And then it was over.

[LH19]

If I can tolerate what he is doing (which is so so painful) will he just eventually come back? Its hard for me to understand how, if he is not here, will he see any changes?

Misty Sea I would love to be able to tell you with 100% certainty that he will come back.

You can own and address and pick up the pieces from your own shortcomings and bad decisions. You can't fix the mess your husband has wrought. Your best path forward is to get away from him right now. Drop the rope. That is your only chance of having him come back around. Make it worse in order to make it better, it's the shortest path.

The path of half-measures leads to prolonged limbo and agony.

In the mean time if you want him (or anyone else) to feel safe in this regard, then you need to have a wonderful life on your own. If you have provided for your own emotional needs and are living a life that makes you happy, then you don't need to hang anything over his head, because you really don't *need* him for anything.

He's in your life because you want him to be, not because you need him to be. You're his partner, not his dependent.

The nice thing about that scenario is that his knows if he doesn't hold up his end of the bargain as your partner, that you don't need him and are able to leave him behind while maintaining your wonderful life.

What kind of behavior do you think that will motivate?

Your husband is walking down the street at night and stops between two houses. From one house comes the sound of crying, wailing, and breaking glass. The other house seems to have a party going on and he can hear music and laughter and sounds of friendship. Which house does he want to enter?

If your life is full of warmth, laughter and friendship he won't be able to stay away, and even if he does you won't miss him.

[BlueSea]

So, I did end up confronting him even though we agreed to speak tonight, I let him know that I would have had a little more respect for him if he had at least tried to hide leaving last night (like he used to). I don't know why him hiding it made me feel better, but in some way I thought he was at least trying to protect my feelings.

What I am most confused about, out of that conversation, is that he says he just sees us as good friends, that's all..nothing more. That he just does not have 'those' feelings for me anymore.

I don't get it. Isn't being 'good friends' after 23 years a good thing? I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this. Am I off the mark? if so, please tell me. Otherwise is he just making excuses - with nothing else to say?

[LH19]

I don't get it. Isn't being 'good friends' after 23 years a good thing? I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this. Am I off the mark? if so, please tell me. Otherwise is he just making excuses - with nothing else to say?

Well ultimately you would like the passion to still be there but for that to happen you need to work on it. He is getting all the excitement from the his affair partner but that will eventually fizzle out. One of the problems MS is that he has no fear of losing you. How can you change that?

[may22]

What I am most confused about, out of that conversation, is that he says he just sees us as good friends, that's all..nothing more. That he just does not have 'those' feelings for me anymore.

I don't get it. Isn't being 'good friends' after 23 years a good thing? I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this. Am I off the mark? if so, please tell me. Otherwise is he just making excuses - with nothing else to say?

Hi Misty,

I'm so sorry you're here and going through this. I just wanted to pipe in with a couple of thoughts:

-- my H gave me word-for-word some of the same things you're getting, no emotional connection, can never get that back, blah blah blah, even though he still saw me as his best friend. He said the same thing about me fighting for my "life" and that he was being open to possibilities by not leaving. They are following the same script. Your H is stuck in the limerence/fantasy of his A and no real-life relationship can ever compete. So don't try.

-- the thing that struck me in your last question is "I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this"... you shouldn't be arguing with him, trying to convince him, or rebutting his statements. That is not DB-ing. Validate him (or even better, just avoid the conversation altogether). When he is saying these things that sound so crazy, this is really how he feels at the moment. When you argue against him, you're just showing that you don't really get it. This was a really, really hard thing for me to get through my skull. My H somehow, weirdly, REALLY needed me to understand how he felt for his AP vs how he felt for me. I probably ended up getting more of it than I needed to because I did spend a lot of time, especially earlier on, getting drawn into R talks where I argued exactly your point, plus the kids and we had this before, we can get it back, isn't it worthwhile to try, etc. etc. None of this got through. He just isn't in a place to hear it. I would try to stop those conversations generally and if you get drawn into one, practice some stock validation or delay phrases to avoid telling him how you feel right now.

