WW post D (Thanks BenB part 3)

[sandi2]

Anyway this convo followed:
W - Thank you! How are you? (She was close to crying)
Me - Mostly good but it's up and down. Kills me that kids are feeling it.
Silence.
Me - Do you have something you want to say?. Let her take the lead. She'll either continue talking, or she'll leave.
W - No. Or we'll. A lot...
Me - I have a few minutes. Don't be so eager to show you are available. Just sit there calmly & silently, giving her plenty of rope to lead the conversation.
W - I guess life isnt as black and white as I thought.
Me - No life is mostly in the grey area. (Smiling. She laughed a bit.)
Silence.
Me - Either you get out of the car or we go sit down somewhere. If a few minutes has passed and she hasn't attempted to say anymore, then you should say something like, "Okay, well, I need to be going". Otherwise, it sounds a bit pushy to get her to talk.
Silence
W - What are you thinking about? WARNING! She doesn't want to reveal anything about herself. She wants, first, to feel out your thoughts/feelings. Don't reveal anything.
Me - I can listen but will have a hard time talking when you have that bag next to you. (her "luggage" for living at OM's place)
W - Mmm..
Slience
W - I guess I will go.
Me - Ok.

Mumin, when your W gets serious, she will approach you about reconciliation. You won't have to fish around trying to get her to talk. I can tell by the above quote that you still want to make it too easy for her, and that's not a good thing. You need to say very, very little if/when these type of talks spring up. You cannot tell her your thoughts, when she is sitting there closed mouthed. For goodness sake, be a little mysterious. If she's ready do to the right thing, she'll speak up and tell you. Otherwise, she's just checking to see if you are still sitting on the back burner. If she says she's having second thoughts, or asks what you think about reconciling, then you can tell her you'll have to think about it.....(especially, if you've heard no apology or she shows no remorse and humility). You could follow by saying, "It's not that simple anymore", and tell her she would have to agree to to some terms before you would consider it. If she does appear to be genuinely remorseful, humble, and has apologized for the destruction she brought.......and if she asks what would she have to do to make it work, that's when you tell her the terms of reconciliation. NC with OM....ever! Transparency, MC, etc. There can be no going soft-melty-cheese-man. And remember, the cheater doesn't get to call the terms of reconciliation. Understand?

When she said something about life isn't as black & white as she thought, it hinted that maybe everything isn't so peachy, and maybe......just maybe, her eyes are slightly seeing a little reality from her choices. Maybe she can see the pain in her children. Whether or not she accepts responsibility for their pain, may be in the distant future.

When my fantasy crashed, it felt as if it hit all at once. However, little cracks had been forming. I can look back and see how there was a build up, where I started seeing little things through tiny slit eyes ......but I didn't want to believe it, b/c I wanted the fantasy. One by one, dominoes started falling, until the main event hit and my eyes were opened and the fantasy fog was gone. I want LBH's to note...... Nothing had been resolved at that point. I still had choices to make. I had to face the fallout I had caused. I had to end my A and go through the withdraws. I had to make amends with my H. I had to go through a lot of work on myself, and on my MR.

I believe timing is crucial, b/c she has to be able to start seeing reality and realize how stupid she's been. It's a process she has to go through, if she's going to find her real self. Your job at this point, is hold the line and stop trying to be so helpful in lifting the fog for her. I really don't think it works when the H is trying to usher her out of the fog, and I see how it could backfire on him.......b/c of her unresolved resentment.

In the meantime, I wouldn't make any further references about the OM or A..........like the way you pointed out the bag sitting between you. Don't ask her personal questions, and don't answer personal questions from her. There is more required from her before you give her the answers she wants to hear. You have to let her work to get you back again. It's something she needs to do. So many eager H's rob their WW of that process, instead of making her work. Are you following what I'm saying? If not, please ask me questions.

[Mumin]

Thank you Ovr, LH and Sandi.
All GOOD Advice!

I will definitely avoid these types of talks unless she expressively says she wants or is ready to.
I have strong doubts she is anywhere near a Rec or is having regrets. Probably some second thoughts though.
I have been feeling a lot more detached lately but it is true I must continue to ACTIVELY work on it, thanks for reminder Ovr!
Also thanks for the tips on not sharing details on what I have done while away.

Oh Sandi! You are a saint for writing all this. I can tell you how much this post means to me!
Both great timing and really clearing some things up for me how to act and how she may be feeling!
THAAANK YOU!

Especially this "Don't be so eager to show you are available. Just sit there calmly & silently, giving her plenty of rope to lead the conversation."
I am way better at allowing silence but in a way silence feels weak. At least in the midst of things.

I have read A LOT of your advice to others so hence already have my list of terms if (that's a HUGE if) she ever comes around. She will have to go NC with OM which means quit her job. For one!
She would have to really get to work on her self. For a long time.

