Riding the Wave 3

[wayfarer]

Sorry to hear about your Momma! You got snow yesterday? OMG! And then a big brunch? Sounds amazing.

Thank you ovrnbw, I appreciate that. Yes this is pretty typical for the upper Midwest. Usually not in to May, where I'm at, but not unheard of. And all in all it was a pretty amazing day.

I don't have the best handle on your situation. I would say to stay even tempered in regards to his actions. It's always encouraged to not mind read. I know you want to know what is going on and what it means, but it is hard to really know. Time will tell. I've been guilty of focusing on my spouse too much. I am trying to go back and continually turn that focus on to myself. It is hard sometimes. I try to remember to use my IC to make me better and not to piss and moan. But sometimes you just have have to vent too so it's not like I don't understand that.

That's not really a concern for me. I tend to play my cards very close to the vest. He crossed a lot of lines in the early days of this mess, and while I'm willing to piece myself out to him in doses, I don't really have my hopes set on any imagined future in particular. We are still very much in limbo. My arms are not wide open for a return. I'm simply receptive, cautiously hopeful and grateful for his good and/or husbandly behavior as we press on.

As far as IC shortly after H and OW split IC and I stopped spending a lot of time talking about the A or H. I update here because I don't even really talk to my supports about H any more either. We've been in this weird stalemate since quarantine started, so we're basically on week eight of "Well he stopped looking at apartments and asking if I'm financial prepared for him to leave. We have lots and lots of sex. We watch movies, play games, do puzzles, talk, and take long car rides. BUT he won't say I love you, cuddle me with any regularity, hold my hand and he's still sleeping on the couch most nights by choice." Even my best friend doesn't want to hear about it. I acknowledge that limbo is a long and arduous process, and don't really want to talk about it outside of this space if I'm not in crisis. IC says we (H and me) are in a pretty "neutral place,"and were prior to the stay at home orders, so we focus more on my mental health and what ever is on my mind that week. Lately a lot of childhood stuff, my grief, my depressive episode and my teenagers. But she likes to check in on the H situation. Or I bring up the quirky things that are nagging at me, things that I need to work through with her so I don't end up on Snapped or crying myself to sleep at night.

There's an old DB technique they used to call truth darts, and I think that is what Wooba was referrring to when she said "calling him out". Not that we need to be blunt and confrontational, but sometimes you just zip one in there.

I think the truth dart thing is something I need to work on instead of always letting him live in the reality he created for himself before and during the affair, and hoping he figures it out on his own eventually. I mean a lot of his narrative is falling apart on his own as he's trapped here with me. He's being forced to confront the fact that our MR wasn't as sh!t as he wanted to pretend it was, and neither am I as a wife, but the peripheral effects of his A seem to elude him and that might be the place I can allow myself to throw in a truth dart here and there when the situation calls for it.

Anyways, hope your Monday is full of green leaves and warm weather, not this snow...

Well we do have green leaves and sunshine. Not back up in the 70s though Thanks for the well wishes.

[wayfarer]

Hey Pommy,

So I'll try to answer this as best as I can. I know what you're dealing with right now. So I'll be thorough.

I’ve not replied on your thread for a while but when I read your updates a couple of weeks ago, I was curious to understand what is it that would tell you what you need to know, that he is recommitted? Is it verbal or are you looking for something in his actions?

Well May asked me a similar question a couple weeks ago. More along the lines of what will it take for you to let your guard down, but for me I think they are kind of one in the same.

When I was reading the end of your last post, how you were feeling when he was mentioning plans for the future, it reminded me of similar feelings you were having awhile back before this whole COVID thing happened— I think right around the time he started turning back towards you, and it threw you off your zen detachment for a bit. It seems like every time he leans in it discombobulates you a bit…. but he’s done a lot of leaning and steps toward you over these months and I wonder— just to ask you a question you’ve been asking me— have you taken a step back to see how far you’ve come? What will it take for him to do for you to open back up and drop your guard and stop being surprised when he talks about your future? Not saying there is a right answer. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

Here's my response:

