My WAS - looking help and thanks in advance PART 7

[Ginger1]

OB, I’m sorry you are going through this this. I have to say your updates look exactly the same every time you do update. She expects everything of you and she wants to give you nothing and you are resentful

I know you say you took these vows and want to honor them, but I don’t know that she is. It’s very one sided for her.

And let me warn you of this..... everything you experience with her now will blow up 1000x when you have kids. And do you want to bring kids into this? A baby will absolutely not fix your situation and quite honestly will
Make it worse .

[curtis7]

My BIL and SIL have been staying with us, 1 week at the end of March, and now again since last Monday. They live in Chicago and decided it would be better here...I am tired of them being here but things aren't real bad or anything and it is a little change of pace so there's some good to it as well.

Ovr, sorry to hear your W is not being an equal partner right now. If I had relatives staying with me that long I think my stress level would be through the roof. Perhaps your W is taking out some frustration of having the house guests around on you.

You have been on the right track for some time now and occasionally intent and commitment to making it work is called into question on both your parts. Keep up the good work taking care of yourself and showing her your love. She will continue to feel that over time and hopefully reciprocate.

I walked out of the room after a while to go workout in the basement, as our conversation was going nowhere.

I miss the gym. I've been going 3-5 times per week for over 20 years now.

Good to hear you’re still able to get some exercise. I setup a bench and adjustable weight dumbbell set in the garage a month ago when the gym closed. Options are quite limited, but it’s better than nothing. My brother is a state champion heavyweight bodybuilder and he was freaking out when the virus closed his gym. Fortunately he’s in good with the owner and they open it for him so he and a few others can continue training privately.

[IronWill]

Hey ovr -

Sorry to hear that things aren't going so great with the R right now. I think it's easy to forget that we're all dealing with an unprecedented situation worldwide. So that's probably not helping matters, either.

It sounds like you have some built up resentment from what happened before. Probably something you may want to think about processing with someone other than W - I forget if you mentioned if you are in IC or not. Letting those resentments build up is not going to be very good for the future of your R - these little daily chips and dings can blow up over the tiniest things sometimes.

Glad to hear your business is going good - you are fortunate there. I wish I could get back to work here, hopefully this mess will calm down soon and I can leave the house to look for work again.

Hang in there - stay strong

[neffer]

Hey ovr...nothing has changed much, right?

Help yourself first. Do help yourself. Get some IC advice.

It all falls into the time-space reality haze. Add that time we are actually living are mostly chaotic.
Don´t rush into onesided decisions BUT keep self awareness function on.

Be patient. Be honest with yourself: ask yourself what kind of R you want.

[Traveler]

Hi OverTheRainbow,

While you haven't updated your own thread, I'm impressed how often you contribute to others situations. I'll try to contribute what you requested--new perspectives and ideas.

W was baby crazy back in January and February. I told her I would need at least another year before I'd be ready.

I applaud you not adding more stress to a vulnerable relationship. With kids, you truly learn how little sleep or work you can get away with! It doesn't help your love life. Imagine a year passes and your relationship is still not satisfying--maybe a D+. What's your expectation? What's her expectation?

I wonder if you could tie her desire for the future to your desire for the future. I bet you'd feel much better about kids if you felt loved, secure, and that you each felt the relationship was balanced.

I'm not allowed to get mad,

Well, yes, stop getting angry! I recall Yoda said something about resentment leading to anger leading to you getting a red light saber and fighting for the Sith. Maybe you could break the chain earlier?

I've forgotten something. I have plenty of stuff going on in my life, I know I forget things. But I am at this strange point where every time she forgets something, I want to rub her face in it. she has an explanation and everything

Hmm. An explanation, both you have? What if you nipped this "forgetting" in the bud? I solved losing my keys with a device called a "Tile" so my Phone always knows where it is (IIRC, you're no stranger to tracking apps), I solved losing my credit cards by getting a slim wallet that attached to my phone, I solved remembering meetings through a combination of Outlook (w/ "Work", "Family", and "Personal" calendars), and I solved remember ToDo list items through apps like ToDoist or RememberTheMilk.

