And then it was over.

[job]

Misty,

He is the only one that can control that timeline. You have to remember that you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him, nor can you control the length of time is required for him to figure himself out. I, personally, do not like to reference statistics because we can only say what we see here and what the "experts" write about IRL. However, if given enough time and space, you have a 50/50 chance of him waking himself up and realizing that the grass isn't greener on the other side. Now, you have to also consider that after a period of time and you've adjusted to living your own life and rediscovering the person that you were long ago, you may just opt not to take him back. Many come to realize that once they have rediscovered the person that they put up on a shelf to marry the spouse, and they like that former person, they just might decide that they would prefer to venture forth into the future on their own or meet up w/someone much, much better suited to the new and improved self. I've seen that happen many times over both here and IRL.

You really do need to stop discussing the future and the relationship w/him. Right now, he's trying to find that much needed space to figure himself out. The more you discuss the relationship w/him, the more his attention isn't focused on him and why he feels the way that he does. Trust me, the more you push for answers, the less you will get in the way of responses.

We provide the same advice to both the WAS and the MLCer...time, space and no relationship talks. You need to keep the focus on you and what you need to do to improve those areas of your "self" that you think need improvement. Improvements are to be made for you and not to try to win him back. Also, really listen to what he says. You can sift through the comments and you might discover some helpful tidbits.

Again, no relationship talks, stop pushing for answers...he can't provide them right now, focus on you and most importantly dig deeper for patience. This is not a sprint...but a marathon and it will take as long as it takes for him to realize that the grass isn't greener over on the other side of the fence. The more determined he will be to run the other way.

[SteveLW]

LH19 - Okay... time. Can I get some perspective on this? Do they go for a couple months, or a year? Does anyone have info on the statistics of WAS' coming back after they leave?

I found out from the counselor that the H is only focused on using this counseling for ways to make our post divorce co-parenting better. From the counselor: "You don’t have to mull this over, (H) is really clear that his goal is to make you better co-parents post divorce. Nothing is going to change that in the next 48 hours. This process is an opportunity for you to show up better than he expects, challenge his negative beliefs about you as you work together to improve these skills."

I did talk to H - and let him know I am 100% vested in pure marriage counseling - after all I chose the DB counselors as this is all about Divorce busting, right? Focusing on 'communication, trust, conflict resolution' right now is like throwing a glass of water on someone that is completely on fire - not going to help.

H says he realizes I am 'fighting for my life'. I asked him if he is even trying - he said no. I asked him then why is he still here? he says this is him being open-minded. I asked him for clarification, he said he was here and that shows something, that he is being open-minded to a possibility of things changing. Is he playing me?

He continues to say he believes he has no chance of being happy here - of course I tell him that everything ebbs and flows and granted we are in a lull but things will ebb back...and he just has to wait to try this out - fully. That happiness takes effort on his part, the grass is greener on the side you water...I listened.

Surprisingly he asked, would I still be with him if it had nothing to do with the kids? That rocked me, because of course I would! I love him for him - not for the sake of holding this family together. How could he not know this?

We talked and he seems deeply conflicted. He actually told me he felt guilty for keeping me from moving on to someone that would love me like I love him. I told him, to not make me an excuse/reason as to why he needs to leave. I asked him why he is so unkind, he said because he thinks its leading me on if he is nice to me. I am not seeing the forest for the trees - Please translate all this straight up. He acts conflicted, so I think there is hope - if I ask if there is even a 'glimmer' of hope - he will say yes - he is being open-minded. And the fact he is doing the counseling adds to my confusion.

much thanks - my DB counselor keeps telling me there is a good guy buried deep in there. This is encouraging to me. But maybe this is from the MLC side. What about the WAS side?

Wow. So much focus on him. You'll never ever make progress with this much focus on him. You have to bear down and forget about him. He's making choices that are selfish and are not in the best interest of those he is supposed to love. If he had acted like this when you first met him you would have told him to kick rocks. But now you're willing to put up with it. Ever stop to ask yourself why? I know you'd say you love him, but romantic love is not unconditional. There are things he could do that would cause you to toss him on his butt. Where is that line? Apparently he hasn't crossed that line yet, right?

