Still Indecisive

[Core]

But every thing you've said she is not so volatile that you and your children are on the precipice of danger at any given moment. She is not telling you how worthless and useless you are. Or that no one would love you. Does she denigrate your body?Are you constantly reminded how intellectually inferior you are to her or others? Is she actively trying to separate you from any other relationships in your life? Friends? Family? Emotional abuse isn't a feeling of strain to connect. It isn't feeling that a relationship is hallow. It's a calculated process to break you down mentally and emotionally so that you will bend to the will of your abuser. That you will accept what they call love as love. That you will allow them to do what ever they please so long as they are happy no matter how horrible the effects of their choices are for you or your kids. A person can be toxic without there being abuse. A relationship can be toxic without abuse. A couple can be decidedly horrible for each other and treat each other accordingly, that does not mean it's abuse.

Your last line is what W has said a few times. That we just arent right for each other. Too toxic. I think its because of the tingly feelings she got with OM. I swear this was salvageable until she got that thrill. Compared to what you went through, I see the different and dont think its nearly as abusive. I do see some things as abuse but what a waste of my time it is to focus on those things.

But I'm 36 I have more than enough time to have my soul crushed by at least 2 or 3 more men before I give up and become a cat lady...lol.

Quoting this ^^ part as is was funny in a kind of dark way. I chuckled each time I read this. Thank you for the detail in your post. Wow I just dont know what to say yet to the rest of your post. After reading it, I soul searched and called a friend to vent. I reached the point again of thinking D or S is a must at this point. You guessed it....that was until I reread my text history with W. I finally had the nerve to go back in time. It was as hard as I expected. I did it because I was looking to validate my choice. What I saw was her trying, us being cute and using pet names. Our dreams. I came across some things I wrote after an argument....lots of shame...I sounded like I was ready to leave the M then and frankly I was getting close at the time. I was the ahole there and couldve held my composure but hurt her. Now I'm back to feeling guilty. Im reminded that I had a part to play and at least in texts, W didnt seem manipulative and covert narcissistic. It would've been much easier if that was the case. She deserves love and happiness. If I D her, will she get that? Was i that bad? Shes another hurting soul just like me, wanting peace, love and happiness. I think I finally understand the point of if you love them let them go. I want those cute moments and connections more than sex and I think she does too, just not with me. Her love died after one too many conflicts.

I'm planning out the separation. I plan on waiting out covid, trying a temp different version of IHS while a legal S processes. While were temp, we'll have enough time to hopefully get her a job, place to stay and figure out the kids situation. I dont want to hurt her by taking this step, again. She may be so far gone it wont hurt her. Thats good. I'll feel every inch of that knife sliding in to my soul. I know what items in the house I want, how to split up money fairly and I think I'm strong enough now to not cancel or end the separation this time. If W wanted this to work, there would ne some actions showing it. In the mean time, Im working on me and plan to try non toxic things I learn on W. Fun games things, not guilt or shame inducing. Maybe I can have fun with her while we do this. My mind needs to focus on my frame and to detach from hers. My fear of W and her reactions I found as a source of me being uncommunicative with her. When we eat dinner, I grasp at things to say that wont affect her and by the time I have something to say, its emotionally void. I think building a connection by being funny and interesting while giving R space may make this easier on us both. I have income planned out sans whatever daycare will look like. I think I'll have to pay W to watch them for a term till we find someone to take them in. Living relatives locally wont.

I want a W for companionship, cuddles, cute messages and bedroom fun. After all this though I dunno if I want to ever remarry, yet those wants I have cant really be achieved dating. What i want in life with a woman its looks like I may never have again. At least I had it once. I knew I should've forwarded all those stupid chain emails from grandparents which warned of curses to your love life if you dont send them to 10 people.

Im closer to feeling whole without W but its still lonely. Kisses in the morning, at night, some time together, thats the good life. Why so many people throw it away for something new is beyond me.

[IronWill]

Hey Core -

I'm sorry you're going through such a rough time. These situations aren't for the faint of heart.

I suggest again that you go back and re-read all the advice you've gotten along the way. I saw you post that it takes a long time for you to start "getting things". I used to feel the same way. So you know what I did? I re-read everything over and over and over again, and then again, and then yet again. That's the great thing about DB forum - it's all here for you any time you want.

It's your choice to stand or walk away. I made a decision to stand. I made a decision to DB. I made a decision to give it everything I had. That was the easy part. What followed and what is still following has been very very challenging and I do not know what the future will bring.