I found a book called The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot. It is a study of Marcus Aurelius and stoicsim and I enjoy it and the history.

Ooh. Thanks for the tip! Will check it out.

My BIL and SIL have been staying with us, 1 week at the end of March, and now again since last Monday. They live in Chicago and decided it would be better here...I am tired of them being here but things aren't real bad or anything and it is a little change of pace so there's some good to it as well.

How does your W feel about sharing the house with your in-laws?

She is always asking about me sleeping in or going to work late and giving me trouble over this. It gets tiring hearing this every week.

I don't know your work situation too well, but why does she care if your work hours begin earlier or later? I suspect you want to move away from her "managing" your timeclock. Normally, you only have to worry about your boss or customers' reaction, unless it's affecting your pay or stability. "I choose to start later sometimes, and my boss/customers are okay with that. Why do you sound concerned?" and if it persists "I get you prefer to work earlier, but I don't." and if it persists, "We disagree; I'm asking you to drop the reminders."

I grab some candy and W wants ice cream. I don't want to give her ice cream so I started cleaning up the kitchen and headed to the bathroom after. I can hear my W fuming about me stomping my feet.

Did you decline politely, or ignore her, or stomp your feet? When my son asks me to get something for him, often I do, but sometimes I might not and say, "Your feet have fallen off so you need my help?"

she ramped up the volume, tone, and language and there we were with me the bad guy. She says I can't see it, I'm being out of line. I know I have a bias here but I'm trying to be cool. I walked out of the room after a while to go workout in the basement, as our conversation was going nowhere.

Did you try applying some validation to her feelings? E.g., "You felt I was angry at you, and that's why I wasn't getting the ice cream." Yes! "Wow--that must have hurt."

I consider leaving this whole R behind a lot lately.

I can see why! I'm sure many of the things I said you've already considered, but I hope there's something useful in there. May you have a good day and get to that relationship somewhere over the rainbow. PS - Don't marry the woman with the green skin. Flying pigs > Flying monkeys.

[ovrrnbw]

Hey guys, I've been reading and thinking through all of your responses. Thank you.

LH, do you recommend people forsake their vows to accomplish their R goals? Is there no other way? I think about this a lot.

Ginger, the whole recurring theme you mentioned stuck with me last week because it is true. I've got plenty to consider here and of course I am open to hearing more. Also, to be clear, I am nowhere near being ready to have a child and made that clear to hear as well.

Curtis, you're making me remember to get out and GAL more, especially once this covid slows down.

IW, thank you.

Neffer, I need to be putting myself first a little more, not in a selfish way but in a way to get my needs met and be able to put my best foot forward every day.

Cwarrior, I think I should get the tile app and system. I like that a lot. But no, I haven't been focused on validating much. Maybe that's extending arguments. My W and her family are super enmeshed, so having her parents and sister around all the time isn't bad for her. And it's not horrible for me either but I don't want roommates.

[LH19]

OB,

It is my opinion that if you want respect and your needs met you have to be willing to walk away from a relationship when your spouse will not accommodate your requests. Of course you communicate your needs in a loving fashion.

Not sure there is another way.

[wayfarer]

So just kind of glancing through your stuff and I'm way newer at this than you are but I saw a few things I'd like to mention. Don't ever forget one of the golden rules around here is take what works for you leave what doesn't.

