DB'ing while living in with a WAS/MLC husband

[job]

BlueSea,

It's not easy when you are fighting for your marriage and sometimes, we do have those "happy moments" and along comes someone in IRL or here and then bam! The bubble of happiness pops.

Take some time to digest the comments that have been posted. The problem w/posting in print, people can take what is posted many ways. Each and every poster that comes here not only to your thread, but the many that are on this forum as well as the other forums are either walking the same path as you or are further along. Everyone has an opinion and each and every poster means well and you need only to take whatever advice that you think applies to your situation. Leave the rest in the dust.

I always advise posters to do what works for them and their situation and leave the rest at the door. If you try something and it isn't working, then try something else. You will know how things are going w/the trial and error routine because actions will speak louder than words.

I would offer up a word of caution and I do advise everyone of this...if you are having sexual relations w/your h and he's been out on the prowl, please, please get yourself checked out, even if he says he isn't having relations out there. Condoms work, but there is always the possibility of a slip up or a snafu w/that little rubber raincoat.

Take the time to work on yourself, if you have become aware of things that you've been doing that you aren't happy with, then now is the time to work on them.

We are here for you and the door is always open.

[LH19]

I am not offering sex to him, I am demanding sex from him.

Blue you can't demand someone to have sex with you and you shouldn't trust he is using protection. Make sure he gets tested first.

As I told him, if I am cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, handling the kids - doing the 'wife' things, then I have expectations in return. In that way, h and I were/are different, he had to be in a good space for it to happen, for me its a physical need.

Boy oh boy if a man posted this the $hit would hit the fan

He not wanting to take my propositions - is something I am used to, from before - he mentioning that he could be getting interested, to me, shows a shift. We have talked about his use of protection. tmi. I didn't realize that the #1 rules of DB is to never initiate sex.

Words absolutely mean nothing Blue. There is no shift. Luckily for you he turned you down because you would have regretted it at some point.

He sent me that email, after I made my offer, and told me that he never thought I could see past what he has done.

This is WW script for reasons not to work on the marriage. Seen here all the time.

And that act showed it could be possible.

What act?

He keeps telling me how hard a return would be, that he might not be up for working thru all that.

He's being honest you.

So me, asking to watch TV with him, is not asking for scraps to just be next to him - its strategic - its me throwing a breadcrumb, me saying lets do something 'normal' and super easy - you sit there, I sit next to you and we just watch TV. Let me show you that we can do that. Okay? We do that, and then, we try something else - I don't know, something a tad bit more higher - and see how we do at that. And keep going from there.

It's pursuit and pressure and that NEVER works and will drive him further away.

He is not an initiator. Its a big thing for him to tee up a conversation especially right now - but I see him trying to. He knows he is being an a@@hole - I could understand why he may feel ashamed to try to talk about light things when he know he is ripping my heart thru my nose - and is thinking 'why would she even want to speak to me or talk about vegetarian sausage when we both know I am being a HUGE jerk'. Its very stilted, and lasts a few mins. He is an introvert, and I can see that he takes it the wrong way when I end the conversation first (DBing).

Why are you making excuses for him?

I have been reading BluWave (she has a lot of threads - I am still in the 2017 dates) Her H did come back, only after she let the rope go. She detached. But did so, so thoroughly that she is struggling to accept him back, and on the brink of her own A.

Yep. The same thing very well may happen to you some day.

I think one can go to far in this detaching business.

This is an ABSOLUTELY FALSE statement. Anyway, on a scale of 1-10 you are a 1 in detachment.

I agree not to be in that panic state, grabbing after your spouse, begging and pleading. There is a healthy line there - and I am looking for it. Doing my best. I can see how after many years that it gets frustrating to read about us LBS, and the 'pathetic-ness' - know that you both are lifelines to logic that we just cant see or process right now, but more and more is making sense, though my execution is horrid.

You will look back many years from now and will be disappointed in your actions.

IMHO: All of the LBS that are women know exactly why we are here. We were controlling - we had a nice guy that was a doormat - it was a co-dependency that was bad for both. And he broke under our totalitarian rule.

Well demanding sex is not going to help matters.

We dug in our heels, so used to how it worked - and then one day - this nice guy decided (really had been deciding for a long time) that he was done.

Unfortunately that is what tends to happen on these boards.