But what if you were friends with someone and their husband was behaving this way? Would you tell her to hold onto him for dear life? Would you tell her to put 100% of her focus and energy into him?
Sometimes when we are too close to our own situation to see it clearly and to realize what our instincts tell us and what we feel is natural to do is actually wrong.

I like to use the analogy of eating until you are full. Over full even. Then having someone try to get you to eat something. We've all been there. You get done eating, go to someone's house and they try to feed you more. It's annoying. Well your WAH has told you he is full of you and you continue to try to feed him more of you. Do you think that helps you or hurts you? What you have to do is pull back completely, make him miss you and get hungry again, and then he'll come looking for you. People want what they can't have. You should become what he can no longer have.

Stop worrying about what he says. Watch what he does. When you start detaching well he may verbally protest. Don't fall for that, that's manipulation. Watch what he does. As he starts reaching out to you, coming towards you. Maybe even showing some of those old sparks of his former self.

One last thing. You can go your own way, do what comes naturally to you, and go through the same mistakes we all made. Or you can listen to us, those that have been through it and come out the other end. Some, like me, managed to save our marriages. Some ended up getting divorced. But we all saved ourselves!

[BlueSea]

Misty, He is the only one that can control that timeline. You have to remember that you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him,

Job - I did break him! I know that. During the last years, I always thought it was him. At the start I thought I was the loving one, I was the caring one, I was the one who 'got it' relationship wise - and he sort of thought the same, so when I pointed out things going wrong in our relationship, it was because of him. If you just did this, or did this, it would be better. When that started to not work, we started to go to counselors - who after listening to these situations - would completely side with me. We jumped thru 3 counselors that consistently targeted him based on his reported behaviors, that if you would hear, you might say - that H is a bit of a jerk. We went to 3 counselors because when H could no longer stand a counselor and her conclusions that it was him we jumped to another. Of course, I felt vindicated through it all. I never said it out loud - but it was there - See? its all you H. Your the broke one!

But, I now know after much hard long introspection these past 2 months... these cheesy counselors did not dig deep enough...to see that it was me. Even I did not see that until now.

What I know now... He was silent and non communicative because I made him feel that he could not do anything right. He did not help in the house, because if he did, it wasn't done well enough for me. Honestly, I really thought that I was just being helpful, ie, do it this way b/c it works better if you do it that way. And when he had enough and did it the way he wanted, I interpreted it as negating me and that hurt my feelings, that he did not respect me to even listen to me. So I would rant on and on about how that made me feel insignificant without giving proper acknowledgement that I was just being controlling. The counselors only saw a wife being shut down and ignored by her husband, and even they rode him to be more understanding. I felt justified having all these 'professionals' fully endorse my POV. It was like, "yeah, see? YOUR the broke one, so try harder!". And he did - he tried. And in our circle of push and push back - we both felt we were trying - but it was all in vain - we were just on a carousel of doing the wrong thing over and over. He started to completely shut me out, so I would push harder to elicit some response - any response - but that would make him retreat further. I kept thinking, 'what a jerk!' and cry and feel sorry for myself. And he was on the other side, probably thinking, I can not make her happy, I can't do anything right. And then he broke.

So. I see. I see it all - and I am full of regret. I was not being helpful, I was being controlling! This was my contribution to the demise. I will have to say he has responsibility too. He has a strong narcissistic side to him. So I know he is not perfect - but I can only focus on what I can fix about myself.

In the end, I do believe I broke him.

[BlueSea]

Wow. So much focus on him. You'll never ever make progress with this much focus on him. You have to bear down and forget about him. He's making choices that are selfish and are not in the best interest of those he is supposed to love. If he had acted like this when you first met him you would have told him to kick rocks. But now you're willing to put up with it. Ever stop to ask yourself why? I know you'd say you love him, but romantic love is not unconditional. There are things he could do that would cause you to toss him on his butt. Where is that line? Apparently he hasn't crossed that line yet, right? ....

One last thing. You can go your own way, do what comes naturally to you, and go through the same mistakes we all made. Or you can listen to us, those that have been through it and come out the other end. Some, like me, managed to save our marriages. Some ended up getting divorced. But we all saved ourselves!