IMO respect/disrespect is a subjective concept. The reaction to the subjective actions of disrespect are also highly variable and subjective. I could look at H right now and call him and a**hole and he'd smile at me and flip me off and I'd flip him off back and we'd laugh. That's how we behaved pre-BD/A. That's how we behave now post A but no where near piecing. If you took that exact behavior and put it in a different relationship that could look entirely different, and not light hearted or funny the way it is in our household. The other part of that belief is almost every WAS/WS on here is/was cheating. That is pretty much the pinnacle of disrespect in a relationship and the second you decided that an affair isn't a deal breaker is the the second you decided disrespect isn't either. So I personally put very little weight in this whole concept of being disrespected. There are more important things to worry about than disrespect namely the things that are more subjective, as subjective as feelings can be I suppose, that cause imbalance in a relationship. Like one person being a giver while the other is a taker. When one person puts kindness first and the other person sees that as weakness. I think those things are far more important than the broad concept of disrespect. To that end the imbalance in the relationship because of those reasons is an imbalance that can't go left unaddressed forever. Even if that means S/D. Moral obligation or not, your vows did not bind you to the indentured servitude of another person for the rest of your life. No one is obligated to be the whipping boy of another person.

People with bad childhoods and/or poor parental child relationships tend to gravitated toward partners who are in
enmeshed families. Doesn't matter how healthy or unhealthy the family is otherwise. It's just a weird little quirk and I hope for your sake that they are an otherwise stable healthy group.

Tensions are high for every one right now. I see a lot of people who are/were in a pretty good place cycling through anger, sadness, and fear when they up until recently had been pretty ok at the very least for others they were nearly zen like and it's starting to crumble. I'm one of those people myself. I'm sure having house guests indefinitely isn't helping. Make sure you're checking your on emotional flare ups and you're not feeding W's poor behavior. As some one said above maybe check in on W's stress levels with all that's going on plus house guests.

The ice cream thing was petty af, and you know it. She knows it. I know it. We all know it now. Lol. But it was just a misstep, and annoyance. One of the many tiffs we all find ourselves in in long term relationships not the Titanic of your relationship. The getting to work thing could be that you're throwing her off on her daily routine. Instead of digging your heels in maybe try to explore what that's about. What throws me though is that W was that histrionic over things that little. She seems to over react to everything, and to me that doesn't really feel like disrespect. That feels like she's looking for holes in the relationship to keep opening them wider, or she has some kind of personality disorder. And just to be clear I'm not trying to arm chair diagnose here. Many many moons ago I was a WW and I most definitely picked fights to blow them up. I did not however ramp up nearly every single interaction we had because dear lord that's exhausting.

Just some food for thought.

[ovrrnbw]

Well I have to write this down before I forget and let it go by the wayside. Had a lovely fight this morning. I woke up and it was 8 AM and I told W I need to get to work. I wanted to get to work early to get caught up. She thinks I'm spending too much time at work and that I do it to get away (kinda true - my in laws have been there for over 2 weeks now). It was a decent talk but I really don't do well at bringing up the things that bother me or the things that I want in a positive way. It was an argument about how she does a lot for us and I'm coming back saying the same thing. Obviously I could have just listened and validated any frustrations. Then I took a cheap shot saying that pickup these decorations and going to the stores are just fun for her as part of her shopping obsessions. And she blew up.

I gotta wonder why in the hell I do this...it is so dumb and now I am just spinning like a hurt imbecile who keeps doing the same thing over and over. God what in the hell is wrong with me...it's like the only world I know is chaos and attacks and taking shots. I don't know if I'm cut out for marriage sometimes. I know I'm low right and maybe throwing a pity party. Guess I gotta pull out of this.

On the drive in I was thinking, what if when she said "I hope work isn't like this forever" I gave her a back rub and an ILY and told her I'd come home an hour early. I think the script might be flipped.

Wayfarer, thank you for the post, it really hits home. I have seen your postings to others and your insight is helpful.

People with bad childhoods and/or poor parental child relationships tend to gravitated toward partners who are in
enmeshed families

Where did you read or learn about this? Because this struck me as me and her. Her family is great in many ways but there are some drawbacks of being that close too, not that her family is bothered by them.

I told her this morning that she puts them before me and she said it is because the give her more. I know at least part of the reason they do things is to keep her dependent. For example, she got a speeding ticket in college and thought she had to tell her parents. I helped her to call a $50 traffic lawyer to get it fixed (something not every state does) instead of letting her parents handle it for her.