My nice guy has truly transformed into a monster, he can not stand me, he see's me and is repulsed from all the memories. But I wasnt this way originally, I was sweet and loving, and waited on him, and showered him with compliments and gratitude - but somewhere along the way - and I have to say the kids were a huge part of it - they can be huge stressors with demands to be #1 - and I did that. My efforts were in this order Kid1, kid2, cat1, cat2, husband.

Even the cats where a head of him?

I am going to do my best to do whatever I can - and its touch and go right now for sure - but I want to be able to say I tried the best I could and right now I can at least say i am trying - clearly not in the most effective way - but will try to figure that out too.

Doing your best would be sticking to Sandi's 37 rules. I think you broke all 37 last night lol.

I do appreciate both of your advice and especially the way it is offered/communicated. There are 2x4s that are well delivered and I really need to process them and be open - because right now I recognize that I am being defensive. I had a happy moment and am trying to defend that, maybe wrongly so. I see this as a safe place - and do look for your experience on a daily basis.

This is a place where we are here to help. You have to have thick skin to get through this so try to remember that when we are telling you that you are absolutely making matters worse right now.

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.

Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.

An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.

For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow. Once the volcano explodes there is no going back.

Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.

That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting H back will restore these things, but it won't.

So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?

[LH19]

I have been reading BluWave (she has a lot of threads - I am still in the 2017 dates) Her H did come back, only after she let the rope go. She detached. But did so, so thoroughly that she is struggling to accept him back, and on the brink of her own A.

This confirms the point about your brain trying to stabilize and bring stability back to your life. It's never about the other person. The fact of the matter is truly happy couples do not find themselves in these situations. If you are honest with yourself you were probably not that happy either.

Something to think about.

[SteveLW]

Bluesea, obviously your situation is yours, not ours, so what you decide is best to do is ultimately up to you. The perspective that we bring as a collective (both welcomed and unwelcome feedback) is what we'e observed as working in dozens and dozens of situations here. And what we can tell you is that some of your tactics that you are engaging in and considering engaging in tend to set situations like yours back, not move it forward. We have had more than a few LBSs that grew tired of the blunt advice suggesting they do the opposite of what they were doing or wanted to do, only to come back weeks or months (sometimes years) later and admit that they should have taken the advice. We just had one recently do that within the last couple of weeks.

I know hearing some of the things you've heard here have been jolting. I think at one point you said you left the board over something LH said, but now you see that LH is only trying to help. We get a lot of LBSs here that are in denial, and we tend to talk frank and blunt with them in an effort to wake them from that denial state. The fact is that they are facing DIVORCE and unfortunately there is nothing a LBS can do to stop that. We say all the time, if the WAS wants a D then more than likely they (the LBS) will end up D'd. Unfortunately it takes 2 to make a marriage, but only takes 1 to get a D.

So there is a DB principle that we build all the rest of our advice on: Control what you can, and that is only you. You only have control of you. If there was anyway to control the WAS then this forum would be empty. There would be no need to DB at all. But the whole point of DBing is to turn the focus from the WAS and turn it back to yourself as the LBS. That is what GAL, 180ing, and detaching is all about. We only get control of one person in this life, and our WAS ain't it.

The other tendency most LBSs have is to revert back to what got you into your MR to begin with. And that is that initial wooing and attracting phase when you first met your SO. That is what becomes intuitive to the LBS when they face marital strife. "I need to get back to what got me here!" So we start wanting to do things like hug, and kiss, and snuggle, and say ILY, and initiate sex, and go on dates, and become a perfect spouse (cleaning the house, providing meals), we buy presents, we read the 5 love languages and try to fill their love tank. None of that works. And I usually use a simple analogy for why none of that works:

A MR is like a car. It requires routine maintenance. Just a like a car needs oil changes, tune-ups, air filter changes, and cleaning inside and out, so does a MR. That routine maintenance for a MR is making sure to keep the connection alive. Going on dates, saying ILY, filling their love tank (5 LLs), sex, kissing, hugging, etc. But with a car, if you ignore the routine maintenance eventually you have a breakdown. If you don't change the oil eventually the engine will seize up. Once that happens, you could change the oil but it would be a waste of time. No amount of oil changes is going to fix a blown engine. And the MR is the same, once you have a major breakdown in the MR, no amount of routine maintenance can fix it. All those things that are intuitive become a waste of time, and in fact, they cause more damage than good.

