Thank you for these affirmations, peacetoday--I think you posted while I was writing my post this morning, so I just saw your words. I feel like I am doing pretty bad, not able to maintain indifference right now, but it is an extremely hard time, as you say. So it helps me to remember that and not to be hard on myself on top of everything else. I will just try my best to keep surviving this new period, every day starting over if I have to.
I thought of one way to practice compassion--I'll begin asking H if he needs anything from the store when I go, because we're all going so rarely now anyway, and it's hard to find things. In times like these, that seems like a basic kindness.
DnJ, you are right that my rational thinking ability is near nil at this moment. Please bear with me.
Of course.
Originally Posted by cardinal
When I don't sleep enough, I know everything looks worse than it is.
Been there. Not a fun time.
I do empathize with your efforts to find understanding in all this. Yes, it is difficult to remember and accept that H slowly and silently slipped into confusion. To us our spouse’s change was very sudden; it looks like they just flipped a switch.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I still want to understand how he could stop being friends with me, why it's better to spend hours playing games on the phone with a bunch of drinking buddies than talk to me.
Because the MLCer is reliving their time from that long ago trauma. The time they were emotional stunted. H is an emotionally immature teenage kid in a full grown man’s body. It is more fun to spend time with buddies than a wife.
Buddies not friends. There is a big difference in how he is seeing and using those people.
Also, do not take it personally - him not wanting a wife. This is about him, not you. He is a teenager. Remember when you were 12 or 15 or so. We didn’t want to be married then. We didn’t even think about it. Teens are growing up, doing teenager stuff. The last thing on their mind is getting married and having a family. The times H is present, realizes his behaviour, and where and when he is - imagine the confusion of realizing you are married when you are 15. They really need to run from their torment.
You can also add to all that a lack of empathy. MLCers empathy chips are broken. They cannot empathize about anyone else. Their feelings are out of control and they cannot handle anyone else’s. No pressure or they will bolt. At times they do feel, and the shame, guilt, grief eats at them. And yet they are too emotionally traumatized to see the way out. It takes time, and a lot of it.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I am having a very hard time finding any of the compassion I've worked on building for him.
Perhaps a different view would help.
Quote
I am having a very hard time finding any of the compassion I've worked on building for about him.
Your compassion is for you. It is about him.
The compassion you’ve found is for you. It heals you. It helps you grow. In that view, compassion, and yes eventually forgiveness, is not dependent upon H’s behaviour or remorse. You feel and believe these because you want to live that way.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I struggle with this particular fear--of not being able to afford housing or food--because it may not be something I need to devote my time to worrying about at this moment, since there is nothing I can do about the pandemic, but it is a fear that is not irrational. I don't actually believe H would split things up suddenly or leave me with nothing. None of his behavior has indicated that. But it's the fact that I am not self-sufficient right now that I am not happy with. (The internal part.) I don't like the thought of relying on H or H feeling like I am relying on him financially. But it is just the truth of the situation right now that I am. Many people are struggling financially right now. It just is.
It’s ok.
Please remember I’m not arguing. