WW Patience, Limbo amd Fear

[AnotherStander]

I get that this shouldn't be about her. I say, Why not if she is the problem?

Because she thinks YOU are the problem, whether you are or not. So if you make it about her, it's just going to make her very angry and you'll be stuck in an endless pattern of "he said, she said".

I dont know what I can do differently.

Learn to be abundantly patient. It's the thing people struggle with most in DB'ing.

So much of dbing and advice is contradictory. I got stuck the other day when W was sick (not the bug in the news) and slept in the mbr. At bedtime I told her Im going to sleep in the master.l as well. She asked if she could stay and I go elsewhere, I said no, Im going to sleep in the mbr. She got upset, said I told her it was ok to sleep in the room (I never said she cant), said our communication is off and left. Instead of validating I told her she is often acting like a victim and will remain one if she doesnt change. We acted normal the next day.

OK so I'm guessing you see this as contradictory because we advise to stay in the MBR, which may seem to contrast with "keep the way hope paved and smooth." Here's the thing, don't confuse placating with being cordial. If you try and placate her, then she will have no respect for you. But if you do things to maintain respect while ALSO being kind and cordial, then THAT is proper DB'ing. So you tell her "I am sleeping in the MBR, you are welcome to sleep wherever you want, that is your choice." You're not telling her to sleep there and you're not telling her not to. You're simply telling her that you're sleeping there. You did nothing wrong in maintaining that you were sleeping there. But you DID mess up with the comment about her playing the victim. You should have validated as it sounds like you already know.

"I am sleeping in the MBR."
"But you told me it was OK to sleep in here!"
"And you are welcome to if that is what you want."
"So you'll leave?"
"No, I am sleeping here regardless of where you sleep."
"But that's not fair! Blah blah blah me me me!"
"It sounds like you're frustrated, is that how you feel? I am sorry you are frustrated."
"So you'll leave so I can sleep here?"
"No, I already told you I am sleeping here and you are welcome to sleep here or wherever you want."

You can be firm and stick to your boundaries while also validating and being understanding.

So virus cohabitating aside and yes, my goal is an intact marriage, ideally with my kids mother...what do I do? Here's the flipside, per DB and advice, I shouldn't file for D or S. Per peoples experience, in home separation doesnt work. Well then, a choice has to be one or the other right? There is no other option.

It's a tough situation to be sure. We all wish we could look into the future and see what the "right" path to take is. But we don't get that luxury, so we have to make some hard choices. In-house separation rarely leads to recon. But out-of-house separation also rarely leads to recon. Divorce rarely leads to recon. What does lead to recon more often than any of these? Time. Most of us just don't give it enough time, after a few months we get tired of waiting and push for S or D ourselves. More often than not here is what happens- the LBS gets tired of waiting. They push for S or D. They eventually detach and move on. THEN the WAS starts getting interested again and putting out feelers. By then most LBS's are done and don't want to expose themselves to that level of harm again. So at the end of the day, most LBS's are the ones that eventually block recon attempts. Simply put, WAS's just take too much time to get their s**t together and the LBS has well and truly moved on by the time they do.

Its not pursuing if I just ask wtf she wants, right?

Yeah any R talk is pressure and pursuit no matter how well-intentioned. And 99/100 times you're just going to hear "I don't know what I want" in response. Then what? Ask again tomorrow? On and on it goes. So you don't ask.

[Liz11]

It's a tough situation to be sure. We all wish we could look into the future and see what the "right" path to take is. But we don't get that luxury, so we have to make some hard choices. In-house separation rarely leads to recon. But out-of-house separation also rarely leads to recon. Divorce rarely leads to recon. What does lead to recon more often than any of these? Time. Most of us just don't give it enough time, after a few months we get tired of waiting and push for S or D ourselves. More often than not here is what happens- the LBS gets tired of waiting. They push for S or D. They eventually detach and move on. THEN the WAS starts getting interested again and putting out feelers. By then most LBS's are done and don't want to expose themselves to that level of harm again. So at the end of the day, most LBS's are the ones that eventually block recon attempts. Simply put, WAS's just take too much time to get their s**t together and the LBS has well and truly moved on by the time they do.

This is sage advice, Core. Speaking as someone who's been separated for a month now, every day that wanes on in separation, especially if you get conflicting messages/feelings from your WAS, makes things harder and harder. I haven't even had the D bomb yet -- my WAH is on the "I don't want a divorce, but I haven't made up my mind if it will come to that" track right now. But he's definitely back to negative to no contact, despite telling someone two weeks ago that he did not want us to end, and I think the drops really shred patience. You have to dig deep to find that patience, and ultimately decide if you even want to hold fast while this mess of process goes on.