As far as H leaning back in and my clear aversion to him doing so, lol, I can see how far we've come. I can see that who he is now is not the man I was dealing with when I first came here. He was so angry, and cruel, and cold. And now he's more like the man I fell in love with every day. I can see how we went from strangers to slowly finding our way back to the friends and lovers we used to be. It's unfortunate that lovers came first this time around, but c'est la vie I suppose..lol. But, there are huge hiccups that just won't let me take my walls down. H isn't in IC, and while he's tentatively agreed he doesn't want to start until he can meet that person in person. H never made it through more than one session of DC. H hasn't said he's committed to at least trying. My H didn't choose our life over OW, he got dumped, because she chose the life she built over him. I haven't heard the words I love you since November. And that was ILYB. I've gotten I love your cooking. I love when you *insert sexual act here.* I've gotten "do you need a hug?" But I haven't heard a single "I love you." I haven't heard I miss you or I missed you or I missed this. Except once again "I missed *insert sexual act here* with you." He hasn't flat out said he's not moving out. He just hasn't brought it up. He isn't openly on apartment finder any more. He's paying rent here yet again. So I'm to assume he's here at least until June, could be July, could be forever. I have no idea. I have no idea about anything that's going through his head of real substance. For now I let my walls down in doses. I enjoy the moments in the moment and if it's overwhelming I quietly retreat and deal with it alone. I don't really need him to meet all those markers. But like one or two would be really nice. TBH I don't know that I'll be able to open up fully, let my guard down and not be surprised until he comes out and says he wants to try. That he isn't running any more. That he's still not sure if this marriage is for him but he's willing to find out. Any tiny bit of actual reassurance that I'm not just a friend for the end of the world. That he is using this time to mull things over. I think that's what I'd need to let go enough for it to not hurt and recoil when he leans in.

I don't know that what a said a couple week ago is much different than what I feel I need now. I'm kind of atypical as an LBS because when he leans in I don't tend to lap it up. Which has always been the case. A-hole I can handle. Kindness and now falling back into patterns of our past relationship throws me off. I tend to go through a shame cycle of "wow you're really going to let yourself be grateful for sh!t he's supposed to be doing." And a fear cycle that's really more based in my abandonment issues. Because of my childhood I see his softening always initially as a ploy to either use me for something, or as a guilt response that he'll quit doing when he feels better. When his behavior is consistent or there's follow through I eventually talk myself out of that thinking. I've been working really hard at just accepting what he offers at face value. Not projecting my BS on to it. Not trying to mind read. Not trying to assign any meaning other than exactly what he's offering me in that moment. That's something that permeates all my relationships. That isn't unique to H or our sitch.

As far as what I need to know for sure that he's recommitting/recommitted, vs. just letting my guard down, it's gotta be words and actions.

My H isn't a BSer. I see a lot of these WH/WAH saying things to keep their LBWs on the line. Saying things because they don't like to hurt feelings. Saying things because they think it'll be a softer landing. H says what he's thinking. Even if hurts someone's feelings. Even if it leads to confrontation. Even if he changes his mind 10 min later in that moment he meant what he said. My sitch moved very quickly. He was very determined to leave our MR and our home and wasn't quiet about it. He unfortunately had more conversations about leaving me with me than he did with OW and that bit him in the behind in the end. I said it before, we didn't truly move into limbo until this break up with OW happened. I was in limbo alone until that point. I was the one undecided about our marriage. He was sure he was leaving. He was still sure he was leaving 2 weeks after the break up. He was telling me he was leaving often and loudly and openly searching for apartments. Every R conversation which I never started, he did, ended with there's nothing left for me in this M. By week 3 he stopped saying he was leaving, stopped looking for apartments, and stopped R conversations. His silence means something. When he's made a decision he'll tell me. He'll say he loves me, and he'll say he wants to try.

As far as actions. I can see he's already trying. I know he's trying. My presents for Christmas this year were him pretending to not be a jerk around our families, not telling any one who would listen that our marriage was falling apart and he wanted to leave me, and staying off his phone with OW while we did Christmas with our girls and extended families. Chocolate covered strawberries, a focus on me for the day, and a fancy take out dinner is long, long way from where we were. He checks in throughout the day. He asks if I need things before he comes home from work. He hugs me when he knows I need it. We joke. We talk. We enjoy each other's company. We are physically intimate. But he's set up his own emotional intimacy boundaries. When those start breaking down I'll know. Hand holding (which never happens). Sleeping in the bed with me (which rarely happens). Kisses, butt and boob grabs, hugs, and cuddles when the kids are around (because those only happen when the kids are completely out of eye line and ear shot). All seem inconsequential. And I'm sure in some sitches those things are still happening in crisis or are happening and they are in limbo. But those are the lines he drew. Not me. So when he knows. I'll know.

