No changes on WAW - Pack_19 Part II

[Pack_19]

[quote][quote]Originally Posted by sandi2


The other spouse should not text the LBS wanting photos of the kids, asking the LBS if the kids are okay (as if the LBS is incapable of taking care of them). The LBS should not respond to any photos or funnies the other spouse sends. This may feel too rigged for some newcomers, but once the other spouse stops dumping garbage on the LBS and consistently acts civil, then the LBS can always lighten up a little........so to speak.

Sandi you know I have struggled with this so much. Many of the reasons my WAW gave me were lack of intimacy and support as well as lack of time alone when my attention is 100% on her. This means to show her the changes when she initiates contact, such as sending me a picture of S1, I respond nicely and in a loving way. However, it is when I show myself confident, happy, strong and busy when I see her looking back. It has taken me months to learn a basic truth but oh boy is it true.

So I left the children yesterday with her and I am seriously surprised how well I validated her. Our conversation revolved around these topics.

> She told me she wants to go back to the separation agreement and have the children longer for the sake of stability. She went on to talk about how she probably missed them more and could sacrifice herself more for them because sometimes I go running and leave them with my sister and she has all the maternal instinct.

I calmly told her I miss them same or more but that I understand what for her is now stability and routine. I told her I signed that agreement on a very poor emotional situation and I no longer believe in it I said I want us to be a family and happy and I am willing to put on the work but she has chosen divorce and missing the children half our lives is our future if we go along that path. I told her traveling for work or going out to exercise does not make me less of a devoted father.

> She insisted that I have not changed and that if I really love her I need professional psychiatrist help because it is not normal to hurt someone you love so much.

I told her I am receiving professional help because I am very serious about being a new, better and happy man in this new stage of my life. I said it is no excuse or justification but I have had many issues with money in my previous years. I was negative and focused on making money to improve the life of our kids, I am sorry I behaved that way and I understand her suffering and if the future has a chance for us I will make sure I make it up to her.

> She told me, tears in her eyes, there is no need to compensate, just to truly love. Then she went on to repeat all things I did wrong in our early marriage.

I validated her, I told her I was not proud of the man I was and I do not want to go there again.

> She made a comment that I understand our separation was necessary.

I agreed

> She said my jealousy was an issue and she was free to be with anyone she wanted if not with me.

I told her I was immature and only wanted to know if her heart was in a place where she could feel love for me again. But of course she is free to do all she pleases

> before leaving she said she cannot be with me all of a sudden, she said she would only give us a chance because of the children.

I told her if ever she felt she could work on the M, I would make sure to take it slowly and towards a new, different relationship. I kissed my children goodbye and walked away feeling proud of all I am learning here.

I could feel she did not want to leave, she was emotional towards me and she came closer to me when talking (it is WILDLY incredible what self respect and distance make for the LBS). However, I woke up today feeling an idiot and crying this morning. I saw some light, but it was an illusion. I do not want a chance because of my children, I want her to know I am her best option, full stop and I will not be a part time father no matter what she thinks stability means. Sometimes I feel she just wont let her come back to me because of pride, what a shame for our two little demons.

Back to GAL, self respect and letting her go. I think she is starting to get a taste of what divorce means and it is not sweet, I will let her swallow it alone.

Btw, you are the professional help I meant, my psychologist in Munich was only focused on making me happy in a life without W as if I was dependent on her and I did not enjoy it. To me is experience what makes a professional and this is a place full of experience. Please keep helping me and commenting here.

Why do I get blocked when she talks to me and then all comes so clear in my mind the day after?

I guess I need more healing, space and boundaries. On a side note, I think W liked my new clothes

[BenB]

Paco, I'm not one of the experts here so I avoid giving clear advice except for maybe mentioning what has worked for me in this process. But didn't you just tell her, in other words, that you will be there for her and take her back when and if she ever feels like it? The vets can correct me if I'm wrong but to me this conversation you had sounded like you let her know that you will be her plan B forever and that is not a good position to be in. The conversation also sounds like it's way too long.

[Pack_19]

hi BenB!

Yes, I have been thinking the whole day about how pathetic I have been and how I made that very same mistake, hi my new name is safetyNet!

Yes so my new clothes are attractive but my attitude kills it all. I need to reevaluate my position and the things under my control. this back and forth is the worst, I have just spent an afternoon I should have been working throwing myself a big fat pity party. You know the worst was listening to how I am 100% at blame again and she went as far as to say please tell me my mistakes I want to learn them to change them. To that I said look I am not here to tell you that, all I want now is to identify and change my mistakes.