I'm sorry you are going through this.

[wayfarer]

Wayfarer, the only other option I see would be me continuing to be used as a doormat for her needs. The gift of time has been great, I just dont see it working when we see each other daily. Im 90 percent sure she still wants that relationship with OM. She had since October to make a change, or at least January when they truly cut off communications. This is all definitely an expectation of mine but a normal one isnt it? W could potentially go years with me in this spot.

Affairs on average take 6-12 months to play out and that's completely unimpeded. No roadblocks, nothing adding to the desire and fantasy. Which is how years and years get tacked on more often than not. Once it's over it takes something like several week up to 3 months for them to get over the affair completely so they can truly re-invest in the marriage IF that's what the betrayer chooses to do. As I see it Steve85s goal of giving it one year. One year of really trying made sense to me personally. If that's not for you then so be it. you were justified to leave at the onset of the affair. And any time since. But other than being in constant over drive about saving this marriage on your terms have you looked at real numbers on these things and made a plan for yourself, your marriage and your family? When I say you seem like you're in crisis, it's because you do. Every thing is agonizing. If you look around here most people who decided to D are incredibly calm in doing so. Like ok this is the next inevitable step. We've been on a similar time line from the beginning here, so I'm struggling to get why you are still thinking there's an instant gratification route here. Because neither route is.

With kids seeing this as a normal marriage and me losing more alimony and time to build another relationship if I can ever trust again after this. I havent seen anything positive, only negative from her. I get why, she wanted out and she felt unsafe, unattracted or both because of my issues. What is your true take on what I do here? Wait it out indefinitely? If I did give more time, we'd still have a 1 to 2 year divorce process to go through. I still have time if I filed today. I think the big difference is W knows Im willing to walk away. Wayfarer, I'm throwing the card out for the kids, not me. I'm hoping it changes her mind. That is true. What I truly want is the kids to see a normal marriage or no marriage. D4 is already copying W and is saying she "isnt supposed to spend time or sit with daddy". Its not what mommys do.

You do what's best for you. You were more than justified to walk away from that MR the second you found out she was cheating. But if any percentage of this is a wake up call for her, which you've admitted it is, I can tell you right now she isn't going to bite.

My attorney divorced when her kid was one and says Ill get 50/50.

Your attorney can't promise you that. At all. If she is you need new counsel. This isn't the world 6 months ago. Or a year ago. You have no idea what your working situations are going to look like by the time this is all over. Without being able to predict income and forecast stability or the availability of child care options. There's no telling what your custody arrangement, or alimony, or anything would look like. Your counsel should be giving you best case scenario, worst case scenario, and working with you for mutual goals. Not making empty promises.

W will need a job. She actually just started one part time and Ive been 60 percent furloughed. The timing [censored].

It does. Which is my whole point. You have the oportunity to slow down and really find yourself and your goals and think about your future on both a path of reconciliation and divorce. Are your courts even processing divorces right now? What's the forecast on first hearings?

This isnt my choice.

It is your choice. It has always been your choice. It will be your choice in the end. You need to accept that.

Please show me another way if there is one. I cant see how accommodating this person will fix my sitch. She has made zero progress to fix her relationships with her family members she removed from her life and she claims to care about them. She resents me and admits that. Say whatever you want here, I ask for 180s and Ive already had a lifetime of being offended.

I gave you my other option. Several times. Taking a step out of the drama isn't accommodation. Worrying about what relationships your wife has or hasn't fixed isn't DBing. It's definitely not detaching. You resent her too. I resent my H. My H resents me. My kids resent both of us. My bff resent her H. Her H resent her. My grandmother resents my grandfather my grandfather resents my grandmother. It's the nature of long term relationships. This is that impossible expectations thing I keep bringing up. You can't escape resentment in long lasting relationships of any kind. But you can work through them in a healthy manner vs something toxic or destructive.

I think you need to dig into that life time of being offended and maybe read through your postings on here. I think there's some introspection to be had there. Give it a try. Working on you. Just this once. It's not like you can get a court date tomorrow. Or like she can sign a new lease.

[Core]

I see why AS is the validation king. You're right, me bringing up the topic and asking for an answer next day is pressure. I see how time helps and I also see it as an enemy. I was ready and willing to take her back for several months, despite what she did and my ego saying no. After months of abuse then months of inaction, I lost any feelings for her. Time may heal her but it pulled me away.