I am here to tell you that it is possible to do this for a year or more. I've been iHS for 15 months and my sit is 20 months in. It has been hard, it still is hard, and it will be hard. Nothing about it is easy. But it is my choice. As it is yours.

So figure out what you want to do. That's the first thing.

Are you standing?

Take your time - take a LOT of time (you have plenty of that right now anyway, right?) and think about it rationally, not emotionally.

Take care - stay strong

[Traveler]

"its adorable how she always knows when im eating" or "that was interesting when x and x happened, what did you think of the movie?". W just ignores.

There's a simple solution, the same she's exercising. When she doesn't want to talk to you, she doesn't talk to you. When you don't want to talk to her, don't talk to her. I find certain people frustrating to talk to, so I talk to them less often, usually when I'm well-rested and my mental reserves are high.

She doesn't "owe" you a kind response or any response--consider before speaking she may ignore you and she may invalidate you. Do you still want to say whatever it is you're about to say?

Ignoring her - I see on one end that it can help me avoid a conflict or emotional pain, as well as show I have standards and value, on the other end it wouldn't it increase resentment? We've chatted maybe 10 times since quarantine started with no kids around. I risk D4 seeing a H ignoring W as normal. Thinking through this one more.

I could have written that more clearly. I'm not recommending you mirror her behavior of ignoring you. I'm recommended you mirror her behavior of initiating fewer conversations, and of engaging in fewer conversations (short replies), especially when your mental reserves are low enough that you have expectations and no-response or an invalidating response would throw you into a tailspin.

In terms of what D4 would witness, instead of D4 seeing H frequently trying to talk to W and being ignored or rebuffed, D4 will see H trying to talk to W and being ignored or rebuffed and then H talks to W less often.

[may22]

Core,

It seems like you're still spinning. You have so many expectations of what your W should or shouldn't do and it seems like you feel a little bit victimized here. What can you do to remove yourself from this cycle?

You aren't wasting your time. You have beautiful children that you both love dearly and you have them 100% of the time. Cherish this! Focus on them and make sure they know how much they are loved. Put your energy there and quit worrying about whether or not your W is cuddly and intimate with you. She's not. She may never be again. None of that is within your control. All you can control is YOU. Take what is positive in this situation and focus your energy there, and stop worrying about what you don't control and what you think you deserve and you don't have.

You don't need to convince anyone if you decide you want a D. That is 100% your call and no-one on this board is going to judge you. But you also don't need anyone here to justify your decision one way or another either. Decide what is best for you and your kids and go down that path. You can always change your mind again going forward-- all of the paths in front of you, like all of us, are long and arduous and things will continue to shift, get harder, get easier. But I think you will be able to relax and center yourself a bit more if you can focus on what you HAVE right now, not what you don't.

[Core]

I suggest again that you go back and re-read all the advice you've gotten along the way. I saw you post that it takes a long time for you to start "getting things". I used to feel the same way. So you know what I did? I re-read everything over and over and over again, and then again, and then yet again. That's the great thing about DB forum - it's all here for you any time you want.

It's your choice to stand or walk away. I made a decision to stand. I made a decision to DB. I made a decision to give it everything I had. That was the easy part. What followed and what is still following has been very very challenging and I do not know what the future will bring.

I am here to tell you that it is possible to do this for a year or more. I've been iHS for 15 months and my sit is 20 months in. It has been hard, it still is hard, and it will be hard. Nothing about it is easy. But it is my choice. As it is yours.

So figure out what you want to do. That's the first thing.

Are you standing?

I still cannot believe how far in to your sitch you are. You make a good point on rereading my threads. Im honestly thinking about how disgusted I'll be at how much I've spun or perhaps feeling the feelings I felt at those times again. How different are you now that you were on day 1 and how different is your sitch?

She doesn't "owe" you a kind response or any response--consider before speaking she may ignore you and she may invalidate you. Do you still want to say whatever it is you're about to say?

If thats the case, at the rate were going, I'll never talk to her again. I'm only partially joking here.

I could have written that more clearly. I'm not recommending you mirror her behavior of ignoring you. I'm recommended you mirror her behavior of initiating fewer conversations, and of engaging in fewer conversations (short replies), especially when your mental reserves are low enough that you have expectations and no-response or an invalidating response would throw you into a tailspin.

In terms of what D4 would witness, instead of D4 seeing H frequently trying to talk to W and being ignored or rebuffed, D4 will see H trying to talk to W and being ignored or rebuffed and then H talks to W less often.

