Help with WW #2

[LH19]

O,

I’m really sorry. You’re doing the right thing by seeing a lawyer. I’m not sure but I don’t think you have children correct? If not, consider filing. You deserve better.

[OS2]

No children. Thanks, I think you're right.

[sandi2]

She has offered transparency but I haven't checked yet (I know, stupid I should have but just figured if she was hiding something she'd be clean when she just moved back in anyway).

She is deceitful. IDK if she has always been deceitful & manipulative, but she is now. Being back in the house did not flip any switches for her. Apparently, you thought it would. I'm trying hard to tell you not to believe everything she says, and not to trust her. She is not trustworthy, and she has to do the work to get there. It's HER work to do! She can't demand that you just start trusting her again. One of our former champions use to say, "Trust, but verify", which means never take just what she says as the truth. She hasn't made a transformation from waywardness yet. She might......but not as long as you keeping believing her b.s.

Because I found out by snooping I've tried to not do that.

I don't think you should check every day, especially if you can't handle what you might discover. Snooping becomes habit forming, and it's very unhealthy. If she agreed to transparency, then you need to see something that verifies she's being honest. Since you can't trust her word right now, the best bet is to check out the phone......preferably without her watching. Has she given all her passwords? Have you checked bills, in case there is a secret phone she's using? Has she written in her own hand, a letter to OM, stating their affair was the worst mistake she ever made, and for him to never contact her again, b/c she loves her H and wants to save her M? Of course, you would need to have the final read, and make sure you mailed it, not her. This is as "formal" of a breakup with OM as is allowed. There are no last meetings with OM, on the pretense of ending their A. She has to go cold turkey with NC.

There is more that will need to happen, but these are the first basic things. She's going to experience withdrawals, once she finally goes NC, and that will be the true test for her, and she may backslide on the contact, before she makes it. It depends on what you do. You couldn't continue giving her chances, if you know what I mean. One slip up, maybe. Two slip ups? You're done.

She hasn't moved everything back in yet and went to talk to her mum last night who knows about OM. She came back in floods of tears which made me think she'd chatted with OM over messages and her mum and decided to end it.

I bawled like a baby when I ended things, (I didn't send a letter, just went NC cold turkey). I had seen him as my last chance at happiness, so in my mind, my life was over. It was tough, I won't lie. But I did get through the withdrawals, finally, and my H and I are still together. So, she can do it, too. I am here offering help while both of you go through the process. I can't write everything in one post, although Lord knows, I try. That's why you have to continue posting and reading, b/c the hard work hasn't even made a dent yet. It doesn't come overnight, but you can make it!

I remember Steve85 above saying how much it hurts when your W is mourning the loss of OM. I thought she was doing that last night, yep, hurts.

She's been home how many days? Yes, she'll drag around, feeling sorry for herself, and then watch out, b/c the withdrawals hit and she'll want contact with him worse than just about anything in life. That's why it's important for her to work on transparency. Transparency and support from my mentors got me through those times I was so weak. Once you know she's really trying, then you can offer support (and I'll share more about that later), but for now.....you need to wait and verify her activity. Stop swallowing what she says as the truth. Seeing her sad, depressed, etc., is actually a good sign, b/c that's what happens when she's not in contact with OM. As long as she's pretending everything is perfect, (except for sex, of course), she's lying.

This morning she went out and then said she isn't sure about the M anymore and whether it would be "kinder to let me go". I now think she wants me but doesn't want to lose him rather than the other way round.

It's b.s. I said stuff like that, but it wasn't b/c I wanted my H. She's can't desire her H and OM at the same time. Men are wired to have sex with multiple partners. Women are physically capable of multiple partners, but her soul will only desire one man. In other words, she can't be in love with two men at the same time. That's how she is wired. She may be carrying a torch for this other guy, but if you love her and want to save your M, then hang on and give it more time.

She's played it all down so much (and continues to play it all down) but I can't see why she isn't wanting to make the M work unless there is something stopping her. This wasn't obvious at first when she moved back - she seemed different. She's been different again last night/today though, like she's opened up to the idea of leaving OM. I find the whole thing so awful though but don't know if I'm reading everything correctly though, so can't call her out on anything. I go from thinking it's all over with OM and rationalising any fears due to classic betrayed spouse being sensitive to thinking it's still going on and reading the signs differently.

