A typical Cliche

[Illidin]

Feeling very lonely. Yesterday went okay overall I guess. Tried to talk to some people. Writing on here responding took awhile so that was a nice distraction. Hardly ate but managed one meal at least. By the end of the day I was actually kinda calm. Even enjoyed a little bit of TV. Sleeping proved to be a little more difficult than I thought though.

Today has been completely opposite though. Woke up in a panic attack. My nightmares have been all over the place recently. I don't remember anything today but maybe something bad in my sleep, maybe just a renewed sense of longing waking up alone I'm not sure. That panic has been ruling my day no joy and my mind is spiraling again. Yesterday my wife text me a little about the how family was doing. maybe that's what calmed yesterday. Today I just wanted to be cordial and said good morning. She never even read it for hours. In the panic I sent more a couple other random small talk texts. Eventually she said very curtly that she was spending time with family and I knew I was being bad. Finally got focused for a moment started some laundry, did dishes, washed the cat boxes, vaccumed, took a shower. Still am on edge. But trying to find focus.

[KitCat]

Hugs!!!! I can't offer much else... I get the nightmares. Had one the other day my hair was falling out in large clumps... WHOA.

Its hard. But, it will get easier. Put the phone down... don't feel terrible about it. We all do it. But, for now put it down.

[Illidin]

Thanks kitcat I appreciate the support.
Doing a little better today. Will see where the day takes me.
Work says we are transitioning back to regular schedule over the next couple weeks. It's been really rough any time I was called in recently. So not looking forward to it but hopefully it will end up being a silver lining.

[SteveLW]

I had a ton of nightmares during my sitch. Most of them involved my W sleeping with other guys, unapologetically. Just right in my face, flaunting it. I'd wake up in a panic.

I do have to say that one nice thing is waking up and realizing that it was all just a bad dream.

[Illidin]

It's funny part of me wishes me dreams were like that. Maybe I'd start to hate for the affairs and stop caring but probably not. My dreams are always self damaging. Even before the BD I noticed I have more if them. Watching my wife die in various ways unable to save her because I was weak, slow, etc. Tonight it was simply I was Disneyland and was trying to get to her. I had ended up one place and she was with her family somewhere else. I moved like a snail and it work if was so exhausting to move at the pace. I could never make it to her. Anytime I got to where she last told me to come she was gone. I guess I feel like like I'll never be able to catch my wife again right now.

[sandi2]

I wasn't going to say anything about it, but it really bothers me about that website claiming Christian therapy........and that you had been set up with an IC with/through that religious organization. You said you weren't religious, but that you didn't mind. Well, I took a look at the site. It is about religion, alright, but it's Islam, not Christian.

I appreciate you taking the time to write more about your MR. I am seldom at a loss for words, but when you describe yourself, it leaves me pretty close to it. (As you'll see, I overcame it.) Actually, I am filled with many, many questions. I don't expect you to answer them, if you'd rather not, but there seems so many holes in your story, that it's hard to understand. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just don't understand how you apparently know what you did wrong in your MR........but did you know it at that time, or did it simply dawn on you when your W started acting like Girls Gone Wild? It's one thing for a man to not know how to treat his W, and it's quite another thing for him to know-- but chooses not to treat her well. You have said things that made me wonder if you were never educated in what women need emotionally, and to feel loved by her H. You talked about your control issues, but all those behaviors didn't come from a need to control. Some of your actions said you simply didn't care enough to put forth an ounce of energy to make your W feel cherished, to feel beautiful, or to show you were proud of her. Look, most men need a little education when it comes to understanding women's needs. People aren't born knowing this stuff.

What does a little boy experience in his life that leads to complete negativity about everything around him? What happened in your childhood to cause so much insecurity, and form this man who says he doesn't know how to act or respond to things that most of people would consider a natural human response? Nobody can tell you why you didn't have any friends? What made you different, Illidin?

Quote
The only thing I've seen successfully work in WW cases, is when the H applies tough love.

Ive seen you say this a lot to people but I will admit Im never sure what you mean by it.

Ever thought about looking it up? I didn't invent the term.