Thats makes alot of sense. Thank you for clarifying. Me talking more and me talking less seems to have no affect sitch wise so I might as well conserve the energy.

It seems like you're still spinning. You have so many expectations of what your W should or shouldn't do and it seems like you feel a little bit victimized here. What can you do to remove yourself from this cycle?

Yes, yes and yes. The spinning continues, I expect at least nontoxic interactions with W as she is the one pulling away, asking for more time. I shouldnt have expectations, I get she's going through a lot. Possibly the only way to end this cycle is to remove myself from the sitch, which would mean filing. I'm tried one last psuedo science thing to help for the time being and I think it has worked.

You aren't wasting your time. You have beautiful children that you both love dearly and you have them 100% of the time. Cherish this! Focus on them and make sure they know how much they are loved. Put your energy there and quit worrying about whether or not your W is cuddly and intimate with you. She's not. She may never be again. None of that is within your control. All you can control is YOU. Take what is positive in this situation and focus your energy there, and stop worrying about what you don't control and what you think you deserve and you don't have.

This instantly took the edge off. I think it was the "You arent wasting your time line". Whatever it was, thank you. I'm looking at D4 now and cherishing the moment. They grow too quickly. One of my fears has been...will I look back and regret not filing right away. Seeing as I have almost everyday with the kids, I dont think I'll have regrets.

You don't need to convince anyone if you decide you want a D. That is 100% your call and no-one on this board is going to judge you. But you also don't need anyone here to justify your decision one way or another either. Decide what is best for you and your kids and go down that path. You can always change your mind again going forward-- all of the paths in front of you, like all of us, are long and arduous and things will continue to shift, get harder, get easier. But I think you will be able to relax and center yourself a bit more if you can focus on what you HAVE right now, not what you don't.

I wish divorce laws were different. This would be a little bit easier if I knew I wouldnt be destroyed in the divorce. Outside of my control though, at least I know what it'll look like.

Thank you all for stopping by and commenting.

[Core]

I dont know if its the last couple series of posts, if Im spinning still or what but I'm solid today. Im thankful for the comments as I know they have a positive affect one way or another.

I came across a symbol of a Viking and though, Im showing none of the strength of dudes like those ancient gents. Ive wasted so much time complaining and thinking about W. Its been said 100 times and I even thought I was there a few times but now I have a different sense of my focus being on me and the kids. I gotta keep it here. I'm feeling great today and took advantage of doing a whole bunch of mental exercises including some stuff that helped me in my teens. It got me aligned for the time.

Mays comment really resonated as well...im not wasting my time. I'm having a good time with the kids and can enjoy my current home that was worked so hard for. I wrote out what I think unspun me so I can follow my way back if I go off track again. Even if W can take half or more of what I work on for the time being, its still better than having none of it. Also, I can control her taking my time, my energy as others have mentioned. Sitting being a victim to W gets me nowhere. I started doing things I wanted around the house (like weeding our garden) which she has told me she wants me to not do as part of her control. I dont do it the way she likes, she says. Im not doing it to egg her on, but because I like doing it. I'm pretty sure I got passive aggressively punished for this as our family room Mr and Mrs decorative figures have been removed from their shelf and replaced with nothing. This wouldve spun me in the past. This time Im just thinking of what I can fill on the shelf.

I got a plan for my next spin and am currently ok in my sitch as it is. Hopefully with continued effort this mindset sticks.

[Core]

The peace already ended, I found a way to spin again but it seems helpful. Its like everything is coming together now. I'll explain - my M seemed to end earlier than many here. My sitch seems different than most sitches with affairs. Why is that? For an EA, logically and even emotionally for many people, returning to a H whom is working hard on himself and a loving, prosperous family with very young children seems like a choice not hard to make. This is different though.

The difference is, it wasnt just a coworker, or a one night thing or a new friend whom she fell for. No, she rekindled the flame with her first love. This is meant to be for them. Look at the romance story here...lovers separated over the years by a whole state, by spouses, by time. All those things couldnt keep them apart. Nope, they were destined by god himself to come back in to each others lives. And look how quickly they bonded, proof from almighty himself that this is what destiny had in store.

My thoughts in W perspective - Keep it secret for now, let H think he is the problem, and D him. It was never true love with H, nope. OM is the one and only who was thought of and followed on social media along the years. My marriage is unhappy now, H is unhappy, he'll certainly accept the D. OM has a bond already, a bond formed in teenage years. Thats why W turned in to a teenager. My take, it was all so easy for W until I explained my love, showed effort, refused to leave my house and until it was obvious that I would be in the picture until I pass later in life. The kids cant cross states lies, OM cant be seen. What to do, what to do for W. OM is destiny, the one W probably feels she shouldve been with all along. When I wasnt him she nagged, criticized and pulled away.