-- in terms of kicking him out, you might be interested in reading through my thread when I was in the same situation (though my H's AP was long-distance, so he couldn't have actually ran to her physically but she was definitely there for him emotionally, wanted to have his baby, all of that. BLECH.) I had really resisted him leaving-- that was my big boundary that I felt I'd never be able to forgive him for if he crossed--and it wasn't until I found out he had been in a 2-year long PA (previously had thought much shorter and EA only) that I told him to get out and meant it. In my case, he actually refused, although he'd been saying for months he wanted to MO. Then when I opened the door he refused to go (and legally I found out I couldn't make him). I also started researching D, getting all our financial information together, etc. In my case,I do think that was a really important part of what has ended up happening-- him seeing I was really ready to move on with my life without him. I think that is a critical step in DBing with one major caveat-- if and only if you're really there and can back up what you're saying. Don't threaten to kick him out if you don't mean it. You might re-read the LRT section of DR. Find your boundary and where you draw the line, communicate that to him, and then stick to it. Don't tell him he needs to MO and then backtrack if he actually starts down that path-- that is just teaching him he can do whatever he wants without consequence. But if you're really through with him sneaking out to sleep with AP, I think you should tell him to go.

--if you decide you can live with what he's doing, MWD does say you can leave it, but really focus on yourself, GALing, and do not ask him about it or talk about the R at all. There is a chapter in her infidelity book about this that was helpful for me. You might also read Wayfinder's thread, who has basically taken this path-- decided it wasn't in the best interest of her girls to boot him out and therefore did not. I think this path is not for the faint of heart. You really, really need to be able to detach emotionally and focus on yourself if you do this, and I think it is very difficult for most people. But if you can, MWD does have a path for sticking it out this way. The rules are not that dissimilar, but you get zero breaks because you have to be DBing all the time with your H right in your face. I think this is why most vets don't recommend this path. I kind of took this path when he refused to MO--I know I could have forced him out if I really wanted to (I could have thrown all his stuff on the front lawn, for instance) and I didn't. I did set a deadline, basically six weeks from when I found out about the PA he was going to see her in person and I needed a decision one way or the other by then. I don't believe I could have gone much longer than that without breaking. It was very, very difficult and I completely empathize with what you're going through.

--Finally... if he doesn't leave, i would definitely stop the coffee making, special vegetarian meal cooking, etc behavior. Why, oh why, would you do that for a cheating a-hole of a husband? Someone on this board said to me when I was in a similar place to you that really stuck with me -- your H is NOT being a friend right now. Why are you saying you're still best friends? Friends don't lie to you. They also don't scream in your face until you are shaking and crying and walk out the door when you aren't up to making them coffee one time. Put yourself in his shoes-- what are you teaching him? I would really work on drawing the line for what you will and will not tolerate if he is going to be living in your house for now, and then if he does start something that crosses the line like yelling at you, stop the conversation and walk away. (Maybe he isn't doing that anymore-- I think I got that from the beginning of your thread-- but generally I would refrain from doing nice wife-like things for him. He isn't being your H right now, so don't treat him like one.)

Hang in there. I know it is excruciating. It DOES get better, one way or the other. You might also spend some time really getting comfortable with the idea of what D might be like, and read some of the threads on here of folks who split up and are happier than they've ever been. You didn't ask for this, you don't deserve it, but it is happening and now it is up to you to decide how you want to handle it.

[BlueSea]

May22!

They are following the same script. Your H is stuck in the limerence/fantasy of his A and no real-life relationship can ever compete. So don't try.

May22
I read part of your thread, looks like your H made the decision to end the A - mine is still in full EA/PA while living with me - and I am coming to terms with that. He "says" he has no love for the OW. And has no plans for a relationship with her. He could be lying, I don't know. He is seeing her while staying here - all the while telling me that he can compartmentalize and stay in this marriage. I am going to talk to the DB counselor tomorrow morning, who also told me before to just let it ride.I see you put a timeline on it, 6 weeks right? Do you think I should put a time limit on this situation?

Also you said "so don't try" --- what does this mean? Am I SOL until the A is over?

I just met with a divorce lawyer this morning - I too need to get my financial information in order - I will need his help with that so maybe this is a right time to approach H on that matter? - which also lets him know I am moving in a different direction as well.

I had really resisted him leaving-- that was my big boundary that I felt I'd never be able to forgive him for if he crossed

This is exactly how I feel!! if he does leave, then that abandonment would set me over the edge for sure.

MWD does say you can leave it, but really focus on yourself, GALing, and do not ask him about it or talk about the R at all. There is a chapter in her infidelity book about this that was helpful for me.

This is good to know, overwhelmingly the advice here has been to boot him out - I will look for the infidelity book, or is it in the DB book?

generally I would refrain from doing nice wife-like things for him. He isn't being your H right now, so don't treat him like one.