The vets always say if they are all in you'll know. He's not all in yet. He's considering it. I can see it and I can feel it.

[wayfarer]

Just journaling: Well D16 came home for a visit. H didn't take as much time for one on one as I would've liked, but I can't fix them. I have to just do what I can for us as a family they have to work out their mess together with out me. We didn't get a lot of family time in either because D17 was helping her bf move into his big boy apartment with graduation looming, and H was busy at work as he's essential. She ended up being here 2 nights instead of the 1 she initially said she was going to. I was happy for that. And H was very clearly happy to have her here. She's being friendly and sweet, more like her old self. I think she needed a reset. Usually a reset with her mom is never a good thing, but she's older and wiser now I suppose.

D17 is on the edge of 18 and her senior year, and it makes me so sad. I have no idea how these kids grew up so quickly. Watching her help her bf settle into his grown up life is just so surreal. I was only 18 when I got pregnant with her. I can't believe I have a whole almost adult.

H still not sleeping in the bed. Still no real romance I guess. Stolen kisses here and there when there are no kids around. He calls to check in. Tells me where he's going and what he's doing and when he'll be back. Calls to see if I need anything on the way home every single day. Jokes, teasing, flirting. Lots of quarantine "adult time" still.Started making dinner on Wednesdays so I can do home work. But still can't tell me what is going through his head. Patience is the name of the game I suppose. It's a marathon not a sprint.

[Pommy99]

Wayfarer, good to read your updates and that you don’t try and second guess what’s in his head. I do that far too much and it’s exhausting. It is bizarre he doesn’t want to sleep in the same bed, and I guess you haven’t asked him to as that might be seen as pressure/pursuit? Do you feel as if he’s continuing to lean in a little more?

[wayfarer]

The bed thing isn't all that bizarre. He will sleep there occasionally. Only if he can get in and out unnoticed by the kids, which he's flat out said he doesn't want to get their hopes up. I won't ask him to sleep in there with me. I mean I guess because it looks like pursuit. But also because that's how I've been handling all of this. I'm here if you want something with me come and get it, but I'm not begging you. I don't need him in my life, or in my bed. I want him there. So he's welcome to me when he likes, until I decide he's not. I told him he's more than welcome to return to the bed since he's done sleeping with other women, and left it at that. He knows. But he was raised very, very Latino. I'm only half, I had a white mom so I was raised like a white kid.

White kids have sleep overs, and can climb in bed with their parents. That doesn't happen for most Hispanic kids, you usually have to get a couple generations out before that becomes ok, or have mixed kids. No sleepovers, sometimes family, but even cousin sleep overs are rare in some families. You don't sleep in your parent's bed. You are walked back to your bed. You don't sleep in your siblings' beds. Every one has a bed to sleep in you sleep in your spot. That last one is a little more lax with girls. Sleeping next to some one means little to nothing to me. Both kids were in my bed often since I asked H to go to the couch. I sleep next to my friends on girls trips. I've slept next to almost all my family members. Had tons of sleep overs as a kid and well an adult too, lol. But sleeping together is super intimate for H. Probably more so than sex. When he does sleep with me we inevitable wake up wrapped around each other. I get confused for a second and just roll away or pull my limbs away. He gets upset. I don't want to mind read but I think it's a mix of things. How intimate it feels is clearly one for him. There's no mind reading there needed. I think the sleeping with me and having sex means the sex isn't just sex any more and in his head he's trying to spare my feelings thinking that I'll read in to it. I'll let him have that one a little. It is a little harder to define "just sex" when you wake up being spooned by the person telling you it's just sex. I think the last piece is because he still doesn't' really know what he wants sleeping next to me feels like a nail in the coffin of returning to the MR. At least that's how my IC has been interpreting it. Like that's his finish line. His point of no return. And I can see that. I do honestly hope that's the case because I don't want to have to second guess him if he decides to come back in fully. I know the whole you'll know it, see it, feel it, with no confusion. But lack of confusion doesn't really account for my in ability to trust him fully yet.