When I read you stitch you made of a point of saying your husband gave you all the space you needed. and it took a long time for you to stop what you were doing, You considered leaving but ultimately you feared your financial security. At the end of day you stayed in the same home as your husband and children. Maybe I misunderstood it or misread though.

Oh goodness! You summed it up pretty well, with only a few words. My story is way too long to read. Frankly, I don't think reading my old story could be very helpful. I'd much rather you read what I learned........and what I've continued to learn the past 13 yrs. When I arrived on the board, I was wayward and conducting myself in shameful ways. I was trying to make up my mind to stay or leave. (Let me inject this: I may be wrong, but the way you said that part in the quote, I felt like you were trying to throw that up to me about my H. As if to say, your H didn't get tough, and it took a long time, and you stayed with him.) It's important that you understand that it wasn't my H who was here getting the tools to save the M. You can't look at him as an example of what you need to do. Yes, he eventually backed off and gave me space (which means he stopped applying emotional pressure)........and yes, I stayed with him, but it wasn't b/c he had the sure fire secret to winning back a WW! Over the years, I've had several LBH's ask what my H did to get me to change my mind and stay in the M. They wanted to read my sitch to see how he won me back. Truth is, he was just about as clueless as most other LBH's. He was a kind, good man.....but clueless. But, listen to what I'm saying........he wasn't the one here. I was.

I'm not sure what you mean by it taking a long time to stop what I was doing. I mean, I don't know how much time period you are referring to, but I'll say that any time spent living like that, is too much. I really can't remember right now how long I was messaging other guys, and being a very naughty girl. Less than six months, I'd guess, but not sure. ( I was pretty fogged out of my mind.) I was in an A about nine months. I don't know if that's what you meant. Actually, it was what I had to go through, after the A, that took a long time........the withdrawals, healing, forgiving, etc.

The board occasionally has a wayward spouse to join, but not often. So, I had quite a few people who were interested in hearing from the other side of the street, so to speak. They thought maybe I could enlighten them about their own W. It wasn't just one-sided, b/c I have learned a lot from the LBH's, that I never learned from my own H. They would share thoughts they had about why their W felt & did what she did. Most of the time, they were way off base and didn't know much about the mindset of a WW, but we learned from each other. I really dug in and started reading everything I could find on WW's. Anyway, I wanted to tell you that the spouse who shows up here, is the one who gets the information on what they need to do about saving their MR. You can't teach someone who isn't here. See what I mean? It didn't have anything to do with what my H did. It had to do with me. I had to fix myself before I could fix my MR........and that took a considerable amount of time. We don't ever reach the point that we can stop working on our MR, if we want a good one. Now, before you ask about getting your WW to come join the board or read the book......no! Just.....don't.

So..........aren't you glad I was lost for words?

[Illidin]

I wasn't going to say anything about it, but it really bothers me about that website claiming Christian therapy........and that you had been set up with an IC with/through that religious organization. You said you weren't religious, but that you didn't mind. Well, I took a look at the site. It is about religion, alright, but it's Islam, not Christian.

I dont know much about this. Maybe I'll try to take another look. It was just start of the registration process. Beyond that I've had nothing to do with that site I just meet with therapist via his office. So far hes been fine, he mentioned some religion at the start and when I shot him down it hasn't come up again. Still don't know how the process works I'd say but I'm hoping we can start working on strategies to work on my problems soon. If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate. Are you giving like homework, coping mechanisms, things to actually apply to life to help you change habits or is it just all self realization?

I appreciate you taking the time to write more about your MR. I am seldom at a loss for words, but when you describe yourself, it leaves me pretty close to it. (As you'll see, I overcame it.) Actually, I am filled with many, many questions.

Ask as many questions as you like and I will try to answer them if you think it will help, even its just to help me perosnally.

I don't expect you to answer them, if you'd rather not, but there seems so many holes in your story, that it's hard to understand. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just don't understand how you apparently know what you did wrong in your MR........but did you know it at that time, or did it simply dawn on you when your W started acting like Girls Gone Wild? It's one thing for a man to not know how to treat his W, and it's quite another thing for him to know-- but chooses not to treat her well. You have said things that made me wonder if you were never educated in what women need emotionally, and to feel loved by her H. You talked about your control issues, but all those behaviors didn't come from a need to control. Some of your actions said you simply didn't care enough to put forth an ounce of energy to make your W feel cherished, to feel beautiful, or to show you were proud of her. Look, most men need a little education when it comes to understanding women's needs. People aren't born knowing this stuff.