Yes, I agree on this point. I resent doing his laundry, so that is out. And having him walk out on me during the week, is for sure going to stir resentment, so I imagine things dropping off my list of to-do's for him.

I do not disagree that this is the more painful route - to have this happen all right in front of you. I will check out Wayfinders thread to understand more of what I am getting into. Thank you for that suggestion. I am entering this with much trepidation. I know I can not ask him to leave, so I really have not left myself with much choice.

You might also spend some time really getting comfortable with the idea of what D might be like

No can do, I get anxiety attacks just thinking about that. I am not ready for that. Call it avoidance, I don't know - but I can not wrap my head around that processing.

May22 - can I ask? How did you move from 'he could not see you in an intimate way again? I read in your thread that you made that transition but how? My H also said he did not see me 'that' way anymore and does not touch me (I am attractive & thin) but he just won't - will go out of his way not to. What is going on in his mind? is he bizarrely being faithful to the OW? how can I get him to see me differently? I don't want to be in the friend zone.

Thanks for all the input - its honestly getting me thru the day - even reading things that are hard because it helps me to keep moving...today was really hard, between the stepping out last night blatantly and the lawyer call.

[Sage4]

Calling the lawyer is a good thing for you to do. Knowledge is power. But sleep on whether you want to pull that card right now. It could be the ‘out’ he is looking for. Are you really ready for that? From your posts, I don’t think you are.

I have done the same thing (talked to a lawyer, though didn’t retain one). For me, having that information helped me understand what I would be up against. But deep down, I wasn’t ready to make an ultimatum. And the longer I have sat within my situation, the more I realized that I didn’t want to be the one to actually file or move forward on that path. In some ways, leaving it up to him takes it out of my hands. It’s already a terrible position that your H has put you in, make him be the one to suffer the consequences of actually legally leaving your marriage.

I know that May (and others) have had a different experience with S and H leaving the home. I was scared to death of H leaving. It felt like just one more step towards the end of our M. But 6 weeks in to our S and I can say that it wasn’t the worst thing to have happened. I was a shell of a human those last few months living under the same roof, dealing with the minute-to-minute rejection, stonewalling and hurtful words. It was AGONY. And although the agony isn’t completely gone, the breathing room has allowed me to finally get closer to detaching. I am slowly reclaiming my value.

I see some similarities in our situations and for me, I now recognize that our R had absolutely no hope if we were to remain under the same roof. I am seeing tiny little flickers of hope right now. Nothing to write about, but certainly more than we could have accomplished living together.

Each of us has our own path to forge in this process. You will find yours.

[may22]

May22
I read part of your thread, looks like your H made the decision to end the A - mine is still in full EA/PA while living with me - and I am coming to terms with that. He "says" he has no love for the OW. And has no plans for a relationship with her. He could be lying, I don't know. He is seeing her while staying here - all the while telling me that he can compartmentalize and stay in this marriage. I am going to talk to the DB counselor tomorrow morning, who also told me before to just let it ride.I see you put a timeline on it, 6 weeks right? Do you think I should put a time limit on this situation?

Well, my H had a 2 plus year full on PA while living with me. I just didn't know about it the whole time. She lives on the other side of the country, so he didn't see her very much-- average every other month, probably-- but it was very intense. He only made the decision to end the A after it was all out on the table. He also "tried" to end the A (before I knew about it) many times during the entire second year. He also told me about being good at compartmentalizing and that he just had an "emotional connection" to her but that he didn't think he'd end up with her if we Ded... it wasn't until the very end I found out just how deep he was in.

I don't know that I'd put a timeline on it unless you are really ready to walk at the end of it. I was. It was related to the fact that he was going to travel to her city 6 weeks after he confessed the full extent of the A and I knew I couldn't handle him being in her city without some resolution. You might have a timeline in your head for how long you can deal with your current situation, but I wouldn't force it. You need to figure out what YOU need in order to cope and heal and be sane. I think that is the most important part of this entire process-- removing the focus from him and what you might do or not do in order to get him to do something (or not)-- do what you need to do for YOURSELF without giving a $hit about what it may or may not cause him to do. It isn't about him anymore. He has checked out. It is about you now, and your kids. What is best and healthiest for you at this point?

Also you said "so don't try" --- what does this mean? Am I SOL until the A is over?

Have you read about the ping-pong analogy? That you and the AP are playing a game of ping-pong and it won't end until one of you drops the paddle? I mean, be the one to drop the paddle.