I am the worst DBer on earth, but I will get there!

thanks for your reply Ben, the good thing is that now 2 days after these interactions happen I can dissect how and where I went wrong, I need to get to the point where I KNOW IT BEFORE I MAKE THE MISTAKE!

hugs! Paco

[Traveler]

Hi Paco, I'm going to ask you a silly question--when did you feel you validated her? What does validation mean to you? Validation's an interesting topic so often confused with agreement, there's a whole thread on here trying to differentiate the two! On a 1-10 scale, how would you self-score, "I calmly told her I miss them same or more but that I understand what for her is now stability and routine"?

[sandi2]

I wrote a big post, responding to every play-by-play in your previous update, then felt I was being too hard on you, and deleted it.

I told her if ever she felt she could work on the M, I would make sure to take it slowly and towards a new, different relationship. I kissed my children goodbye and walked away feeling proud of all I am learning here.

I could feel she did not want to leave, she was emotional towards me and she came closer to me when talking (it is WILDLY incredible what self respect and distance make for the LBS).

Honestly, I didn't see much difference in this conversation than in other times you apologized, admitted your mistakes, and tried to validate. You responded, by using too many words (which I can certainly relate to that problem). Now, I'm just a former WW, but it's hard to understand why you continue to allow emotionally charged bashing. What was said this time that hasn't been said previously?

You say you walked away feeling proud of all you are learning here. I am glad you feel you are learning, but I'll confess I'm a little frustrated b/c I don't see how it was applied. Last time, I thought you swore off these type of interactions with her. Look Pack, I suggest the feelings you experienced while walking away, were more an emotional release than pride. You and I are talkers. That's how we work things out, and it's difficult to see any other way to find a solution. So, I get it. I always feel better, too, but it doesn't mean the talk was effective. The last statement in your quote above is not what I was seeing in the conversation with her, but I know I was not there to witness it first hand. I saw no difference in her, than previously......but maybe you could. Can you say how long you have you been distant with her?

However, I woke up today feeling an idiot and crying this morning. I saw some light, but it was an illusion.

(((Pack))) These feelings are growing pains. The difference in how you saw the situation and how I saw it, is that you were looking with your heart. Now, it sounds very sweet when I word it that way, but actually it's those emotions that can trick us into seeing what we want to see. It holds the LBH back in the DB process. I'm not saying you have to stop loving her, but you've got to stop repeating these old patterns. That's why we talk so much about DBing detaching. As long as your emotions are leading, the more vulnerable you will be, even to the point of not seeing clearly.

[Pack_19]

Hi Paco, I'm going to ask you a silly question--when did you feel you validated her? What does validation mean to you? Validation's an interesting topic so often confused with agreement, there's a whole thread on here trying to differentiate the two! On a 1-10 scale, how would you self-score, "I calmly told her I miss them same or more but that I understand what for her is now stability and routine"?

hi CW! I could feel she is coming from this selfish place where her routine and peace is what she understand should be a peacefully routine. I truly thought I was validating her feelings because then she went on to speak about how much we used to argue when leaving together and I could sense she has suffered that. I don't know, maybe you guys are right and I cannot validate properly. I stopped trying to read into every detail like I was doing at the beginning of this and just wanted to answer to her in a way that expresses my values.

The truth is inside myself I was shocked and offended. I was thinking, is this woman seriously telling me is better for my children to be picked up by a nanny than by their father because is the agreement we signed and is no longer valid? is she really implying that because I leave them with my sister to go running for 30 min I am less of a parent than she is?

Please help me, I could really sense she was calm and wanted to talk to me and I kind of let myself enjoy the moment. Maybe I was wrong, I need to show a strong man who walks away happily ALL THE TIMES.

[Pack_19]

I wrote a big post, responding to every play-by-play in your previous update, then felt I was being too hard on you, and deleted it.

Please shoot Sandi, I am here to learn and you have been my guiding light since the beginning. I am ready to listen to my mistakes and be the man I want to be and work hard to be that man.

What was said this time that hasn't been said previously?

Nothing, she told me I need professional help and she told me I must realize the separation was necessary. I validated those or at least I think I did. That was all novelty. It really hurt to hear her say if we have a chance if for the sake of the kids, is like "you cannot make me happy but for the sake of our 2 children I could settle for you" - I'm pathetic

You say you walked away feeling proud of all you are learning here. I am glad you feel you are learning, but I'll confess I'm a little frustrated b/c I don't see how it was applied. Last time, I thought you swore off these type of interactions with her. Look Pack, I suggest the feelings you experienced while walking away, were more an emotional release than pride. You and I are talkers. That's how we work things out, and it's difficult to see any other way to find a solution. So, I get it. I always feel better, too, but it doesn't mean the talk was effective. The last statement in your quote above is not what I was seeing in the conversation with her, but I know I was not there to witness it first hand. I saw no difference in her, than previously......but maybe you could. Can you say how long you have you been distant with her?