I'm not sure what holes in particular your talking about but I have tried to be as honest as possible at least from my perspective. Obviously at lot of this is in retrospect so I may remember every exact detail.

Do I feel like simply ignored my wife's wishes? No I don't think I ever did that. Sometimes I would work on changing things and then when things didn't change cause changes in her they would revert perhaps. Were there lots of little things that was brought up in passing that I forgot or didn't try hard enough to change, probably. Was it ever malicious? No I never wanted her to hurt. If I failed at one aspect because of insecurities that doesn't mean I didn't try other ways. Like I said I didn't take the time to walk into her job to give her things, every now and again I did but mostly I didn't. I did always hold her hand out in public, I talked about her with everyone I ever met, (Something I know for a fact she didn't do about me. Sometimes I met people she worked with for months who didn't know about me. Probably should have been a red flag.) I was always affectionate with her, I always was trying to talk to her, to do things she wanted, to take her out. I bought gifts, I went out of my way to get things she wanted even in the middle of night and during storms. I filled her car with gas every week before she could even think about it. I encouraged her in every thing she tried to do but admittedly I went about it the wrong way a lot of times. I know what she is capable of and I pressured her to do live up to that. When I should of just trusted her.

Were there somethings that she disliked that I felt was core part of my being that until very recently I didn't really work on? Things like the fact that I have very limited tonal range. It rarely changes but that doesn't mean I'm not happy or excited. My wife constantly said she couldn't feel those things from me most of the time. And me telling her was never good enough. I still dont really know how to work on that, people who like or tolerate me say I'm very stoic and it took a long to learn how to not feel like I was mad or unhappy even when I was having happy conversations. My new boss at our 3 month eval said he thought he was concerned he made a huge mistake hiring me that it took over a month a half for me to warm up at all and even then it took longer for the team to get use to how I acted. He seriously considered letting me go because they weren't sure what to make of me. Thats all in the past now and we get along fine. Thats more of a extreme example but things like my fear and negativity I also felt for a long time was just the way I was and I couldn't really change it. It was selfish but it use to really depress me that she couldn't understand me enough to love me and not a version of me. Now I realize that isn't true and its something I can change my habits on.
You asked if anyone ever taught me about how to treat a women how to cherish them? I dont fully understand this, do you mean did someone actually sit down and talk to me? No, is that something people do with their sons? I thought people just learned those things over time through trial and error. I didn't date many people before my wife. About 3 and I left 2 of them because I didn't feel we were close enough to live a life together. 1 left me and whoo boy that is a story.

What does a little boy experience in his life that leads to complete negativity about everything around him? What happened in your childhood to cause so much insecurity, and form this man who says he doesn't know how to act or respond to things that most of people would consider a natural human response? Nobody can tell you why you didn't have any friends? What made you different, Illidin?

I dont really know, I definitely had a childhood that I wouldn't want others to have. I could explain it but I don't know if this is the place for that. There are mental health issues that run through my family especially bipolar disorders. But so far I don't believe I have a psychosis yet. "man who says he doesn't know how to act or respond to things that most of people would consider a natural human response?" This really resonates with me. I have heard my wife say I dont think like normal people a million times. I dont know why that is. I never entirely even understood it. I view the world very logically and from and I guess my viewpoint is wrong. I realize that now even more than before as people here kinda treat me like a unique case, at least I feel that way. Unfortunately I did always view it as a positive, I took pride in the fact that social norms didn't control me. That ive never really felt a lot pressure to do things I don't want to do because other people feelings towards me don't really affect me that strongly. Likely old comping mechanisms. Recently though I just want to feel normal. Now more than ever as it has cost something I can't really replace. I mean even if I changed and found a new life and a new family, even if I was happier in that regard then now. I still lost someone so very important to me. I think that will haunt me forever.