You are listening to her words, instead of hearing what we tell you. Your emotions are all over the place, b/c you are allowing them to make decisions, instead of your brain. (No offense)

The problem is her story is unchanging and a big part of me wants to believe her and help her. The other part is angry/hurt and very sceptical and it changes my approach all the time.

But it's her "story", not necessarily the truth. Are you hearing me when I tell you why there has to be a transparency plan in place?

- If she is having doubts should I ask her to move out again until she wants to work at M? She says she is struggling to be completely committed. I don't know whether OM is the cause of this or not conclusively, but if she is having doubts should I tell her to go?

Of course she has doubts, b/c she is still operating out of her emotions. Commitment is the important thing. That's much more than some guys get when they their WW goes back home. Transparency will eventually tell the story there. Why let her go just b/c she's feeling her first little pane of withdrawals? She's having a rough time, so bear with it a while.

As of last night she has started to show physical interest (despite what she's said!) Either to see what it feels like or because she is trying to figure out what she wants. Should I respond?

She's testing to see if she feels any desire for you, and push feelings for OM aside. It's a cheap shot, IMHO, but it b/c she is so afraid she won't ever feel happy and in-love again. My advice is to tell her you think it would be better to wait a while. I mean, don't be rude or make her feel bad, but she's testing her feelings, and they aren't there yet. Doesn't mean it won't come, so don't get too down and out about what I've shared. I'm telling you the things your W will not tell you, okay? I've been where she is now. It's hard for both spouses.

- She has suggested moving out for a while to "sort her head out". Should I allow this? I've wondered what this would achieve. I've said it's up to her what she does.

My H told me if I moved out, there would be no coming back home again. I think your W may have to be told the same thing. But only if you can hold your word. I KNEW my H wasn't throwing idle words around. Guess what? I didn't leave. She can sort her head just as good at home as anywhere else. This is WW code, meaning she wants to see OM again. Don't agree to it, and if she leaves, then move on with your life. Stop with the back & forth moves.

- She's said she wants me to tell her what to do and she'll do it - time away, a week together with 0 contact with anyone. She said she'll try anything, she just wants to get back on track. I thought this might be a good idea, but I don't want to force distance between her and OM. I need to find out more of what's going on I think.

She is willing, or says she's willing, so that is your clue to step up. I don't suggest you start going to a romantic get away, or anything like that, b/c she doesn't have those romantic feeling right now. Your job is to distract her from OM. Distant them all you can! Plan the evenings to be spent with friends of the marriage (not her leaving with other women for the evening). Just keeping it the two of you every moment may cause her to feel as if she's smothering. Plan on having others over for cookouts, playing board games, or whatever you do when friends are over. Keep the atmosphere light, causal, and incorporate as much fun as possible. Watch funny movies together. Don't watch serious romance stuff, or sad movies. Same thing about the music playing. Of course, you have to kind of judge her mood, and I don't know your personality, but keep things light-hearted as possible. There will be down times, of course, and don't get on her nerves clowning too much.

I don't know if she'd listen to you (it's a thin line right now), or read it for herself if you found the information, but it helped me to learn how being in an affair chemically affects your brain. There are hormones released that has the same initial feelings of falling in love. I can't explain it like the scientific facts, but it has been proven how affairs are addictive. That's why she feels so desperate to see OM......and why she will experience withdrawals. Although I still went had to go through the process, I just kept reminding myself (as well as my mentors reminded me) what was happening and that things would get better. If you google PEAs, I think you can read more about it. I didn't get too bogged down, b/c of all the science terms. Don't know how I would have responded if the it had been my H providing the information. Probably not near as well as coming from my board mentors.

I think it may be best to wait until she's much further along with withdrawals, but sometime in the very near future, you both need to attend MC. I'm talking about with the focus being on healing from an affair, not some everyday counselor that is basically pro-divorce and tells you to go find happiness out there. Both of you need to heal, and have solutions for old and future problems.