Once your H is sleeping on the couch, sneaking out at 12-5am to see an OW, it is too late for all of the routine maintenance that may have been missing in the MR up to that point. And exerting that pressure and pursuit on a WAS causes them to run away even faster. I cannot think of one sitch here that was turned around by the LBS pressuring and pursuing their spouse. Again, if it were that easy then this forum wouldn't exist. There is no magic bullet to fix a broken MR!

So Bluesea, what you can do is focus on you. I was surprised to hear you say that you didn't know that initiating sex was a violation of DBing principles. It has me questioning if you've read DB or DR. If not I highly suggest you pick up DR and read it. It makes me question if you've read all of Cadet's welcome message links. There is gold in those links! If you have read DB/DR and/or Cadet's links I highly encourage you to go back and read them again. Not just read them, but study them. Learn them. Know them. I used to carry a copy of sandi's 37 rules around on my smartphone and would read them multiple times a day! It kept me focused on the behavior that was going to better my situation, not make it worse. And I started to know them like the back of my hand!

One last thing I will challenge you on is whether or not your H is a WAH or a WH. You seem convinced hs is a WAH. However, one of the key differences between a WAH and WH is that a WAH will, well, walk away! WHs are completely different. They want their cake and eat it too. They want to crash on the couch, but still come and go with OW unabashedly and not even try to hide it. They will engage in "nice talks" like the one he had with you in order to manipulate and keep his current arrangement for as long as he can. I would argue that your H is a WH. Not merely a WAH. And I hope you understand that WSs require a tougher kind of love than a WAH would.

Anyway, I hope this helps. If not, let me know and I will abide by whatever wishes you have in regards to me continuing to weigh in on your sitch! God bless you and keep you, Bluesea. My sitch was the hardest thing I have ever gone through, I am pretty sure you would concur with that in your case.

[BlueSea]

Steve, -

Both you and the input I have received from LH have been so completely valuable to me - I wish I could express that the advice I have found here and shared by you both (and others) have been gold. You are right this is one of the hardest things I have ever gone thru. I feel that I have read volumes of books and posts, but depending when I read it, some has stuck and if I was in denial - I did not allow to stick b/c it did not fit my this-will-all-work-out narrative. So pulling out the DB book would be a smart thing to do, I do have it - thanks for the suggestion. I am sure I was reading it at light speed to find that magical answer - that does not exist.

I think if I research every angle, I will figure this out. Believing it would open a door to understanding more about my H, I just started to read the No more Mr Nice Guy book - and instead was knocked back to find insights more about myself. What stopped me most was:
"Spending extended periods of time alone also helps recovering Nice Guys face their number one fear - loneliness and isolation. When the NG discovers that spending time alone doesn't kill him, he may also realize that he doesn't have to stay in bad relationships or tolerate intolerable behavior...." I can not be alone. It is my #1 fear. I don't even like taking showers alone.

Other ng stuff - I have always felt that its selfish to put my needs first -yes, I always thought it was virtuous to put others ahead of me -yes. And I am only happy if my partner is happy- yes. Always fixing and care taking-yes. I always thought it made me feel good to give, and that generosity is a sign of how good I am and so that will make others love/appreciate me back- yes. That is all how I think. There's more similarities - not all - but a good deal. And all of this coming from childhood issues? That well is just too deep, trust me.

I feel like this tunnel just keeps going. I can not deal with all of it: H affair, plus H issues, plus H needs, plus H expectations, plus the kids, plus the job, plus look as great as I can and act perfectly (be friendly, upbeat, seem happy that all is going well), be productive at work amid layoffs, cook 2 separate but equal meals, keep the place clean, the kids in check, keep 37 rules in my head and sort out toxic childhood issues.

I am just getting dizzy trying to process it all. And the sands keep shifting, so there is always something new. DD16 just had it out with H this morning, calling him a p@ssy for stepping out last night, treating us all badly and pretending that its not happening. She is hurting, DS13 is hurting. Clearly, something has to change. I KNOW that. Even though everything about me wants him to say, my higher self is pushing me to get it over with and get him out - screaming at me to just say it - "Leave!".

