Scout and unchien, Thank you both for your thoughtful responses! I will try to respond more in depth later today. Right now I’m just venting about last night.
After D4 went to bed, H asked if I was ready to talk (which was super weird, because he is the ultimate avoider and has very rarely initiated talks about things he knows I’m upset about). I told him that I really didn’t want to have a big talk about it or escalate the topic. I said that I feel strongly that good coparents should have sets of agreements about the big, important topics, and that I was very surprised to hear him sounding like he doesn’t agree with that, but that I don’t have a lot more to say at the moment. He was visibly annoyed. He threw hands up as if to ask “what??” I said if you have anything you want to say I’m happy to listen? He said he didn’t. So I said great, and went back to my cooking.
Then H asked “what if I gave you more money every week?” (I’ve lost my income due to Covid-19 lockdown, and he pried that information out of me a few weeks ago). I said I’m not sure I know what you’re asking me? He said in a very resigned, annoyed sounding voice “I’m going to start giving you X amount more money every week”. I told him that while that would be very helpful, I don’t feel very good about that idea. I told him he is clearly already resentful of it and he hasn’t even done it yet. I said that since it doesn’t sound like there is any good will attached to it, I’m guessing you want to do that to assuage your own guilt, and that doesn’t feel very kind. I feel like you bringing up this “offer” of much needed help while simultaneously making clear how much you resent it puts me in a tough position. If I accept, I feel you will simply add it to your list of resentments to hold over me, and that’s the last thing I want for myself.
He was annoyed by this. He went into a whole thing about how he’s so frustrated with the financial situation. He said that once the divorce goes through and the dollar amount he owes me is “on the books” that he won’t feel so guilty and responsible for making sure I’m ok. I told him that I doubt that’s true. He could calculate the amount of money he’ll be required to pay me at any time and adjust the voluntary support accordingly. I said I think that it’s a fantasy that the paperwork of the divorce will wipe those feelings away for him. I said I feel that he is combining the on paper logistics with the complex emotional aspects. He strongly disagreed with all of it.
At this point he is seeming super eager to get the final pieces of the divorce done, because he believes he won’t feel any more “pressure responsibility or guilt”. That is really upsetting to hear. But that’s where he is. It’s a sudden flip, which he’s done several times after periods of him being warm and pursuant. I think I’ve been picking up on this and it’s what made me want to make a statement and give him all his stuff. Like saying “ you’re free already. I’m not holding you back.”
I want to say up front that I prefer hard feedback on my own situation, so I hope I don't offend you with what follows. It is just one internet stranger's reaction after following your sitch for some time.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
After D4 went to bed, H asked if I was ready to talk (which was super weird, because he is the ultimate avoider and has very rarely initiated talks about things he knows I’m upset about). I told him that I really didn’t want to have a big talk about it or escalate the topic. I said that I feel strongly that good coparents should have sets of agreements about the big, important topics, and that I was very surprised to hear him sounding like he doesn’t agree with that, but that I don’t have a lot more to say at the moment. He was visibly annoyed. He threw hands up as if to ask “what??” I said if you have anything you want to say I’m happy to listen? He said he didn’t. So I said great, and went back to my cooking.
He doesn't agree with your idea that you should agree on big topics, or he doesn't agree on a specific point?
Originally Posted by HopeCA
Then H asked “what if I gave you more money every week?” (I’ve lost my income due to Covid-19 lockdown, and he pried that information out of me a few weeks ago). I said I’m not sure I know what you’re asking me? He said in a very resigned, annoyed sounding voice “I’m going to start giving you X amount more money every week”. I told him that while that would be very helpful, I don’t feel very good about that idea.
I sense from your posts that you feel stronger than ever before, and you want to stand up for yourself and let your H know how you feel as part of being more assertive.
I wonder if leaving out your feelings in these communications would help make them a bit more businesslike and less likely to frustrate you (or him).
For instance: "I appreciate your offer for money. Although that would be helpful, I politely decline."
No need to share your feelings. He doesn't care right now.... unless you start talking about how things are hard and then he likes being a shoulder to cry on.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
I told him he is clearly already resentful of it and he hasn’t even done it yet. I said that since it doesn’t sound like there is any good will attached to it, I’m guessing you want to do that to assuage your own guilt, and that doesn’t feel very kind. I feel like you bringing up this “offer” of much needed help while simultaneously making clear how much you resent it puts me in a tough position. If I accept, I feel you will simply add it to your list of resentments to hold over me, and that’s the last thing I want for myself.