Oh goodness! You summed it up pretty well, with only a few words. My story is way too long to read. Frankly, I don't think reading my old story could be very helpful. I'd much rather you read what I learned........and what I've continued to learn the past 13 yrs. When I arrived on the board, I was wayward and conducting myself in shameful ways. I was trying to make up my mind to stay or leave. (Let me inject this: I may be wrong, but the way you said that part in the quote, I felt like you were trying to throw that up to me about my H. As if to say, your H didn't get tough, and it took a long time, and you stayed with him.) It's important that you understand that it wasn't my H who was here getting the tools to save the M. You can't look at him as an example of what you need to do. Yes, he eventually backed off and gave me space (which means he stopped applying emotional pressure)........and yes, I stayed with him, but it wasn't b/c he had the sure fire secret to winning back a WW! Over the years, I've had several LBH's ask what my H did to get me to change my mind and stay in the M. They wanted to read my sitch to see how he won me back. Truth is, he was just about as clueless as most other LBH's. He was a kind, good man.....but clueless. But, listen to what I'm saying........he wasn't the one here. I was.

I meant no disrespect, I'm not sure if you felt I kinda understood or your being sarcastic in the first line. But I think maybe I understand better now. Your husband basically got lucky. That you found your own path back and the tough love you got essential came from this forum. I get that your years here have really pointed to tough love being what helps people cheating hit bottom and yes I can look it up. But I am here for support and help, you have no obligation to answer, but you have some understanding my life right now. I would love to hear what you would do in regards to tough love. Im not asking to be told what to do just what you think might have worked best for you in my situation. I will take anything you say as advice not instruction.

[SteveLW]

Illidin, a lot of the tough love stuff for a WW is common sense.

For instance, moving her out of the MBR (which I only advocate in the case of a physical affair). Or asking her to leave the house (most places you can only ask, you cannot make due to laws).

Certainly being a little firmer with detachment. Not tolerating disrespect, "I refuse to engage with you if you treat me like this" then walking away or hanging up, or ignoring her texts.

Certainly, leaving your house, giving her the MBR, begging, pleading, etc. are not tough love actions.

So, in waiting for sandi's follow-up, why don't you tell us what you think tough love would look like for a LBH with a WW?

[Traveler]

If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate.

Hi Illidin,

Many therapists are trained in a few therapeutic approaches, just as massage therapists may be trained in Swedish or Deep Tissue. It's partly about your needs. I alternated between two modes with my therapist--

(1) Emotional Resilience - When I felt overwhelmed, I'd share my thoughts and feelings. She'd listen and help me see patterns triggering me or making me happy, raise options I hadn't considered, help me see the negatives and positives, slow down my decision-making. She'd never answer, "What choice should I make?"

(2) Life Progress - When I wasn't overwhelmed I'd work towards tangible progress in several areas of my life. In this role she was more assertive, checking in on areas I didn't mention, proposing solutions.

Approach #1 was more appropriate when my brain spun through thoughts and I couldn't take key actions the logical side of my brain identified as best. We focused on Approach #2 more as that dropped away.

[Illidin]

The things that make obvious sense to me moving her out of the bedroom (which I haven't decided on yet. If it comes up again I won't stop as before.) Asking her to leave. I've already stated that I think this is not beneficial to me short or long term. Cutting her off finaincly. This actual isn't an option as there isn't a situation where I support her any more then she supports me. The bills are split and the extra I bring in goes to emergency accounts and vacation funds. I reviewed the budget where she would pay for her share and me mine and she would have even more money to herself as I wouldn't expect her to pay half of my car payment anymore. You have to understand that our budget has been based on a combined income not singular incomes our entire lives. We didn't live or work independently ever. I have already been working on accepting this and moving past some of my grief which I believe has to be the first step to detachment. I rarely even in our marriage tolerated complete disrespect as you mentioned but it hasn't been any issue at this time anyway. She is a complete joy to be around all the time unless I pursue and push her buttons. Then she simply withdraws from any conversation no mean words or anger. I could work on ignoring her text some assuming she ever sends me one that isn't just a typical courtesy text of I'm not coming back for dinner or I've arrived at my destination safely. I'm really not sure what else tough love could be I don't really believe it's disrespect so I can't just be mean or go around informing everyone about the affair so she can feel slut shamed or something. It already been made pretty clear I should keep the entire sitch as quiet as possible if I want to hope for reconcile.