On patience....patience hurts the kids and I both if we D in the end. W is also asking to put money in to the house. Thats such a waste if we sell the place. I truly think she's ok living like this until my youngest is in kindergarten. I cant, and dont want to. I've heard of long limbos but that is insane. If we were friends or friends with benefits maybe I'd have more patience.

AS as always I appreciate the insight. I see how I could've handled the mbr situation better.

Beth, Im sorry you are going through this as well. Womens sitches seem to be much more successful here, not always but a higher chance. Ive never heard the saying Hell hath no fury like a man scorned....just the opposite. I wish you the best and will check out your sitch.

I used my resource and see my W hasnt contacted anyone today. Im shocked that shes contacted no one for support.

Ive no idea what to expect when/if we do talk in the morning. I know she wants D, but will she say it or avoid. I guess either way, I need to proceed with starting the process as I stated. Shes probably relieved to not have to do the work.

[Core]

So W and I had the chat. She chose mediation which we all probably expected. She said she wanted time to think about things but since I gave an ultimatum, she chose mediation. In the end, she still says she wants time which we all knew was going to happen. I kind of have to follow up on my word and schedule it. She told me she has been working on herself and things all this time. I dont see it but she seemed honest in this. It turned in to a 40 minute relationship chat.

She apologized for what she did but wasnt remorseful. Thinks divorcing is the hard route but its the one she wants to take. The convo actually pulled me a little closer to her though I'm sure it wasnt the same for her. She wants the family but isn't willing to work on it. Cant see herself being intimate again.

She listed out gripes with me, that I cant tell if she's expecting me to work on them or what. One is what Wayfarer already mentioned....expectations. Either way, she says something in her was destroyed and doesnt see how it can be fixed. I guess from here I start mediation then or do I give her time? If I give time, it looks like I am pursuing.

[LH19]

C,

I am really sorry you are going through this right now.

Ultimately you can drag your feet with it but if that’s the case why did you just wait? She’s not going to change her mind right now. We as humans are controlled by are thoughts. If she thinks she can never be intimate with you again. Well guess what? That’s how she will feel.

It’s crazy how the human brain works. She told you she can’t see herself being intimate with you again. That your family isn’t worth working for and listed all your flaws and you indicated it made you feel closer.

So much of this is people not understanding the human brain, emotions, hormones and what it takes to make a successful relationship.

It’s very sad.

Chin up Core it will get better.

[wayfarer]

You felt closer because she was being open and honest with you even if it stung. You've grown enough to sit in the pain of something like that and not react, just receive. Being that open to her truth built a moment of emotional intimacy. She let you in. And she hasn't in a long time. You let her in. That's why you you felt closer. Emotional intimacy. That moment. The calm, ok that's how you feel, this is how I feel, I guess this is how we are going forward. That calm is the calm I've been pushing you towards this whole time. Try to maintain that version of yourself. Non-reactionary. Open. Accepting. You'll need that guy going forward.

[wooba]

With kids seeing this as a normal marriage and me losing more alimony and time to build another relationship if I can ever trust again after this. I havent seen anything positive, only negative from her. I get why, she wanted out and she felt unsafe, unattracted or both because of my issues. What is your true take on what I do here? Wait it out indefinitely? If I did give more time, we'd still have a 1 to 2 year divorce process to go through. I still have time if I filed today. I think the big difference is W knows Im willing to walk away. Wayfarer, I'm throwing the card out for the kids, not me. I'm hoping it changes her mind. That is true. What I truly want is the kids to see a normal marriage or no marriage. D4 is already copying W and is saying she "isnt supposed to spend time or sit with daddy". Its not what mommys do.

Just want to chime in about the kids. I used to think about this as well with my kids (sometimes still do) - is this the type of father that they will model after in the future? Do they know that this is not "normal"? How is H showing them what responsibility is? ...etc. But I've come to realize that there is no normal. Kids will see enough "normal" from stories and TV to have a certain expectation of what a parental figure is supposed to be like. And over their life time they will go through their own experiences and tweak it themselves to have their own definition. One strong/stable parent is more than enough. In the grand scheme of things, this limbo is really not that long. Not that I am advocating for you to keep waiting, I just think that in most cases, more patience also benefits the LBS.

[Core]

Ultimately you can drag your feet with it but if that’s the case why did you just wait? She’s not going to change her mind right now. We as humans are controlled by are thoughts. If she thinks she can never be intimate with you again. Well guess what? That’s how she will feel.