When it comes to staying mysterious and not answering questions. What do you think are some good alternative answers??
Apart from lying. Usually I am bad at lying if I haven't prepared.

Update:
This week got a bit strange. At least practically.

On Wednesday W was supposed to pick up the kids have them for two days (at home).
In the morning W wrote and said she was feeling slow, had coughed and probably had fever.
Eventually I suggested that she should come home because I had made plans for the weekend to celebrate D2's birthday. She agreed it was the best.
So I have been alone with the kids all week and haven't seen W since Monday morning.
Also, I said if she has been feeling well for a few days she is still welcome on Sunday to celebrate.
We had a bit more contact than usual to settle all this and I also asked her the day after how she was feeling.

[sandi2]

Thanks for all the sweet things you said. I appreciate it, and it encourages me.

When it comes to staying mysterious and not answering questions. What do you think are some good alternative answer??

I got a little tickled when I read this. The point I was trying to make in my previous post, is that you can be a little mysterious just by not being so free or eager to express your thoughts to her, and by not implying you have time if she wants to talk.

If she says something, don't be quick to jump in there to direct her. Just be cool, relaxed, and let her wait to see if you are going to guide the conversation, as you usually do. To me, it seemed pretty obvious what you were trying to get her to talk about. It was like watching a scene, and you were the director.

I think I said something previously how some WW's will try to fish out how the H feels, first. If the H can give an answer without getting too wordy.....or linking it with their situation, then the better chances of her saying more. For example, looking back on the conversation with her in the car.

W - Thank you! How are you? (She was close to crying)
Me - Mostly good but it's up and down. Kills me that kids are feeling it.
Silence.
Me - Do you have something you want to say?[/i

It would have been better if your response had been limited to "Mostly good". By continuing, your implications jumped right to the sitch, and the part about the kids......sounded as if you were trying to lay guilt as her feet.

After you said it kills you about the kids, silence fell. Then you proceeded to prompt her. Next time, don't ask leading questions. Be comfortable with the silence, or at least, try to play the part of being comfortable.

[i]Me - Do you have something you want to say?
W - No. Or we'll. A lot...
Me - I have a few minutes.

LOL, did you cut her off to tell her you had a few minutes? (You're beginning to remind me of myself.)

W - I guess life isnt as black and white as I thought.
Me - No life is mostly in the grey area. (Smiling. She laughed a bit.)
Silence.
Me - Either you get out of the car or we go sit down somewhere.

Well, no pressure there!

Is she normally very quiet, and you normally take over the conversation? This sounds like a version of the conversations in my own house........only it's my H who is the quiet one, and I have to put duct tape across my mouth to keep me from jumping in too quickly with too many words.

Silence
W - What are you thinking about?
Me - I can listen but will have a hard time talking when you have that bag next to you. (her "luggage" for living at OM's place)
W - Mmm..
Slience
W - I guess I will go.
Me - Ok.

When she asked what were you thinking about, I think you could have just looked through the window, as if you were thinking about something way off.......but don't say anything. Let there be silence. Don't look angry or upset.

You definitely weren't cool with your response. Instead of trying to pressure her, it would have been much better to have appeared calm, cool, & collected. After a couple of minutes of silence and she doesn't say anything.......I would have said something like, "I need to be going"......or however you would usually indicate leaving.

Now, these are not examples of cool answers..... like Fonzie's cool dialect (if you know the Fonz.) My point in this particular dialog is that you keep a "cool" presence, but not a cold shoulder type of coldness. Do you know the difference, or understand what I mean? It's a balance of keeping your eagerness under wraps, and appearing calm and maybe a tad distant.......(b/c the woman is living with her lover 50% of the time, and living at home the rest of the time.) If she wants to know what you are thinking or how you are feeling.......she's going to have to WORK to find out. Don't try to assist her along in the dialog. Don't press her. Don't ask her leading questions. Sit there with your sunglasses on and looking like your favorite celebrity. (jk)

Apart from lying. Usually I am bad at lying if I haven't prepared.

Oh no, don't lie to her. I can talk about other ways to be mysterious, in another post. Getting a personal life that doesn't include your WW is the best way to be mysterious. That is, if you put duct tape over your mouth and not blab all the details to her. Details for a woman is answering all the "W" questions...... who, what, where, & when. She especially wants to know the "who". More about that in a later post.

**************************************************************************

Update:
This week got a bit strange. At least practically.