- I believe she is on the turn at giving the M another chance and finding the spark again, but if OM is still in contact that won't happen. Do I just hang tight in the current situation? Do I act affectionate as if I don't suspect what is going on or do I call her out on all this that I think. She will say I'm dreaming it though because I have no proof currently.

Well, I think I've already answered this, so I won't repeat it. Don't get too affectionate after going to bed. During the day/evening, you can give her nonsexual touches. Let her get used to the nonsexual, and don't go for more intimate touches right now. Don't act as if you suspect anything, or that you believe every word that comes out of her mouth. Put on your best poker face.

This period is where a couple needs to work on their friendship, for lack of a better word. Don't jump off into deep water, trying to rekindle hot, passionate sex right off the bat. She's not ready, and may not be ready for some time. I hope not too long, for your sake, and for the sake of the MR.

[OS2]

Thank you Sandi2. That's all very good advice, and I would probably be continuing following that if I hadn't found out that W is still seeing OM ^^^. I did need to know though that she's been seeing him in person. She was quite matter of fact about it but of course that was in front of him too so she chose not to spin it for my benefit in front of him. I told her a few days ago that if she was still seeing him etc it would be over, I said I just wouldn't be able to take the idea of her lying so blatantly while we were trying to work things out.

I'm sure I'm right that she tried to leave him a few nights ago and that's why she was in floods of tears. She couldn't sleep so stayed up apparently, presumably messaging him and then most of the next morning. And she didn't seem upset anymore so I figured she had tried but decided it was too difficult. Sandi2 - all of those things you've written above, I can see her trying in all off them but couldn't bring herself to cut him out. It feels too late now to see this as yet another bump in the road back and maybe she'd be able to cut him out a second time.

She's wasted no time sending messages round to a few friends telling them it's over between us. After finding out I've cleared the house of her things and they are waiting to be collected. I'm seeing a L tomorrow. Wonder what the odds are of D papers saving marriages. Or divorced partners getting back together. Slim to none I would have thought. I've thought about it carefully because I appreciate D papers are a final step. I think W may expect me to give her more time to sort her head out and may be shocked when I file.

Sandi2 - do you think I'm handling this in the right way? She's seemed close this last few weeks to finally trying to save the M. She sent me several messages telling me how wonderful she thinks I am, and saying how she doesn't feel good enough to be with me. I feel sorry for W because I think she'll live to regret all this when the mind-altering drug of the A wears off and she realises what she's given up for so little.

[sandi2]

Sandi2 - do you think I'm handling this in the right way? She's seemed close this last few weeks to finally trying to save the M. She sent me several messages telling me how wonderful she thinks I am, and saying how she doesn't feel good enough to be with me. I feel sorry for W because I think she'll live to regret all this when the mind-altering drug of the A wears off and she realises what she's given up for so little.

Frankly, yes I do agree. She's playing games. I'm not going to tell you to divorce her, hoping it will shock senses back into her head. If you file, do it b/c you are done with her messing around. Is there hope of getting back together after a divorce? I honestly have not heard (or remember) of a case involving a wayward W. There was one case that might have made it, but he stopped posting, so not for sure they ever remarried. There have been some cases on the board where the WW would tempt her divorced H, and continue playing games with him. Then he would discover she hadn't changed from her waywardness at all.

For the WW to change, she must suffer some type of personal loss that comes as a result of her waywardness. For me, it was my D discovering my online activity with OM. It destroyed years & years of trying to instill the core values in them....not to mention the religious values my family holds dear. I had always taught my children these standards, and had for the most part, I had lived it. However, I lost that incredible respect from my adult daughter.

I had actually planned to prep my kids by talking to them about having marital problems with their dad, and slowly introduce OM into the picture (classic WW move). That plan was shot down when the day my D told me she knew about OM. Plus, I was actually shocked to realize my family would continue to go forward without me. Let me move off with OM, they would still be together........and, supporting their dad. I'll also add that little things had been working together to cause me to see a few cracks in the fantasy I had built about my future life with OM. So, call it perfect time. My eyes were opened and I could see what I was losing. Now, for some other WW, it might be a different kind of loss......but that was mine. I knew my kids loved me, but their respect was the most important thing in my life, and I lost it b/c of my own actions. Did I immediately change overnight? No,.......I just started seeing reality better, and realizing the damage I was causing myself. You'd think I would have realized the damage I would cause my family, but that's the insane selfishness of a wayward mindset, the WW is so lost in her own fantasy that she can excuse everything away.