I have a soft 2x4 here -- I would consider saying none of this in the future. Keep these thoughts and feelings to yourself. You are mind-reading him (possibly correctly, but still...). It's fuel for escalating things. I completely understand your desire to stand up for yourself and poor treatment, and to express yourself to your H finally, but he's just not going to hear any of it the way you want him to anyways.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
He was annoyed by this. He went into a whole thing about how he’s so frustrated with the financial situation. He said that once the divorce goes through and the dollar amount he owes me is “on the books” that he won’t feel so guilty and responsible for making sure I’m ok. I told him that I doubt that’s true. He could calculate the amount of money he’ll be required to pay me at any time and adjust the voluntary support accordingly.
Good statement... you offered him a solution.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
I said I think that it’s a fantasy that the paperwork of the divorce will wipe those feelings away for him. I said I feel that he is combining the on paper logistics with the complex emotional aspects. He strongly disagreed with all of it.
Same soft 2x4 applies here.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
At this point he is seeming super eager to get the final pieces of the divorce done, because he believes he won’t feel any more “pressure responsibility or guilt”. That is really upsetting to hear. But that’s where he is. It’s a sudden flip, which he’s done several times after periods of him being warm and pursuant. I think I’ve been picking up on this and it’s what made me want to make a statement and give him all his stuff. Like saying “ you’re free already. I’m not holding you back.”
Sounds like he has a tangled mess of emotions to sort through on his own.
You don’t offend me at all! I, too come here for honest feedback of any and all kinds. And I think you are probably right about it all.
To answer your question, I’m not sure which it is he doesn’t agree with. It’s possible that he only disagrees about the point at hand, but he kind of doubled down and made it sound like he disagreed about what it looks like to coparent. I said this to him because he had texted me that the way he parents our daughter is going to be “his business”, in response to me saying I was that it was my understanding that he didn’t plan to return to adhering to the agreement we’d made. He had also said “we had an agreement, but things change”.
Those (infuriating) statements sound to me like someone who is saying “I’m going to do my own thing and don’t want to cooperate or have to adhere to any agreements with you”. So I was simply letting him know that was my understanding of his statements. If it is simply that he doesn’t agree on that one point, then I figure there will be a time to sort that out, when things are less tense.
I think you’re right about your 2X4s. Im annoyed at myself about it, because I had a plan to avoid getting into a talk with him and I executed it. And instead of taking the out, avoiding talking and leaving as I expected him to, he pulled me into a different talk, and I allowed him to.
I’m having a new combination of emotions and it’s throwing me. I’m feeling simultaneously strong/wanting to stand up for myself and say “enough”, combined with feeling sadder, and more heartbroken than I have in awhile. It’s not just that I wanted reconciliation, it’s that I really believed we had a chance, and I don’t feel that way anymore. That leads to feelings of desperation for me, and it’s a lot of work for me to sort out which impulses stem from my desperation so that I can stop myself from taking those actions.
Those (infuriating) statements sound to me like someone who is saying “I’m going to do my own thing and don’t want to cooperate or have to adhere to any agreements with you”. So I was simply letting him know that was my understanding of his statements.
Possibly. My read is that you had an escalating conversation, he was clearly using emotional reasoning, and probably does not feel as strongly as you are thinking he does. Either way, leave him to sort it out.
None of that is meant to defend him. I don't know the details of the agreement or how it was violated. I've had my own conflict over agreements a lot lately. It is aggravating, I know.
This may or may not resonate with you, but lately I have been thinking my goal of co-parenting amicably is just as much of a fantasy as R was 6 months ago. Co-parenting uses all the same DB techniques. Let go of the rope (in this case, the hope of two parents providing a perfect parenting arrangement). Control what YOU can control, let the rest flow by. Of course I will be amicable, but I can't FORCE it... I can only handle things respectfully and in a business-like fashion on my side.
Originally Posted by HopeCA
I’m having a new combination of emotions and it’s throwing me. I’m feeling simultaneously strong/wanting to stand up for myself and say “enough”, combined with feeling sadder, and more heartbroken than I have in awhile. It’s not just that I wanted reconciliation, it’s that I really believed we had a chance, and I don’t feel that way anymore. That leads to feelings of desperation for me, and it’s a lot of work for me to sort out which impulses stem from my desperation so that I can stop myself from taking those actions.