I thought a discussion around the dd explosion would be the time to tee up the conversation- during it, he leads the conversation and and tells me - Not to worry about what happened, dd really gave it to him, but that is on him to deal with - and for me to hold on, please be patient with him, things are coming to a head with the 'situation' and that it should play out very soon. Things are still really bad with him and us - but not dead, he is no longer 'one foot out the door' and the situation is getting resolved.

That's all I needed to hear to be that typical LBS - a shred of hope that around the corner there is happiness - just wait. I think if he is going to leave me, and that is his news that is around the corner, then fine - either way he will be out. Would it be better if I asked him to leave - definitely - but then I lose the Pandora's box of every really knowing if he actually was going to cut it off? I had told him the other day that I needed to make a decision, that the dam was just springing too many holes and I no longer could keep the kids at bay with his behavior, and personally could not stand the nightly runs. Maybe this is pushing him to decide sooner - or - he is bread crumbing me in the worst way possible, as a WH would.

[may22]

Hi BlueSea,

I think this crisis time where you are right now is the hardest time for anyone. It is intense trauma and often you have no-one you can really turn to as you would in any other scenario. And on top of it, you're facing this at a time of extreme turmoil for the entire world. Don't blame yourself for being stressed out or having a difficult time coping. You're in the thick of it and with the pandemic and all the other things happening right now in our country, I think it is heroic that you're even still standing. I have so much empathy for you. And know that all the advice you're getting from different folks, even when hard to hear, all comes from a place of caring. People that have been through similar situations and truly want to help.

I know what it feels like to feel like you're being judged for your choices on this board, and I just want to reinforce what others have said above-- take what serves you and leave the rest. Only you truly know your own situation and what works. There are a few of us LBWs who did not kick their cheating WHs out of the house, for various reasons. I think the most important thing is that you need to do what you're comfortable with. If you aren't there yet where you feel OK with booting your H to the curb, that is your call. Yes, maybe things would go faster/better if he goes. But you need to feel like you're making the right decision for yourself and your children, and if right now that means not making any major moves... I think that is OK. I know others may disagree with me here, but I think if you're that against asking him to leave inside of yourself, you need to honor that and instead continue to DB in as many ways as you possibly can while under the same roof.

I think the most important thing is to continue to focus on yourself, your needs, what serves you, and let go of what doesn't. You just can't keep this all up forever-- it is tearing you apart. You need a mental break. What can you do differently today to support yourself? I would suggest stopping cooking him special vegetarian meals, stopping all R talks. Let the house go to h3ll and curl up on the couch with a good book and some fabulous chocolates. Take an extra-long bath. Order your favorite meat-filled take out and enjoy it with your kids. Splurge on a great bottle of wine or beer. Just focus on yourself for a few days and stop worrying about your H and all the havoc he's brought into your life. He doesn't deserve to have so much of your headspace right now. Don't give it to him.

Cultivate detachment like it is your only source of food and water and you're on a desert island. I agree this is the hardest thing to do and so frustrating when everyone here is telling you to detach and it is so much easier said than done. But I think one of the reasons you're getting so much feedback you perceive as negative is because people are watching you hurt and spin and it is painful for all of us too, since we've all been there and it $ucks. This is a fake it til you make it kind of thing and you just have to make yourself let go until one day it will start to stick. Maybe try meditation or yoga-- or if already part of your practice, double down. I watched this short Ryan Holiday stoicism video on sports ("you only control how you play") literally hundreds of times. I don't know why it really spoke to me, but it did. Every time I was in the car or by myself, I played it over and over. You only control you. You don't control him. Drop the paddle, drop the rope, focus on yourself, and let him do whatever he needs to do. Try your very best to stop giving a $hit about what he's doing. He's not worthy. You are.

(((BLUESEA)))

[Spiral]

Before you make him leave, make sure to get an accurate (as possible) list of assets and liabilities. Also find out if any of the recurring bills are in your name. You'll want to make sure that those are paid. A wayward spouse tends to leave his or her responsibilities behind and, in many cases, you'll have to pick up the slack.

-Spiral

[LH19]

B,

I am really sorry you are going through this right now. I want to start off by talking about asking him to leave. First off you legally can't kick him out so let's just take that off the table. Calmly asking him leave establishes the fact that you are not ok with what is going on. That is the starting point. You can't control but this situation in not working for you.