Steve - yes, he is crossing that line After a beautiful Mothers Day, where he participated and even wanted to be with us as we went to Kerry Park and then to Alki to walk the beach, he snuck out (again) after he thought I was asleep. And I am devastated. Completely gutted.

And, I am so so afraid. All the threads I read here of when separation occurs sound so utterly full of pain - the very small interactions - hoping for texts and then agonizing whether to answer them. The dissecting of every moment spent and how to approach with DBing. And 'was this interaction handled right'? Reading into everything. So painful, too painful. Yet here I am in pain as well.

I think in my head that if he is here, he will see me and the changes and the effort, and will figure out that this other person is not what he wants. That the old adage 'he will never leave his wife to be with the mistress' is true and at the end of this he will come back. My mom went thru this, and I was about 16. He had an affair and it was awful for her. He didn't leave the house and in the end, he stopped seeing the OW, and it was just my parents again.

Reading the Mothers Day card he gave me, its like nothing has changed, we are a family again. And I am standing with one foot in how it used to be and what is going on now. And I don't know what to do. Is this part of 'in good times and in bad'? I don't know. I feel so alone at 4am, the pain is so intense - it just starts in your gut and radiates out to every extremity. How can someone you trusted, and loved, and would do anything for - do this? How could he be with us and part of our happiness today, and then go and do this? we had a great sex life (before) so (I think) not that...was it because I hurt him so much? is it because of this MLC thing? Does he really find happiness in this OWs arms? or is it just a salve for whatever he is going thru?

I don't have anyone to talk to - so I appreciate all your advice. I know exactly how Kate Spade felt.

[job]

Misty,

You only own your part of the demise of the relationship. If he wasn't happy w/what you were doing and/or saying, he should have spoken up. Many of us that post here are fixers and planners. Once a spouse has left the relationship, we jump into over drive and want to fix things immediately and we can't do that. The problems have to be resolved one at a time. The problems didn't happen over night, it took years in the making.

Now, if he's having a MLC, then the situation is very different because his childhood issues are bubbling up and that is something you are not responsible for. In MLC, that child/adult was stunted at an early age and now needs to go back and relive that part of his life and then continue to grow up. I have noticed that you have mentioned MLC several times...what makes you think he's having one? MLC's main ingredient is depression.

For now, step way back, give him space. No more relationship talks. If you have apologized to him about whatever you think you have done, then leave it be. Make a list of the things that you need to change about yourself and start doing them. You don't have to tell him that you love him or tell him that you are fixing yourself. Actions speak louder than words. Make a list of activities that you have put on the back burner and start working on them.

We are all human and yes, we all make mistakes. It's what we learn from those mistakes that makes us better people. Keep the focus on you, post often and above all else....dig deeper for patience.

[LH19]

M,

I want to start off by saying I’m so sorry for the pain you are going through right now.

It’s actually the complete opposite of what you are thinking. He needs time and space away from you to miss you. In house separation is very difficult especially when there is an affair. You want to get him out of the house as soon as possible. He’s cake eating right now and WS will eat cake until the cows come home.

Know that what you are feeling right now is normal and it is temporary. You will not always feel this way. In fact you will come out better and stronger.

[SteveLW]

Wow. So much focus on him. You'll never ever make progress with this much focus on him. You have to bear down and forget about him. He's making choices that are selfish and are not in the best interest of those he is supposed to love. If he had acted like this when you first met him you would have told him to kick rocks. But now you're willing to put up with it. Ever stop to ask yourself why? I know you'd say you love him, but romantic love is not unconditional. There are things he could do that would cause you to toss him on his butt. Where is that line? Apparently he hasn't crossed that line yet, right? ....

One last thing. You can go your own way, do what comes naturally to you, and go through the same mistakes we all made. Or you can listen to us, those that have been through it and come out the other end. Some, like me, managed to save our marriages. Some ended up getting divorced. But we all saved ourselves!

Steve - yes, he is crossing that line After a beautiful Mothers Day, where he participated and even wanted to be with us as we went to Kerry Park and then to Alki to walk the beach, he snuck out (again) after he thought I was asleep. And I am devastated. Completely gutted.