Anyway, I had a long, hard process ahead. I struggled with my feelings; was terribly depressed; didn't think I'd ever be happy in my M; went through about six months of affair withdrawals (four months hard withdrawals, two more months that were not quite as bad); and was so full of pride that I actually prayed that God would help me feel remorse for what I had done to my H. The problem was..... I continued to keep the affair alive in my head. I would think about how things may have gone, the should of--could of stuff. Finally, one night I was so terribly depressed and was genuinely praying to have peace. I had to do some deep soul digging. I knew I had not let go of the fantasy and it was keeping the affair alive in my head.........which was preventing me from making progress. (It's the same when a woman has an imaginary affair.) I started thinking that if my H could forgive me, then why couldn't I forgive him for past issues I was so bitter about. The remorse came. The humility came. I was broken by what I had done to the trust we once cherished. It took me nearly two years before I felt any emotional energy to put into my MR. Shocking, isn't it? I tell you this, b/c very few H's can imagine the WW's recovering process. To his logical brain, it seems it should be fairly simple to fix. But he is thinking from the viewpoint of "love". He loves her and he has the desire to work hard on their MR. But, she doesn't have those feelings. Not until she does the work to get herself straightened out and her mindset is healthy again. Not every WW is the same, and the length of time isn't the same. However, I have reason to believe the process is much the same.

[OS2]

Thanks Sandi. When she messaged after I found out W said she feels she "needs to be single for a bit" and "sort her head out". Of course telling her it's over makes me think she's jumped straight into bed with OM if that wasn't already the case. It seems like she was just waiting for me to give up so she could justify it to herself and tell everyone we've broken up. Maybe she wants to date him for a bit and see how she feels? Or maybe she's confused and upset just like I am and just wants to give everything time without each other. I've no idea. My gut says the OM means a lot more to her than she lets on and she's infatuated with him.

She's not picked her stuff up yet, she said it was too emotional. I wonder whether that will drag on now. Should I take it round for her or be prepared to wait a while? In terms of personal loss, the only thing to lose is me and the life we were heading for. She's talked about the future a lot recently - where we might live, children, pets. I think that was her trying to fixate on her rational side, not the confused A emotions. No children to disappoint, her mum knows most of her sitch but not the Ab. I think she will be giving up far more than OM who is single. I've told her we can meet in a few days to talk about what happens next but haven't mentioned D yet. Given what's happened I think it will be inevitable now from my side though, she would just have too much work and sacrifice to make and I don't think she's strong enough. I've not got time to wait around for her to decide what she wants. I sort of wish I'd had this mentality from the beginning. Guess a lot of people say that.

[LH19]

O,

Sorry man but it’s all WW bs she is feeding you. She’s not confused she’s 100 percent sure right now she wants OM. About picking up stuff being too emotional. You tell her it’s in the front yard and she’ll be there to pick it up. Did you talk to your lawyer? I wouldn’t meet with her I would either sit tight or have her served.

[Traveler]

I wouldn’t meet with her I would either sit tight or have her served.

+1. No need to "mention" D in an R talk, hoping for a reaction. If you're not ready for D, sit tight. If you are ready--and that's a consistent feeling everyday for at least a week or two--go ahead and serve her. There's often the urge to "do something", even when the only identified actions are harmful.

Sorry this is happening to you. Sounds like a hard week.

[sandi2]

When she messaged after I found out W said she feels she "needs to be single for a bit" and "sort her head out".

That's what I mean. She's not ready.

Of course telling her it's over makes me think she's jumped straight into bed with OM if that wasn't already the case. It seems like she was just waiting for me to give up so she could justify it to herself and tell everyone we've broken up.

