself. I have spent so much time saving him, he doesn't even know how to save himself.
This isn't our dynamic so much. H is actually pretty good at recognizing his own emotions and has been much better over the past year plus at addressing them... one thing that is maybe a little backward in our sitch is that he has been in IC now for 1.5 years and I do think it is really helping him. He's also always been really good at dealing with the big difficult things that crop up in life, less good at the little annoyances, but I've always respected his ability to deal with real problems and have actually learned a lot from him in this arena over the years. But the big difference now-- and he said this himself-- is that the problem is one of his own making, not something that just happened. I can see how that makes it all the more difficult to face. It doesn't change, though, his need to work through it on his own, and my need for that to happen authentically as well.
Originally Posted by Sage4
This might be harsh, or even not relevant, but be careful that you don't fall into the same trap of 'wise, May; all-knowing May, 'controlling' May (ie May, who knows my feelings better than I do; even if duh, you do)'. How can you validate while allowing him to figure all of this out on his own? Can you do that? Because from an outsider's perspective, him figuring this out on his own is going to bring the most to your relationship in the end. Can you be present and open and get your questions answered without giving him the answers to his internal struggle?
This is all very relevant to me and where I am right now, and I really do need to work on this. It also dovetails with continuing to release expectations around timelines and what "should" happen, in what order... this is a continual challenge for me.
Originally Posted by Sage4
And regarding intentions that require another person... during the DB process we are taught to focus on ourselves and what we are in control of. But that's not real life; that's survival and coping. Real life doesn't happen in a vacuum. Unless you are a monk living in a cave in the Himalayas, you are going to have to react to real people, feel real emotions and participate in the give and take of relationships (whether with a spouse or a child or a parent or a friend). So it is completely OK to set intentions with another person involved in the outcome.
Good point. I think this is a good and meaningful exercise I should work through. I did this somewhat during crisis mode, and am now realizing that I've let much of my personal intentions slip away (regular yoga/exercise/meditation, though I still haven't really cracked the nut on actual meditation), gained half the weight I lost back-- not that where I was was sustainable, really, but it did feel good and I want to reverse the trend, etc. For my R, I got really good at validating and listening and connecting and trying to create small positive interactions. I feel I've let a lot of that slide and need to pick that practice back up. As I've been thinking about this more recently, my H is very responsive to these small positives and mirrors it all back-- it was one of the big aha! moments I had with all of this process, realizing that an R can be improved starting with just me.
Thanks so much, Sage. I really appreciate your support and thoughts. How are YOU doing?
Curtis, thanks for commenting-- it was interesting to get the perspective of someone who read the thread all through recently and not in real time. After reading your comments, I went back and re-read some sections and was thrown by things that I'm already forgetting or glossing over. I like the idea of setting a date for some movement in our R and then stopping worrying about it until then... I kind of had, like August, after this big trip we were supposed to take (now on hold til next summer) which would also be six months post ending his A. So maybe I just need to relax again, lose my expectations, and re-check in in August to see where we are. I saw that Steve85 did something similar in his own situation as well.
I hope you're hanging in there. I think it was on your page many months ago I remember reading how you felt about your kids and how you didn't understand how your W could walk away from this, and it really resonated with me. I'm rooting for you guys.
FlySolo, I wrote a little on your thread and will write more here because I totally agree about our H's similarities... but need to run for now. Thinking of you.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Tonight, H came up to me with the Gottman book after the kids went to bed and told me he'd read the first section. He said he realized there were a number of things going on in our R from before that were bad signs, and that also he realized that he was more responsible for some of it, including the SSM, than he had said before. I was elated that he was reading the book and we talked a little bit about some of the things in it
Then he said, there is something I have to tell you. His AP reached out (via Whatsapp) to tell him she was moving on permanently, something along the lines of speak now or forever hold your peace. He said he sat on it for a couple of days and then responded to say OK, he understood. Then that seems to have started a texting conversation, him checking in with her about the protests, her saying she had had a lot of trauma recently, that led to a phone call in which she told him all this stuff that has been going on with her (pretty minor "trauma," feels like a ploy to get him to call) including the fact that she'd slept with someone. H was totally gut punched on this. We went camping Tuesday through yesterday, he didn't talk to her at all when we were gone, but he called her this morning and they spoke again. I guess she told him not to call her again, she was going to block his number, he asked her not to and then he told me all of this tonight.
He is completely back to where he was back in January. He is worried he is losing his chance at happiness. His emotional connection to her is as strong as ever (he says it never really went away, though he didn't think about her as much, but when he did it was strong).
When he told me this, I said OK, when are you moving out and took off my rings (his was already off from surfing this morning). He said whoa whoa, this is not what I'm saying right now, we need to talk this through together. This is exactly what I was afraid of when I told you but I am telling you, I'm not keeping it a secret, blah blah blah.