I really felt I could understand her pain and frustration on previous years when she would ask me to change and analyze our situation and I felt l was validating her, maybe I was not, I don't know.

I always feel a big area where I failed was that intimacy and time when the focus is 100% on her (as we spoke about on my first posts) that I did not deliver at home and when these opportunities come up I try to show love on that way and enjoy them. At the same time I only saw reaction from her when I walked away quickly after picking up the children. I think, correct me if I am wrong, you are trying to tell me I have never properly detached to a point that I limit my interactions to business alike with her, work on my changes for me and start showing her how much I value myself so that MAYBE one day she can see what she will be missing. You are right, I have always said I am not there and I feel like I am failing to fight for the most important thing in my life or at least I still have a long way to go. I would say I have been distant since early April, not much but I make the best to stay busy with exercise, work, friends and the children.

I am trying to set my boundaries but all has to be her way and don't you dare walking on me or I will use one of those hurtful comments that I know get to you. I just want her to be happy but above all I want to find my happiness back, alone and with my children, but she is a crazy roller coaster. When this all begun she said "you are selfish because you have chosen your work above your children" and now that I managed to change teams, I torn down all my life in Germany and I am here asking for 50% custody "oh you have a job where you need to travel and I will never expect you to leave it, that would be out of common sense". She is just finding excuses to make it all perfect for her and then comes my favorite sentence "I am crying everyday, I do not like this, but it is the best we can have".

@ Sandi, I need to cut conversation right? I need to give her a taste of the life she has chosen, where I am not present and she is losing a valuable man. I do talk a lot and talking is not needed now, is action.

She has asked me to talk this Thursday when I come get the children but it is always the same way, we talk in the door to her building as if we are two poor teenagers without a quiet place to chat. I dont want to talk, these conversations dont help. They make me believe there is something where there is nothing and leads her to think I am still here for whenever she decides to stop playing selfish-happy princess. What should I do? should I PM her that I do not want to talk, only pick up my children or just come there get my children and leave? What if she genuinely has thoughts about opening up and talking to me?

Thanks for your post, I really appreciate your help. Please Sandi have no mercy on me, I can guarantee I am stubborn but also a good learner. ((hugs)) Packs

[Traveler]

Hi Paco,

I get feeling upset she believes she misses the kids more and would sacrifice more for them, given the context of where she's taking the family relationship. You exercised restraint.

Validating shows you understand her feelings. "I can see you miss them when they're away, and you especially hurt when you can't see them and I've left them in someone else's care." Validation doesn't imply agreement that she misses them more, has more parental instinct, or your going for short runs is an error. You don't have to validate, but "I miss them same or more" sounds more like disagreement than validation.

[Traveler]

She made a comment that I understand our separation was necessary.

I agreed

I must realize the separation was necessary. I validated those or at least I think I did.

Agreeing separation was necessary does validate her. If that's your position--if you'd go back in time and say, "Paco and Paco's W, I'm you from the year 2020! With hindsight you two SHOULD separate"--agreeing is sensible. Note, you can also validate her without agreeing with her.

When you agree with someone's thoughts or feelings, you essentially take it on as your own. If I were to show you a ball and say, "The ball is blue" and you agreed with me, you would be saying that you also believe the ball to be blue.

Validating someone's thoughts or feelings is something used quite frequently in psychology and counseling, and is regarded by some to be a bit of an advanced communications skill that really relies on active listening.

By definition, you validate someone's thoughts or feelings by acknowledging that they make sense and you understand where they are coming from. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to take them on as your own. Additionally, it doesn't require you to actually defend someone's thoughts or feelings, but it does help during the communication for you to go over some of the reasons as to why they might think or feel the way they do.

[Pack_19]

hi again CW! Yes I did not mean to agree that she misses them. She complaint that sometimes I am not available and she is missing them awfully and I said I understood but I had been terrible busy with work, them and my life and my intention was never to reduce the amount of contact she gets while they are with me. I guess I did come up a bit argumentative, I need to work on that. I understand her feelings and then I move on, listen and move on.

Thanks a lot for the post on validation! I have some reading to do tonight! Thanks a lot CW! ((hugs))