I just met with a divorce lawyer this morning - I too need to get my financial information in order - I will need his help with that so maybe this is a right time to approach H on that matter? - which also lets him know I am moving in a different direction as well

I'd do it on your own. If he notices you doing it or you really need his help with something, ask him specific questions to get the answers you need. But don't, I repeat do not, use this as a means to try to get him to see the light. He will see right through that, and/or he'll respond in a way that will hurt. Do it only to get the information you need to make good decisions for yourself and the kids.

I had really resisted him leaving-- that was my big boundary that I felt I'd never be able to forgive him for if he crossed

This is exactly how I feel!! if he does leave, then that abandonment would set me over the edge for sure.

I know that May (and others) have had a different experience with S and H leaving the home. I was scared to death of H leaving. It felt like just one more step towards the end of our M. But 6 weeks in to our S and I can say that it wasn’t the worst thing to have happened. I was a shell of a human those last few months living under the same roof, dealing with the minute-to-minute rejection, stonewalling and hurtful words. It was AGONY. And although the agony isn’t completely gone, the breathing room has allowed me to finally get closer to detaching. I am slowly reclaiming my value.

I think Sage has a really good point here. For me, the day-to-day with my H was actually very positive, I think partially because at that point I'd been DB-ing for eight months, he'd been in IC for a year, and between those two things we'd dealt with most of day-to-day issues. We were getting along quite well. I know that isn't the case for most people. If I'd found out about the A earlier on, when we were fighting all the time and I could feel the resentment and anger pouring off of him in waves, I think we would have S and that would have been the best thing for me. It just didn't happen in that order for me.

Also, it wasn't until I mentally did let him go that he chose to leave his AP and come back. I also made it very clear that if he walked out the door, he was never coming back. And I meant that 100%. That was my boundary and if he walked, we were done. That might not be your boundary. I could deal with him living at home while in an EA and then in a PA, though not for all that long, and I know that would have crossed the line for a lot of people. I think if you can, try to take the focus off of him and what he's doing, stop worrying about how what you do might affect him, and really focus on yourself. Feel your feelings and name them. Try to get a hold of what is going on for you and what you can deal with and what you absolutely can't... and then draw your line. I can't emphasize enough, though, that your line has to be authentic. It can't be an empty threat. It has to be your actual boundary that you've thought through and are willing to enforce in order to protect yourself. If you aren't there yet, that is OK. you'll get there. Just take the time you have now to focus on yourself, forgive yourself, and think about how to protect yourself.

This is good to know, overwhelmingly the advice here has been to boot him out - I will look for the infidelity book, or is it in the DB book?

it's called Healing From Infidelity.

I resent doing his laundry, so that is out. And having him walk out on me during the week, is for sure going to stir resentment, so I imagine things dropping off my list of to-do's for him.

great! Only do what feels right to you. you might need to pause and examine your motives when you find yourself starting to do different things. Try to avoid doing things in order to elicit any certain response from him.

I do not disagree that this is the more painful route - to have this happen all right in front of you. I will check out Wayfinders thread to understand more of what I am getting into. Thank you for that suggestion. I am entering this with much trepidation. I know I can not ask him to leave, so I really have not left myself with much choice.

This was my choice too. I fully accepted the knowledge that this path would be harder on me because it had the possibility of being easier on the kids.

You might also spend some time really getting comfortable with the idea of what D might be like

No can do, I get anxiety attacks just thinking about that. I am not ready for that. Call it avoidance, I don't know - but I can not wrap my head around that processing.

If I were you I'd just keep dipping my toes in the water. Knowledge is power. Pretend you're reading about it for a friend or something. I can't emphasize enough how much better I felt once I realized I'd be OK no matter what happened with H.

May22 - can I ask? How did you move from 'he could not see you in an intimate way again? I read in your thread that you made that transition but how? My H also said he did not see me 'that' way anymore and does not touch me (I am attractive & thin) but he just won't - will go out of his way not to. What is going on in his mind? is he bizarrely being faithful to the OW? how can I get him to see me differently? I don't want to be in the friend zone.