I talk about this all the time that recently I was introduced to a concept that "Live will present you with people and circumstances to show you where you are not free". Totally believe it and in fact you are a prime example of this theory. When I read you don't like to shower alone it spoke volumes to me. You and your H are broken people and you are never going to have a good relationship until you fix yourselves. You can't make him fix himself but you can work on you. Now is the time to take the focus 100% of your husband and put it on you and your children.

Most of people's insecurities come from the feeling that they are not enough. These are usually developed in childhood and carry into adulthood. Your control issues stem from these insecurities. You try to control your husband so he won't leave you because you feel that you're not enough and these behaviors end up turning into a self fulfilling prophecy. This in turn feeds the ego and the ego says "see I was right you are not enough". You've been dealing with this likely for 4 decades so it's going to take a really long time to rewire your brain. The question is to do have it in you?

We are here to help you and support you but at some point you will have to take a leap of faith and let him go. This limbo will beat you to your knees and leave you there permanently if you let it. Life is about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.

[SteveLW]

but then I lose the Pandora's box of every really knowing if he actually was going to cut it off?

Bluesea this is a false sense of security. You will never really know whether he stays or goes. I had a friend that had an affair for a couple of years. She once told me when I confided in her about my W's EA, that if my W wanted to have a PA, she would. Her exact wording about it was "if someone wants to cheat bad enough, they will find a way to do it." So while depressing, I have to see we have seen that behavior in these sitches. That is why we tell LBSs not to tell the cheating spouse HOW or WHAT they know, but just that they know. Otherwise the cheating spouse will take the affair deeper undercover.

[BlueSea]

May, thank you for your post, I came back today after taking a board break for the weekend. And I did just this today,"Order your favorite meat-filled take out and enjoy it with your kids"- it was great! Appreciate your thoughts and support. I spent Saturday with a friend, and it was lovely.


Spiral - appreciate the pragmatism, I am checking out all financial areas and tracking things and trying to see where the money is going and how its being used. thank you.

This limbo will beat you to your knees and leave you there permanently if you let it.

LH - Truer words have never been spoken. I know I need to do this. I know it.

Otherwise the cheating spouse will take the affair deeper undercover.

Steve - I think this is going to be very prophetic for me as you read this post to the end.

My friend that I met with on Saturday is divorced and really stepped thru the D process - for me to understand what was on the other side, and not fear it so much. Without reading any of the philosophies here she was pretty on target with the same advice. I did get re-assurances that asking him to leave at the end of the month was a good target. And we could determine then that a 'check-in' in a month or monthly, would be a plan. She is getting married, and is truly happy, I could see that - she so deserves that. There is happiness post D. (I still wince about going thru it).

SITUATION:
-I am not going to share the details but there was alot of emotions from him this past weekend. He was very open and explained alot to me - shared more than he has ever had - and let me know that I was welcome to come to him anytime. It was helpful for me. He was being human, bordering kind.
-Lot of emotions from him this past weekend. Tearful hug with sorry & emotional talks & emails from him.
-Doesn't matter... he still stepped out on both Sat and Sun night - its too much for me. Its like trying to recover from a burn, but he is keeping me in a hot pan, I keep moving/turning over, but I will never be able to heal.
-Monday, met up with my counselor and stepped out a plan for me to ask him to leave.
-Since that IC meeting was late, I was hustling the kids out the house to get dinner. H called me back in to let me know he was going to do the right thing, give him a week or two and he would end the affair. I told him those were great words, but I needed to see action behind it.
- He told me that even with her gone, we were still not good. But he would be alone, like me, going thru this. (I had given him grief on Sunday that he was going thru this with his lover while I was alone and dealing with the 2 kids)
-I have little hope that he will break it off with her, he considers her a life raft. And without her he worries that he would just jump into mine out of need, not want. And he does not want to be back in this state in 2-3 years.
- WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! heck no, I do not want to do this again in a couple years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....This is what I wanted, right? him back, no OW. (Lets assume he is even able to drop her) ... for whatever reason now I am full of fear and anxiety about that path and I have no idea why!!!

Still have the 'ask to leave' request on the deck but now thinking will give him the 2 weeks and see if he can drop her - that would clearly mean something - if it can be backed up with no more night runs.