He is leaning in as he has been. I wouldn't say anything has drastically changed enough to say he's leaning in more or less. Mother's Day was huge. I wouldn't really measure or try to interpret more than that. As of right now he really likes all the aspects of being married to me, minus the commitment part, which is whatever. 3 months ago he was convinced he was going to ride off into the sunset with who he convinced himself was the one. I'm not ready to commit to the MR fully, lol. One step at a time. I still need to do more healing here. And he still needs to figure himself and the affair out a bit more. I think the pace we're on is ok. At least for now. It's upsetting that he was ready to start a whole new life with OW in 3 months but isn't ready to start over with me. But we have a lot more working against us than a shiny new fantasy life. Like reality, old resentments, super fun new resentment, having to willingly admit fault, be vulnerable, open and honest, etc, etc. All things neither one of us is really feeling like dealing with, with each other at the moment, being trapped in and all, and maybe for him something he never wants to deal with. Who knows.

[may22]

Glad things are going well with the girls. This whole lockdown thing must be so difficult for them. It's great the visit went well for D16 and hoping she is back more frequently.

H still not sleeping in the bed. Still no real romance I guess. Stolen kisses here and there when there are no kids around. He calls to check in. Tells me where he's going and what he's doing and when he'll be back. Calls to see if I need anything on the way home every single day. Jokes, teasing, flirting. Lots of quarantine "adult time" still.Started making dinner on Wednesdays so I can do home work. But still can't tell me what is going through his head. Patience is the name of the game I suppose. It's a marathon not a sprint.

Stolen kisses seem pretty romantic to me!

It's funny about the bed thing. My H came back at first so that the kids WOULDN'T find out while we were in the major limbo phase (they never knew he was regularly sleeping in the office). I've been thinking recently about how much of all of this we do or don't do is related to the children. Not freaking them out, not giving them hope, not upending their lives-- all such big, big factors. I think a lot about what would have happened if we didn't have kids. I would have left him for sure, I think-- they were the biggest factor in me not walking. But I also think that the SSM wouldn't have happened if it weren't for them. All so complicated.

I buy the coming back to the MBR as a big, final step for him. Here's my question for you-- what will you do if he just starts doing it without a conversation? Like just randomly starts sleeping in there again? That is what my H did (with a very different decision point-- more like "no need to freak out the kids if we AREN'T going to S"), but I also do think it is symbolic for them of the M in general. I had to ask my H why are you sleeping in here now (in MC I think) to get an answer.

Given how you guys have been interacting so far, I have a prediction that he'll start sleeping in there without saying anything about it and you are going to get a little freaked out when it happens! So maybe having a plan ahead of time would be good? Because you don't want to keep guessing forever-- at some point don't you want to KNOW where he stands, or at least where he thinks he stands?

[wayfarer]

Hey May,
I've definitely thought about what I would do if that happens, because I know you're right. If he does decide to come back in the bed it won't be some big ceremonious thing. He's just going to go back in there like he was never gone. Since I give the bed up to him on weekends he works (only since quarantine), since he starts at 4am when he does, he's already got an in. He just needs to set up camp and not leave. At this point if that's what does happen I'll just leave it until it's consistent, and then I'll bring it up. He'd have to be in the bed for a week or more before I'd even think about saying anything about it. At that point if he still said nothing, I'd bring it up. I do at some point want to know where he stands. I really do. But I'm kinda happy living in ignorance for the moment. I honestly don't really want to open the can of worms until he makes a real move in either direction. Or until I get sick of limbo.

[wooba]

Hey wayfarer! Just coming by to say hi. I’ve been reading your posts but don’t have much to add on your sitch. You seem to be doing relatively well. You are getting kisses and some action! I just want someone (male, preferably cute) to give me a hug!!! My H didn’t even wish me a happy Mother’s Day. So I love reading you and May’s threads and knowing that you guys are having some good moments with your Hs!

[wayfarer]

Well after months of being mostly OK today is our wedding anniversary. I was prepared. I have dinner ordered just for me. I have my whiskey ice cubes ready. I thought I'd at least be able to push through WFH today like it was going to be any other day just so I could survive until tonight. H then sent me a text " Don't think I forgot its our wedding anniversary. It's just weird for us right now, ok? " It's a moment like this where I really wish my mom was still here. I could really use a mom hug. I haven't cried like this in ages and it's miserable. I just want to get a hold of myself and go about my day as planned. Ignoring the he** out of today being a day of any significance.

[Sage4]

Oh, Wayfarer...there is no one like a mom to hug you when you are feeling like this. It’s OK to not be OK right now. To feel everything and lose yourself in grief for your mom and your marriage situation. The heart is a wonder. ❤️
You are being held from afar by people who can empathize. (((Wayfarer)))