And, I am so so afraid. All the threads I read here of when separation occurs sound so utterly full of pain - the very small interactions - hoping for texts and then agonizing whether to answer them. The dissecting of every moment spent and how to approach with DBing. And 'was this interaction handled right'? Reading into everything. So painful, too painful. Yet here I am in pain as well.

I think in my head that if he is here, he will see me and the changes and the effort, and will figure out that this other person is not what he wants. That the old adage 'he will never leave his wife to be with the mistress' is true and at the end of this he will come back. My mom went thru this, and I was about 16. He had an affair and it w. He didn't leave the house and in the end, he stopped seeing the OW, and it was just my parents again.as awful for her

Reading the Mothers Day card he gave me, its like nothing has changed, we are a family again. And I am standing with one foot in how it used to be and what is going on now. And I don't know what to do. Is this part of 'in good times and in bad'? I don't know. I feel so alone at 4am, the pain is so intense - it just starts in your gut and radiates out to every extremity. How can someone you trusted, and loved, and would do anything for - do this? How could he be with us and part of our happiness today, and then go and do this? we had a great sex life (before) so (I think) not that...was it because I hurt him so much? is it because of this MLC thing? Does he really find happiness in this OWs arms? or is it just a salve for whatever he is going thru?

I don't have anyone to talk to - so I appreciate all your advice. I know exactly how Kate Spade felt.

Misty, yes unfortunately, pain is part of all of this. All of us here had to go through pain to get through our situations. Whether we ended up Ring or not, there is pain. As one that has been Ring for nearly 2 years now, trust me when I say that Ring is extremely painful. Especially early on. If you read my threads you will see that even in Ring there were struggles. There was second guessing. It was not a cake-walk. So many LBSs think that if they can just get their WAS to stay, to agree to R, and to recommit to the marriage that suddenly things are all normal again and it is as if the situation never happened. I can tell you from experience that is not the way it works. Unfortunately, R or D, there is going to be pain.

Many of us come here looking for that magic bullet to get out of pain. Many people come here and would even be open to just cutting and running IF that would end the pain. There are no shortcuts here. The feelings are real. The emotional roller-coaster is real. Most of the things it feels natural to do in order to end the pain will, in fact, prolong it.

And, I am so so afraid. All the threads I read here of when separation occurs sound so utterly full of pain - the very small interactions - hoping for texts and then agonizing whether to answer them. The dissecting of every moment spent and how to approach with DBing. And 'was this interaction handled right'? Reading into everything. So painful, too painful. Yet here I am in pain as well.

I think in my head that if he is here, he will see me and the changes and the effort, and will figure out that this other person is not what he wants. That the old adage 'he will never leave his wife to be with the mistress' is true and at the end of this he will come back. My mom went thru this, and I was about 16. He had an affair and it w. He didn't leave the house and in the end, he stopped seeing the OW, and it was just my parents again.as awful for her

I think what you are struggling with here is a false sense of control. You think if he stays in the house then you have some control. You do not. You even tell the story that he sneaked out again last night. The more you try to control the more he will rebel and the more you will be frustrated. And that will continue to cause you pain. But what I really think you need to get a handle on is your fear. Fear is, in my opinion, the number one enemy of DBing. I know in my own sitch, whenever I let fear rule my actions, I did the wrong things. When I dropped my fear and stuck to the anti-DBing principles espoused in the book and the fine folks in this forum, I moved forward.

So here is the thing. What I want to go back to above is the idea of having to go through pain. The good news is that no matter what happens, eventually the pain subsides. It is kind of like having to have surgery. The reason the short-term pain is bearable is because you know there will be a day when you are mended, healed up, and no longer in pain. None of us would go through surgery if the prognosis was being in pain forever. So you don't have to be afraid because the truth is that whether he stays or goes, you can look forward to a day when you are no longer in pain.

If you do not believe that, look at those of us that are on the other side of our situations. Whether they are someone that ended up D'd, or someone that ended up R'd. They all came through bigger and better.

One of the things that we espouse here is to look at your situation as an opportunity. You've identified ways you can improve, I see that reading through your responses. That's great! That is what you should be doing. Taking a step back, take a hard look at yourself, and become a better person. Prepare yourself for your next MR whether or not it is with him or someone else. And that is really what you need to focus on, making you the best you that you can be. If he takes note of that and changes his ways, great! If not, then you are set up for success going into a R with someone new.