You have made a ton of progress. Celebrate the small victories.
Are you feeling desperate, or are you going through a natural grieving process?
Both. I am grieving, again. And I feel desperate. I can hear my brain thinking of what I can do, feeling the urge to pursue, etc.
I also feel a strong urge, as I’ve mentioned, to kind of do a closing action. I think it feels important to me that he realizes that it isn’t me that’s holding him back, or keeping this divorce from progressing/making him feel pressure or guilt.
Both. I am grieving, again. And I feel desperate. I can hear my brain thinking of what I can do, feeling the urge to pursue, etc.
I also feel a strong urge, as I’ve mentioned, to kind of do a closing action. I think it feels important to me that he realizes that it isn’t me that’s holding him back, or keeping this divorce from progressing/making him feel pressure or guilt.
Leave him to his feelings. Nothing you do or say right now is likely to change his feelings. His guilt is his alone.
Check that you are not falling for the "illusion of action". This is another of those self-protecting DB principles. That doesn't mean all action is a bad idea. But I think it is wise to think about what is spurring you to action, and whether that action is likely to yield the results you are looking for.
Yes, I definitely hear what you’re saying, and that’s why I decided to sit with my feelings for a bit. I think the action is considering taking is kind of like what is recommenced at the very beginning, directly after BD, basically saying “oh you’re in a rush to be done with this? Ok let me help you”.
I say this because after so much confusing behavior/mixed messages/admitted confusion and conflict from H, at this time he is expressing that he feels pressure and guilt related to me (although even he admits it’s by zero fault or action of mine). Directly post BD it’s advised to demonstrate that response, to remove pressure or the illusion of it, and to let the leaving spouse know you don’t intend to try to stop them. The way he’s talking, I get the sense that he feels that I’m somehow standing in his way, so I’m feeling like that’s what’s needed here, both for my own sake and for the sake of this situation or what’s left of it.
H will be here tomorrow evening to drop off D4. I’m thinking of giving him the last of his belongings (it’s only a few smallish things), and any remaining financial disclosure paper work. Part of me wants to include a note, but I know that isn’t advised.
I think giving him his belongings and financial disclosure paper work is fine. Business-like and proper. You can even give him a smile and be nice and relaxed about it. Look at Hope, just going about her day.
But...
No notes!!! Please!
Originally Posted by HopeCA
I say this because after so much confusing behavior/mixed messages/admitted confusion and conflict from H, at this time he is expressing that he feels pressure and guilt related to me (although even he admits it’s by zero fault or action of mine). Directly post BD it’s advised to demonstrate that response, to remove pressure or the illusion of it, and to let the leaving spouse know you don’t intend to try to stop them. The way he’s talking, I get the sense that he feels that I’m somehow standing in his way, so I’m feeling like that’s what’s needed here, both for my own sake and for the sake of this situation or what’s left of it.
Well it sounds like he has a lot of his own feelings to sort through.
Focus on you.
By giving him his belongings and the paper work, you are demonstrating that you are not standing in his way.
If he expresses his feelings you can validate (or even just practice reflective listening). Leave your feelings out of it. Your feelings are an inconvenience to him, they are pressure, they will be misinterpreted and misconstrued and added to the mountain of evidence supporting whatever his latest narrative is.
I was notified today that our April progress court date was continued until June for b/c of quarantine lock down. Usually I would be happy about this as it would just buy more time. Right now it almost feels like that bad thing that will work against me by making H feel more trapped or held back somehow. Of course, regardless of how he feels about that, there’s nothing I can do about that aspect of things or his feelings about it.
I was notified today that our April progress court date was continued until June for b/c of quarantine lock down. Usually I would be happy about this as it would just buy more time. Right now it almost feels like that bad thing that will work against me by making H feel more trapped or held back somehow. Of course, regardless of how he feels about that, there’s nothing I can do about that aspect of things or his feelings about it.
This - this is good. I need to get there too. Accepting that his feelings are out of your control.
AND, frankly this out of your control too. Let him be mad at COVID 19.
And, you are also right... more time... take the gift and keep working on yourself.