On Wednesday W was supposed to pick up the kids have them for two days (at home).
In the morning W wrote and said she was feeling slow, had coughed and probably had fever.
Eventually I suggested that she should come home because I had made plans for the weekend to celebrate D2's birthday. She agreed it was the best.
So I have been alone with the kids all week and haven't seen W since Monday morning.
Also, I said if she has been feeling well for a few days she is still welcome on Sunday to celebrate.
We had a bit more contact than usual to settle all this and I also asked her the day after how she was feeling.

Okay, I guess you need to spell it out for me. Why does this appear more strange than anything else in your marital sitch?

[Mumin]

Once again, your advice is priceless! Thank you so much for taking your time!
If you have any invincible duct tap that would be fkn Awesome!
I have always had to drag her through any type of serious talk.

she's going to have to WORK to find out. Don't try to assist her along in the dialog. Don't press her. Don't ask her leading questions. Sit there with your sunglasses on and looking like your favorite celebrity.

This! As well as not using too much words! Thanks!

My point in this particular dialog is that you keep a "cool" presence, but not a cold shoulder type of coldness. Do you know the difference, or understand what I mean?

Thanks! Yes I get it. For me this is important because when I DO mentally detach it often makes me a bit cold. Finding the balance now and for future endeavors is important.

She especially wants to know the "who".

Yes this was really obvious last weekend.

Okay, I guess you need to spell it out for me. Why does this appear more strange than anything else in your marital sitch?

Haha thanks for the pointer.
What I did feel this weekend though was a bit sadness for my D2 that mom wasn't around on her birthday party.
I actually asked W again on Saturday but she said she was still feeling sick. But might as well have been she wanted to avoid the social gathering and its risk of questions and shame.
D2 seemed to have a blast though! Tomorrow she turns 2 for real! So much love!


OH, and I have heard of the Fonz but dont know him. Will have to look it up!

[Mumin]

First, THANK YOU to every single person on this board! This community is amazing!

Second short journaling
Slept at my brothers place last night, needed some space and to get a good night sleep (D3 wakes up 3-4 times per night and that often wakes D5 up as well).
Just finishing the work day and will eat dinner with my brother and then go home.
W just messaged, "What will you do today?" (wants to know if I am sleeping at home tonight).
Just read the notification and wont open the message (its Messenger so if I open it she can see if I have read it or not)
Annoying that she just keeps asking this.
I will answer her in a couple of hours.

Also had a good discussion a with bank around mortgage the other day!

[ovrrnbw]

Mumin,

can you bring us up to speed on the sleepovers at your brother's house? It's because he lives in town and when you go that way it's pretty far to get home?

Something feels off on this. You're trying to escape her and the kids?

[Mumin]

On phone.
Yeah when I am in town (where office is) it is pretty far home.
The days that I don't have kids I make sure to work a bit longer hours and workout at gym, so often it gets late.
Last direct bus (~45 min) leaves at 20:00.

However yesterday I felt I wanted some time alone and needed a good nights sleep.
I have to handle the kids at night since W always sleeps in the cabin.
But there is also some avoidance in there...

[sandi2]

Once again, your advice is priceless! Thank you so much for taking your time!
If you have any invincible duct tap that would be fkn Awesome!

I have to purchase duct tape on an industrial scale.

I have always had to drag her through any type of serious talk.

I know what you mean. I think it becomes a problem when we are asking them questions, trying to get them to talk.....and it's easy to prompt, b/c it's so frustrating for us. In the past, if I was talking to my H, or most anyone, if I asked a question to get them to talk, if they didn't say something pretty quickly, I would be firing more at them. But.....are we doing them or ourselves a favor? I wonder if your W doesn't try very much, b/c she knows you are going to speak for her?

What I did feel this weekend though was a bit sadness for my D2 that mom wasn't around on her birthday party.

She may not have felt as sad as her daddy felt for her.

I actually asked W again on Saturday but she said she was still feeling sick. But might as well have been she wanted to avoid the social gathering and its risk of questions and shame.

I'm by invitations like I am giving an apology. Invite one time. Apologize one time. It's up the other person to accept.

[Mumin]

Journaling

Went out on friday (yes, slept at brothers place). Felt nice to look at other women in bars with a different "mindset".
Today I did a crossfit workout called Murph. Just under 40 minutes which is pretty good.
Told wife this morning I was going to do it and she seemed impressed.
In general it feels like she is trying to "catch up" with me and make sure we are in a good place.
Doing more house work, mowed our lawn, made me a sandwich this morning etc
Perhaps she is having some regret. But probably not.
To me it just feels like shes getting away with everything she has done..

Also, negotiated with my boss to remove my bonus and instead have a bit higher salary.
This will allow me to buy her out of the house. Will bring this up tonight.
Not sure if W still feels she needs to "get out..".

[LH19]

M,

What do you mean she's getting away with everything she's done? Do you feel like she should be punished? If so, in what way? She's sctually experiencing everything your going through she just looks at it a different way.