But the best part about starting to focus on yourself is that your focus naturally comes off of him. And when you start focusing on yourself the pain will start to subside. It is a slow subside, but when you get good at GAL, 180ing (self-improvement) and detachment, you will slowly start to move from a place of pain to place of feeling good about yourself and feeling enabled.

[AnotherStander]

I hear you...If I say this "I was too busy. From now on you are going to have to make your own food"... he will not appreciate that and will consider that very confrontational. If what I say does not please him, or irritates him in the least, he makes a point to get in my face and remind me that he is on razor edge of walking out that door. He knows that terrifies me. I don't know what to do to get over that. I am afraid to not make him dinner. Clearly, I have work to do on myself.

These situations rarely resolve while living under the same roof. So please accept that separation is likely, and even necessary before things may start to improve. I am not saying to kick him out, but I am saying the sooner you accept that S will probably happen then the sooner you can work on your fear of that. You need to get to the point where if this happens: "he makes a point to get in my face and remind me that he is on razor edge of walking out that door" then your response is "I would rather you stay and work on the M, but I understand that leaving is what you want and if that's the case, then you should leave." You do not say this in an angry tone, but rather, a loving but firm tone. If it's what he wants then don't try to force him to stay. WAS's feel trapped by their LBS. You have to "open the cage door". It's still his choice whether to leave the cage or not, you do not make that choice for him. You just open the door so that he knows he can choose for himself.

He is VERY ANGRY right now. It comes out of every pore in his face. scary angry.

Do you have any concerns that he may become physically abusive? Because if so, then you need to take action ASAP. This is a red flag that he may be unstable.

I don't know if its due to all the testosterone shots he is taking - or is this is an MLC thing?

Is he taking test as therapy through a doctor, or illegally? TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) is a pretty low dosage. But if he's taking it illegally for bodybuilding or whatever, and he doesn't know what he's doing, then he could be going through "roid rage" which is uncontrollable anger and even violence.

He very much enjoys hurting me. He will say cruel things and will openly smile when I breakdown and cry. When I see his possessed face, I get afraid, because I know what is coming, if its on, he will not relent. He is only satisfied once I am shaking / weeping and apologizing and telling him I will do better in the future. [b]Is this normal for a WAS/MLC???

Woah. How long has this been going on? Just since BD? Because please understand- you are being abused. This is a blatant example of emotional abuse.

I am ecstatic that he is doing counseling, but confused b/c he doesn't even enjoy talking to me. Can you offer some advice on this - its very confusing for me.

He's more than likely doing it to check off his list of "things I tried to save the marriage but that only proved it really was over". Michele's counselors are great though, so listen to him/ her and implement whatever advice they offer. I doubt it'll result in any change in your H short-term so don't have any expectations. But do keep going.

[BlueSea]

Job -

"I have noticed that you have mentioned MLC several times...what makes you think he's having one? MLC's main ingredient is depression."

I was told by my counselor that H was WAS and MLC based on what I told him - he has also had a session with H and has not changed that but focuses more on the MLC part.

LH19 -

You want to get him out of the house as soon as possible. He’s cake eating right now and WS will eat cake until the cows come home.

I can not do this, I can not push him out - just reading that I go into full blown anxiety attack. This is just too much for me, honestly, I have no idea how folks get thru this.

Steve -
Thank you. Your words are spot on - I am deep in fear. I agree. I am just getting into an Olympic sized pool of pain and i know I have to swim it - but right now I just don't want to. I have no words any more, I just want to fold up and give up. I am sorry for the 'poor me' routine. I am going to let myself have today to cry and shake off the last remnants of denial that this is even happening. Know that I am reading the thread, I am listening. I am letting it lay on my brain, it will sink in.

AnotherStander - He wont hurt me. And if he did, at least it would be over.




H is taking his counseling call with the DB counselor as I type.
Please let this day end better than it started.

[job]

Misty,

If you think it's more likely MLC, I suggest that you take some time and visit the MLC forum. The MLC forum has a lot of valuable information that may prove useful to you as you walk this path.

Try to remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint and once again, you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. He has to do the heavy lifting in fixing himself.