He is spinning. He is totally freaked out that he is going to lose her, he said he never really let go of the idea that maybe they would work out in the end. He is worried that this is his one chance at being happy and he's been sad. Etc etc. That he had been trying but he doesn't know if he can anymore. He finally understands what betrayal feels like because of how he feels thinking about her being with someone else.
I felt like I was right back to January. Tonight had marked 5 months since he broke it off with her. Part of me is incredibly angry that he let this happen. If he had blocked her like I asked him to in the first place, he'd still be NC.... and I know that he WAS letting her go, even if he's saying how he never stopped. He said talking to her again was like a drug for him. He didn't know if he could live without her. The words he was saying was all the same things he was saying back then, totally ambivalent again, talking about the fantasy D sitch, blah blah blah. And of course I had just recently gotten my hopes up that things were moving forward between us.
He said maybe he needs to just see if this would work out with her and asked me if he did and in six months it didn't work out with her, would there be any possibility of me still being willing to work on our M (acknowledging that was a crazy thing to say and also that he knew I couldn't predict a hypothetical like that). I said of course I don't know 100%, since I also always thought that I'd be done forever if I ever found out you had cheated on me, and I didn't.... but that this entire time, him actually leaving was the bright line for me. So no, I wouldn't be there. If he walked, that was it.
I said I can't live through this again. That I considered continuing having any contact at all with her to be a continuation of the affair. As far as I was concerned, he was in an active affair again and I wasn't going to live like that. He protested that a little, that they were just talking, but didn't argue too much since he was also telling me how strong his feelings were for her.
He said what if he slept in the office for awhile... I said not if you're in contact with her. He asked about the basement, I said same thing. Then we ended up kind of arguing about whether or not I would actually be a cold cut-off-all-unnecessary-contact exW, he thinks I wouldn't really do that, I said OK, that is fine if he thinks that. (I was really trying to stay away from things he could perceive to be threats since that has come up a lot in previous R talks from back when). He also said what about a trial separation where he wouldn't be in contact with her but lived in the basement. I said why? he said so I can show you how great D might be. (The whole D fantasy was dusted right off and right back to where it was last year.)
Anyway, complete re-run of conversations we had in January. I asked what was different in his three reasons for ending the A from before. he said nothing... well, maybe she would be OK not having any children, because she wanted to be with him so badly she would be willing to give that up (I asked if they talked about this recently and he said no, it was from back before he ended it). Also, that he had been trying with me for the past five months and he still was in love with her. He also said the last couple of weeks he's felt uncomfortable about sex with me. I said I didn't consider what we had been doing for the last five months really trying... we barely talked about our R or the A until just a couple of weeks ago, and we haven't been seeing the MC. Those are two big, important parts of actually working on our R and seeing if it could work. We had major issues that needed to be dealt with and being together but not dealing with them was not actually "trying" in my book. But whatever.
He brought up several different times just how badly he'd screwed up, that he had hurt and betrayed me, that he didn't see how that was fixable, that I could forgive him or he could forgive himself. Before he went to sleep (in our bed... I'm sitting up here at 3 am) he asked if we could continue the conversation tomorrow. he talked a lot again about me being his best friend, him needing to talk to his best friend about this. He feels I've dismissed his feelings for AP and been like, just don't talk to her for awhile and you'll get over her, and that he doesn't know that he ever will/can. He asked me how this happened, how he could have started a two (now a two and a half) year affair. All the same things he was talking about last week... and now colored by the fact that they were back in contact at this point and he is again in total limerence, exacerbated by the fact that she slept with someone else and also that he might lose her forever.
Sooooo.... I had in the back of my head the whole time this was happening all the posters here saying you have to completely let them go and fail for them to come back. He did ask me what I wanted, did I think M2.0 was really possible, I said yes (maybe not DBing but oh well)-- that it took time to get over someone, he clearly wasn't over her, that I did believe if we both wanted to build M2.0 and believed we could, we would be successful. But if he was always going to have her in the back of his mind as the 'what if/maybe in the future' then it would never work between us... but I did wholly believe that if he could let her go, that we had all the ingredients to have something great. But that was a decision he was going to need to make for himself. it wasn't something I could do for him. And if his choice was to go, he should go. But I wasn't going to give him my blessing. ( know, not DBing. I should have been packing his bags. But he doesn't actually want to move out. Even his no-longer-trying-with-me version is him just being in the basement. Which I don't want-- if he is going to leave, I want him OUT. Which then gets into the whole I can't actually kick him out part because he's a co-owner of the house... and in my state the judges normally won't force someone out unless there is a threat of violence. Apparently it is pretty common here because housing is so expensive for D-ing couples to live together until the very end.)