She was never 100 percent in to us as she always had feelings for him. My whole time with her has been a lie. See I asked a few times about this guy specifically and past boyfriends to see if she had any feelings. No she told me, he was never more than a friend, we tried to be a couple but chose to remain friends, she said. They never ended their relationship.

Now they want to pick it back up but theres a problem.....me. I think W wants me to die or give up so she can have her dream. Whats messed up is I had dreams before her. I wanted a woman with no ties to other men, to grow old with. I wanted to move to Europe. W said she had no ties and had the same dream. Oh how wonderful it seemed. It was a lie. OM in the background waiting. He and W didnt know better, they couldnt have. It wasnt on purpose. They have a match made in heaven and im just a roadblock, stopping their happiness. If Im gone then W can move and have her original dream.

I want to think I'm bitter, vengeful, angry or delusional here but I dont think I am. Are you reading this thinking Im crazy though? Please let me know. I'm embarassed to write this out and be vulnerable to you here and dont want those rooting for me to think I lost my mind. Look up the studies of people who rekindle romance with their first loves of relationships that didnt end in pain. The success rate is astounding and their D rate is low. Like .4 percent versus 40 percent plus of other couples.

Job told me they needed to burn out their passion and grow apart. I think my actions stopped that. It didnt burn out. She wants OM. She will always have something for him unless it burns out. That is unfortunate for all of us. Her and I can never 100 percent connect. Her and OM can never 100 percent connect. W being the first woman I truly loved, I can never 100 percent connect with a future W. As long as this love triangle exists, were all going to hurt. I wish W didnt lie or knew better about her feelings for OM early on. I shouldve still seen the red flag.

The solution is outside of the control to all of us however I think W is unconsciously causing me stress. Maybe to put me in a grave and be in her fairy tale. My future doesnt look bright if I'm correct. I need to separate from W when quarantine lifts. My hope is for us all to find peace in this, even OM as much as I dont like him. We all should be happy in this life and cant right now. W Maybe is the happiest with two men loving her and me with zero women loving me. Maybe it did burn out already but i dont believe it. I want to love and be loved 100 percent. Those reading this, if you have ties to a former lover, did you or have you loved your new one with your whole self?

[KitCat]

The thing about high school romance - it ended for a reason. They both grew beyond each other. They are just trying recreate a previous life.

I dated someone as an adult that I knew from high school. It was awesome and fun and fizzled. We are still friends to this day. Now I didn't leave a relationship to pursue this person.

But, I did stay in contact limited with him and it always made my H angry. After reading your post I now see why it did. I mean I would never have left my H for this guy... EVER. But, I should have respected my H better.

Anyway I can feel your pain. H's OW is a person he also went to High School with though I don't feel they ever dated. But he is also reliving all his old glory days in hanging out with old HS friends. That is his journey to take. Not sure if he will come back or not.

[Ginger1]

Core, you need to put a halt on the spin cycle. You realize in this mini drama you formulated , you said your W wants to stress you to death to get rid of the romance that is written in the stars?

You are stressing yourself to death, core. Spin that focus back around on you and not some concocted romance /mystery/murder novel and that’s where you will stop spinning. Heck, all of our spouses were trying to kill us with stress is that was the case!

You just keep playing victim and spinning out of control . Stop. Man up and live your best freakin’ life . And stop giving your ex so much power and take it back!

[wayfarer]

Job was right. You put up another barrier for Romeo and Juliet and by not letting the affair run it's course you created an unnecessary longing. You from the beginning have gotten in your own way, and continue to do so. Because you can't not be in control. You can't accept the idea that some people have affairs, and that [censored], but marriages recover all the time from them. An some don't and that's ok too. Or that WS need time and space to heal themselves and recover from an affair outside of their marriage recovery. You've convinced yourself you are the only one who's in pain. I have been a WW. And I always tell people with the caveat that my exH was a dumpster fire. I had known my AP since I was 16 years old. I never once loved that man more than as a friend, not for a minute. But he sure as hell made me feel something. And I hadn't felt much in a very, very long time. While my exH was the human equivalent of hot garbage water for the most part that was irrelevant. I was not ok, with or without his influence. That affair was a filling a lot of needs and holes in my life. Most of which, looking back, I could've filled with healthier options, but it's what was available, and I was in pain. WS/WAS need to be treated with empathy if you want to stick it out. If you don't take all the scorn you have and throw it in their direction by any means. But MLC or not a WS/WAS is not ok. They are hurting They are lost. They are empty. They are searching. They are a lot of things you don't understand, because they aren't telling you. And I'm going to be honest, while some LBS are just getting the brunt of an emotionally stunted person some LBS are not a soft place to fall for their spouse. That WS/WAS never told their LBS a thing for a reason and it wasn't always because they didn't want to get caught. The omission usually starts far before there's an EA or a PA. Because it's just easier.