Like one person being a giver while the other is a taker. When one person puts kindness first and the other person sees that as weakness. I think those things are far more important than the broad concept of disrespect. To that end the imbalance in the relationship because of those reasons is an imbalance that can't go left unaddressed forever. Even if that means S/D. Moral obligation or not, your vows did not bind you to the indentured servitude of another person for the rest of your life.

Yes, this sounds quite familiar as well. But it cuts both ways. She is tired of my shortcomings and so am I. I keep looking to her to do something, which isn't a great idea.

Make sure you're checking your on emotional flare ups and you're not feeding W's poor behavior. As some one said above maybe check in on W's stress levels with all that's going on plus house guests.

What does that mean to you? Do you mean to just say to yourself "OK, what is pissing me off? In laws, messes, dogs. I'm not gonna let that get to me OR I'm gonna say something nicely."?

I did not however ramp up nearly every single interaction we had because dear lord that's exhausting.

It does seems like she's looking to make the holes bigger, but I can do this /\ /\ /\

Also, I am an identical twin and I have that brother competition thing going on to an extreme. But I don't talk to my brother since about 5 years ago (surprise, right?).

[wayfarer]

As to the fight. There are a few layers there that I want to touch on. In your position, my cheap shot wouldn't have been so pointed at her faults and flaws, the immediate thing that came to mind with me is that you've offered for her to go in with you to help you catch up and she refused. Now it's a problem you're there too much. This isn't to instigate. Just being in that position that would've been the hard thing for me not to throw in her face and I find it interesting that you let that go, but wanted to shove something adjacent but relatively unrelated in her face. Might be something you want to think on.

The second thing as to the fight is when I do bring myself to post on LBHs posts I feel like there's a common theme of what I like to call the the "that b*tch over there eating her crackers" issues. There is a someecards meme that was put out there like a million years ago about how when you don't like someone everything they do annoys you to the point where when they are just sitting there minding their own business eating lunch all you can process is "look at that b*tch over there eating her crackers." There's something about LBHs where they don't know how to seperate the feelings of being annoyed and frustrated from a person actually instigating a fight with them. You seem quite a bit more self aware. You knew it, but couldn't stop yourself in the moment. Choosing to escalate is never the right choice even if it feels like it. I know sometimes it's unavoidable. We're all imperfect. We're all works in progress. But that should be the goal. Even if you can't validate, if you can't be kind and receptive, which are the ultimate goals obviously, just trying your best to not to escalate is the best you can do in those situations. When these things blow up you both leave feeling like garbage. And it makes finding your footing together again harder and harder every time. On top of that not being in control of your actions and reactions just makes everything harder for you.

The enmeshed family thing has come up for me and my bff in our process of therapy. Both of us had traumatic childhoods. We both pick partners painfully enmeshed in their families. We've had very different therapy journeys with different practitioners and we've both been told that on more than one occasion.

So I'm ridiculously self aware. Some times painfully so. I was an only child until 13 so I live in my head a lot. I've always taken the time to mull over my feelings again and again and again until I can understand it, find the root, and let it go. So for you I see you can see all the choices you could've/should've/would've done this morning on your drive. Maybe take some of that time to figure out what's wrong, or what's really wrong. And if the solution feels like oh this is on me, I'm being a crazy pants/overly emotional/ etc. you can let it go or apologize what ever you feel is right. If you explore it and you see that it's really and interpersonal thing and it's a conversation that needs to be had, mull over it a little longer and find the best way you can possibly say it.

I have a bad temper. Little patience. I bristle when people can't see things as clearly as I can see them. Taking the time to not speak. To walk away. To process what I'm feeling and why, and then practice that conversation over and over again before I actually do it has made things for me better with H and better with other people. I would eat the anger anyway. It's nice to eat it with a more productive result in the end, instead of a huge blow up. The conversations rarely go the way I anticipate, but knowing what's important for me to get out there helps me be a better active listener and better at validating, because I can keep my mouth shut until I feel I have to say what I want to say.