I want to be very very clear that there is no magic wand to make your H see you in an intimate way again. In my case it has taken a very very long time and I would say we aren't even close to the finish line on this one yet. We had an SSM (I was the low desire partner) basically since having children and it was a primary factor in all of this. Over a year ago I came to the realization (things were going poorly between us but this was before I found out about the A) that i didn't want to be that person anymore, and I made a commitment to MYSELF, for myself, to change. It really had nothing to do with him. He knew about this of course because I talked to him about it, and we had sex a few times but he always felt very guilty and awful about it, I think honestly because he felt like he was being unfaithful to AP, plus guilty about me not knowing, etc. He spent months saying he could never even imagine having sex with me again, etc. Then the night he told me about the full extent of his A we ended up sleeping together.

you might read Esther Perel's books-- they helped me a lot too. She talks about distance being necessary for desire to flourish and wanting what you can't have. I do think there is something to my H turning the corner right when I finally dropped the rope and was ready to walk. I think that it all boils down to the same advice-- focus on yourself, detach, GAL. He may come back or he may not-- but you need to get yourself in a place where you know you'll be OK no matter what.

I know this is so hard. I remember reading posters on my threads saying DETACH and I was so frustrated. It is soooo much easier said than done. But you can do this! ((HUGS))

[BlueSea]

Thank you Sage and May22

- I really appreciate all the advice.

I bought MWD book "healing from infidelity" and found it very helpful. There is no hope in working on this marriage while there is a full PA/EA going on, but per MWD this is a waiting game --- 'give him the space and time to figure out his emotions and do the right thing' --- and during this time, work on myself. And there is a lot of work I need to do in this area. For one, just basically figuring out who I really am, I mean, I always have structured myself around 'what do the kids need? what needs to get done? how can I be of service?' and have lost who I am, honestly.
On the call with the DB counselor, he asked, what do YOU want to do with this time? what is your bucket list?....and I was stumped. I have no ideas. He literally pushed me til I was crying I need to do alot of introspection. Who is Misty?

The discussion with H
I pretty much told him that I would prefer he would stay while he figures things out, but I understand I can not make him stay. And that I know what this means (ie, he will be leaving at night). I can't stop him anyway. I asked him to be discreet for the kids sake.

The rest quickly went downhill and was entirely anti DB protocol - as I gave in to emotion quickly. I asked him if they were using the word love - he said no - but the hesitation I heard - meant yes. From MWDs book, this will take time to fizzle out, but I know it will. I did ask that they do not speak about me or our kids - that their relationship had to stand on its own - no 'advice' from a OW that was in a broken marriage herself (though I think she left her husband since February).

Also, I told H that I would not have any R talks with him for 2 weeks - but that I needed to hear that things were not going to change in those next 2 weeks - I need to eat and get some sleep and return to the land of the living. He was getting peeved. And did agree to that. (for what little his word is worth at this stage). I asked another q about the state of their relationship, I told him that I ruminate and torture myself and if I had to go 2 weeks without an R talk, I had to know more so I could step off. He was getting peeved and I knew I was doing more harm than good, so I told him that, and he backed off a bit. He told me he understood that - he told me that I had the advantage, he was in the house, I was the mother to his kids, that I was the 'incumbent' - she might have him for a few hours - but I had him the rest of the time.

VENT:
Those last comments, the incumbent comment, made me feel better, and I thanked him for it. I am so far from detached - this guy owns me, one look, one word - changes everything. PLEASE HELP! I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW YOU ALL DID THE DETACHING . I seriously can not GAL right now in quarantine. I am struggling on how to detach. How do you stop loving someone that you want back so badly?

I am going to resolve to figuring out how to detach like you all did - go thru the threads for info - and follow strict DB'ing for the next 2 weeks and focus on me. Figure out where I lost myself along the way.

If you are still reading or following, thank you - any comments that could bring clarity on how to detach would be so helpful. Steve and LH, I bet you have given up on me and I understand that. I am going upstream - betting it all that I am the one in a million that makes it - this way.

[LH19]

Misty,

I have not given up on you but this was very difficult to read. Are you in IC? Are you seriously in some sort of competition with this OW?

I’m not sure how I can help? Everything you wrote in your post above I would of suggested you did the opposite of what you did or said.

[BlueSea]

Are you in IC? Are you seriously in some sort of competition with this OW?

LH - I have had a couple visits to the DB counselor, but more so on what to do next, how to act, etc. No straight IC. Why do you ask? I am not in a good space for sure.

Competition? well, sure I am. Whats all this business about looking the best you can in those 37 rules, lose weight, new wardrobe, etc. Thats to have him look your way, rather than hers, right? I mean - he has us both on a scale - evaluating everything. So maybe competition is not right, but heavy comparison would be.

So LH....everything would have been different? thats hard to hear. How do I recover?