So a little unhelpful mind-reading right now... I feel like best case scenario, her outreach knocked him off balance, got him thinking about her again, combined with the recent wrestling with the gravity of the betrayal etc., fear it could never work out with me, fear of losing her for good pushed him right back to where he was six months ago. This is a hiccup, things don't progress in a straight line, etc. Like, why did he start reading the Gottman book in the midst of all of this? And, he told me about it (and I believe it, though I'm pretty pissed he let it go for a week without telling me... he says he feels like it is in real time and he didn't want to tell me camping and ruin the trip. The conversation started back up Thursday, Friday was my birthday, we went camping Tuesday and got back yesterday. He was kind of an a-hole camping). But I do know he could have not said anything and I wouldn't have known the difference, because I trusted him that it was over, especially with the way he had been talking lately.
Worst case scenario, this will be my life forever if we stay together, even if he wants to try again, never really truly moving past this. Second worse case scenario, this is it, he's gone. I am very sad etc etc (I am no longer detached, though I'm much better right now than I was earlier on, that is for sure) but I know I'll move on eventually and be fine.
FlySolo, if you're reading this... one thing I wanted to say to you is that I have always felt like if my H leaves, that is it. It would be too big of decision to ever admit it was wrong. That he'd just double down and smoosh away any qualms because he wouldn't be able to deal with making this big of an error. (Or, maybe he hits total rock bottom, in which case I can't imagine wanting him back anyway.) I see so much of my H in how your H behaves. So I have always erred in my sitch because of this towards not pushing that final step out the door. Also, I know this is different for many of you, but the final out-the-door move has always just been my deal-breaker. I could deal with the rest but having to tell the children we were separating is something I could never forgive him for.
From reading about Wooba and Pommy and Wayfinder and Scout and so many others on here, I know that my children will be fine. I just so, so much don't want it for them. I know that many people look back and are glad that they S because it wasn't healthy for the children to be in so much conflict, or seeing their mom in such a bad place... but the honest truth is it has never been like that with us. Our kids know nothing and are completely, blissfully happy. I'm one hundred percent confident of that. But reading your stories has truly made some of the fear around this part go away.
Thoughts on what I should do? Avoid R talks for a bit? Tell him he has to stop all contact with her or GTFO? Let him move to the basement? Are we basically rewound to January-- possibly a bit better because if he can take a step back from the overwhelming emotions he's feeling right now, he could see that things WERE getting better between us and also none of his decision-making factors have changed? Or possibly worse because he can tell himself he tried for five months and his 'emotional connection' to her was just too strong? Or who cares anyway if it is slightly better or slightly worse, it all is awful, I don't deserve it, and I need to buck up and move on even though it will devastate my kids?
I know one thing I will definitely do.... I am getting that Botox now for sure!
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I'll address the paragraph directed at me. Yes, our H's are very alike. Both walled up overthinking bags of shame and guilt. And so many many insecurities. But they are also different. Yours needs your forgiveness. Mine, well mine keeps the need for forgiveness somewhere deep down in his psyche where the light don't shine. Mine protects his ego by making me the villain. Yours knows his the villain and wants you to forgive him for it. Either way, their ego's remain protected, and ours, well ours don't even get a look in.
But I think your question was if you force an ultimatum and he moves out do I think he will come back?. Yes, I think he will. Because he knows if he only says sorry enough and uses the right words, then you will take him back. Coming back for my H would be humbling, coming back for your H (he thinks) will only require tears and words. I'm not saying those tears won't be genuine, they will be, and the words will be deeply felt. I will caveat that statement. Him coming back will require the OW cutting him off.
May, he will do what he will do irrespective of what action you take. Addictions are like that. The question you have to ask yourself isn't should I kick him out or not but what am I standing for ?
Have you ever honestly looked at your M, your H or have you been too busy trying to save your M, fix your H?
I know I don't comment much but I have been following along.
Wow. That certainly is a lot to have to go through. I'm so sorry you're going through any of this in the first place.
Their timeline is really long. I think none of us realize just how long, just how chaotic and just how confusing things are until we get the occasional glimpse of it, and then that sends us LBSes spiralling - because we WANT to see progress, we want to see some kind of great leap forward. That's the nature of the LBS who has committed to standing. But I think we often forget just how bizarre the thought patterns are.
I can't help you with what to do, but I know that in my sit when I've noticed my WAW veer into chaotic territory (and I think you H is there right now), I back away. Very far away. I set my boundaries firmly and stick to them.
I would pick only the strongest boundaries to talk about though. R talks when he is in an open affair seem like they will only push him toward the AP - he's and AP's R has only now suddenly become a chaotic relationship. He needs to feel the consequences of his actions - probably best to get out of his way and let him take the full brunt of the hit.
If it were me I wouldn't talk about the AP and their R. If you don't want to talk about the A - you do not have to. I would kindly find a way (your way) to say something like: I understand you're in pain but I do not want to talk about the AP.
You are the stable unwavering one with rock solid morals. You know what's right and wrong. He is flailing about like a recently landed fish. You are the lighthouse made of granite in this monster hurricane.
May this is so tough. Remember - there are no time limits on this - so take as long as you need to think about things. Make sure your decisions aren't emotional ones - I always try to separate my immediate reactions from the event to try to get some perspective on it. You have the control here - you decide if you've had enough.