Next my H cheated on me with an old GF. A girl he had dated sporadically over the years. 11 years ago, 9 years ago, and 7 years ago. 7 years ago, where he was dating both her and I. But in the end I some how ended up with him. And we moved in together. And got engaged, and he made a huge public deal of it. Then we had the big white wedding. And almost 3 years in to the marriage he saw OW at a funeral and convinced himself he missed his chance. They were star crossed lovers. She being in a rocky relationship pursued him. And he went running straight into her arms. But as soon as he went all in she was already starting to back out. She wasn't ready to start a whole new life with H even though H had convinced himself that was what was going to happen. He was going to leave. He was going to leave me and the life we created, He was going to get it right, because clearly I wasn't the right one for him. It was all fate. It took her almost 2 weeks of slowly breaking up with to finally get to a head and drop him bluntly and dramatically. H was ready to go apartment shopping with OW. OW kept trying to avoid it. H not reading the writing on the wall for weeks wasn't seeing that. And OW snapped. Told him she was never in this the way he was. And that he needs to accept that. That what they had was supposed to just be a break, an escape but she never really stopped loving her live in BF. And that she didn't really believe H stopped loving me. And that she's done with this, she's going back to her bf, and he should just go home to his W, me. My kids aren't tiny. They are practically out of the house. And one of them isn't even biologically mine. D16 is his. My H was actually convinced his affair was fate. His words. Not mine. I have to actually over come the imaginary scenario you've created here. H spent months convincing himself that our MR was sh** and that I was a horrible controlling, over bearing, negative, belittling kind of wife. He had repeatedly told OW these things. Over and over. Until he believed them, well because he had to. If he didn't believe them he was 100% the a-hole here.

I own 50% of our problems before the affair. I'm super A type and that makes me a difficult person in general. I cant imagine it makes me a super easy going partner. But his affair was 100% him. Him trying to escape himself. And his feeling. And things that were bubbling up that he didn't want to deal with. I watched him for 9 months before this all started and I could see he was drowning but there was nothing I could do because I was drowning in my own depression. I don't think for a second anything he did was to intentionally hurt me. Because I know it wasn't. It had absolutely nothing to do with me even if he said it did. Even if he convinced himself it did. I know this because I was him. I work on forgiving him every day whether we work this out or not because I know he needs that. And honestly I need it to. I work on me because even if he leaves I can't keep dragging my baggage and BS in to the next relationship and the next and the next. I worry about me because I can't make him go to IC or MC. Or love me. Or want to commit. I can only be a lighthouse. That's it. I'm here when he's ready. Warm, steady, standing tall. I have no idea how any of this is going to end. But I have to focus on what I can control here and that's me.

You can keep making up stories in your head about how you think all this is going to play out but I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing with not just mind reading but full on story telling. Your W is not trying to kill you. My god. I say this with as much compassion as I can, it's just not that serious, bro. It's not. You are making this far more dramatic and a billion times worse than it has to be. Your W isn't causing you stress. You are. You have always been the one causing you stress, and anxiety and pain. She isn't in control of you. You are in control of you. I've told you this dozens of times at this point. She only can influence what you allow her to. And you literally allow her to influence you at every moment. I've told you this before you don't have to stand, no one says you do. But you will not survive a divorce with this woman if you can't get a hold of yourself. You keep thinking divorce is the quick and simple solution here. It's not. You have to co-parent forever with her. You think separate households will magically make things better, because you don't have to look at her. My H and I get into it with our exes all the time. My exH and I have reached a semi-truce other than his little Christmas outburst. However, I can tell there have been times he has crossed the line so far with our daughter I was ready to catch a case, but I was able to step back long enough to see he was sweeping me up in his whirlwind of crazy. I just had to stop and exit if I didn't want to deal with it. DBing is a set of survival skills. Coping mechanisms. You will literally not mentally survive life going forward with your W regardless of your path if you can't implement and constantly work towards DBing principles. You need to connect with your IC. And you desperately need to work on your anxiety and coping.