No, you are thinking like a logical LBH. She didn't have to wait for you to tell her it's over. She didn't need to feel released or given permission to be with another man. She didn't need anything to justify breaking up, b/c she's going to give a false version anyway. People who know you and love you will know the truth. You can't help what she says and thinks, or tells others. She'd do it, regardless.

Maybe she wants to date him for a bit and see how she feels?

Then she needs to divorce. Since when it is right for a spouse to date someone, just to see how it makes her feel? Wrong is wrong, and it would have been the more decent thing for her to give you a divorce, if she wanted to date. See what I mean? If what you say above is true, where does that put you? Any self respecting man is not going to wait on the shelf while his WW is with another man, until she decides which man she wants. B/c the minute her H goes on the shelf, she has no respect for him as a man.

Or maybe she's confused and upset just like I am and just wants to give everything time without each other.

If what you say were true, she wouldn't need to engage in an affair with OM. That's one of the differences between a WAW and the WW. A walk-away W doesn't have another guy in the picture. She doesn't leave b/c she wants more time to see how the affair with OM goes. The WAW might actually take space & time to sort problems out or even her feelings.......but it would not include sorting feelings for another man.

My gut says the OM means a lot more to her than she lets on and she's infatuated with him.

Well, there you go. Yes, she is infatuated, and it gives her those same feelings of freshly falling in love. It's addictive. It's also wrong to pursue it when she's married to you.

She's not picked her stuff up yet, she said it was too emotional. I wonder whether that will drag on now. Should I take it round for her or be prepared to wait a while?

Whatever is less emotional for you. Frankly, I lean toward you getting her stuff out of there. She would drag it on, I think, and yes, she would cry etc, b/c she's a woman. She's closing a chapter in her life, so she gets emotional. Everything the WW does is based on emotions, so the fact she might shed a few tears doesn't mean a lot. I think it might put more strain on you, standing around watching her getting her things, and she'll probably want a good-bye hug. That often confuses the H, but it's all b.s. emotions. She's going to be with her lover, so her tears will be dried as soon as she gets out of the driveway. Sorry, if this is too harsh to hear. I don't want you having any illusions about how she responds.

I've not got time to wait around for her to decide what she wants. I sort of wish I'd had this mentality from the beginning. Guess a lot of people say that.

Yeah, well you know what they say about hindsight.

I realize the majority of my posts are a lot for the LBH newcomer to undertake. I am guilty of trying to feed as much information about WW's as I can, hoping he can avoid some pitfalls. It's all just so bizarre for him, and he struggles to make sense of it.

I'm really sorry she didn't get her eyes opened. I'm more sorry for the pain you've experienced. You know, I may not be the cheerleader type, but my goal & desire is to help by getting the information out there. ((hugs))

[OS2]

Thanks everyone, agree with the comments - you're all right I guess. W wanted this and although at different points along the journey she's thought of coming back she never got over OM and that's why she is where she is. I've found it very useful even though I haven't always followed the advice here very well. Might it have been different if I took a harder line earlier? I don't know but the way she's acted recently has been pretty terrible really. She may come to reason eventually and I feel sorry for her if that's the case because she's lost a good H in me who was willing to look past all her mistakes, cherish her and build the M from scratch. I don't think she'll be able to find anybody quite like what I've been for her.

I realize the majority of my posts are a lot for the LBH newcomer to undertake. I am guilty of trying to feed as much information about WW's as I can, hoping he can avoid some pitfalls. It's all just so bizarre for him, and he struggles to make sense of it.

I'm really sorry she didn't get her eyes opened. I'm more sorry for the pain you've experienced. You know, I may not be the cheerleader type, but my goal & desire is to help by getting the information out there. ((hugs))

Thank you Sandi, your legendary status on this board is well deserved. Thanks for all your advice.

I've told W she needs to pick up her stuff or I'll drop it round which I will do tomorrow. I'll just be pleased it's not in the house anymore to be honest because it makes me sad reminding me of everything that's been thrown away. I expect I'll be posting before too long updating on the D. I'm aiming to be firm, fair and friendly throughout proceedings. We still care about each other on some level so hopefully it will end pleasantly.