It’s crazy how the human brain works. She told you she can’t see herself being intimate with you again. That your family isn’t worth working for and listed all your flaws and you indicated it made you feel closer.

So much of this is people not understanding the human brain, emotions, hormones and what it takes to make a successful relationship.

It’s very sad.

Chin up Core it will get better.

Thank you LH. Its nice having your perspective. It feels good to at least be taking a step towards an outcome here, even if its not the one I wanted for the kids or myself.

You felt closer because she was being open and honest with you even if it stung. You've grown enough to sit in the pain of something like that and not react, just receive. Being that open to her truth built a moment of emotional intimacy. She let you in. And she hasn't in a long time. You let her in. That's why you you felt closer. Emotional intimacy. That moment. The calm, ok that's how you feel, this is how I feel, I guess this is how we are going forward. That calm is the calm I've been pushing you towards this whole time. Try to maintain that version of yourself. Non-reactionary. Open. Accepting. You'll need that guy going forward.

Woah, this post from you surprised me. I did look back through my posts and I see what you mean. I'm almost always in turmoil when I'm posting. I cant believe some of you could determine what I was communicating based on how scattered some comments were. The person in my last post is who I am most of the time. The person from most of my posts is who I was for a large amount of the time post kid, sleep loss and losing my way. Your post makes sense, totally shows how I got drawn in during the chat. It was our first deep chat in months.

Just want to chime in about the kids. I used to think about this as well with my kids (sometimes still do) - is this the type of father that they will model after in the future? Do they know that this is not "normal"? How is H showing them what responsibility is? ...etc. But I've come to realize that there is no normal. Kids will see enough "normal" from stories and TV to have a certain expectation of what a parental figure is supposed to be like. And over their life time they will go through their own experiences and tweak it themselves to have their own definition. One strong/stable parent is more than enough. In the grand scheme of things, this limbo is really not that long. Not that I am advocating for you to keep waiting, I just think that in most cases, more patience also benefits the LBS.

I hope thats the case and thanks for chiming in Wooba! I find my W acts alot like her mother in her parents relationship and I act like my dad. Thats what scared me as far as my kids learning from my W. Plus D4 is at the age of copying everything mommy does. Mostly good and with some bad for her future relationships.


I went ahead and scheduled the mediation. I wish it was her doing the leg work but its my choice to end it sooner than later. Her words during our chat do show me that shes given things some thought. No large effort however some time was spent. She tried to dump off guilt from her EA and I told her Im not talking about that now. Not sure why, I think it was her lack of remorse or that I'm not ready to forgive.

I feel that life is about family. Family first. That's what life is for and what its about. Its a shame that Ws focus moved away from that to self sustainability. Partly I am responsible. Moving to mediation makes my look conflicted or like a liar. Im doing it to preserve my kids future. We all say put the kids first here. Infinite limbo is not healthy for them, nor are bad examples. Im financially smart and I'll recover from this to ensure more sound teenage and later years for them.

Wife, I'm sorry its come to this. We said we'd never hurt each other, never leave each other. We said we would grow a family and put our marriage first for the kids. How sadly we were mistaken. Those with the highest aspirations can fall the furthest. I dont forgive, condone or believe what you did was ok, but I understand why you thought it was the path you needed at the time. What you've done to the family is not ok. I hope you can find yourself.

[AnotherStander]

She told me she has been working on herself and things all this time. I dont see it but she seemed honest in this. It turned in to a 40 minute relationship chat.

Is she in IC? That would be a good step towards that end. Hopefully she's not just referring to some inner dialog that's taking place because that's not really progress.

She apologized for what she did but wasnt remorseful.

Very typical WAS mindset.

She listed out gripes with me, that I cant tell if she's expecting me to work on them or what.

Probably not, usually it's just their way of explaining/ justifying why they want out of the M. If you work on those things she'll say it's "too little too late". Some of it may fall under rewriting history, but if she told you some things that rang true then work on those things. Not for her, but for you, and for the future lady in your life. Your W may not grow from this but you can and should.

I guess from here I start mediation then or do I give her time? If I give time, it looks like I am pursuing.

This choice should be 100% based on what YOU want, not her. Do you want to be done with the M, or do you want to give it some time? She's unlikely to change for a year or more, so we're talking about a lot of time, not a little. If you're not sure then take some time to think it over. I usually suggest that if you have any doubts then reevaluate in a month. When you get to the point where you have no doubts for a month or more, then you're ready.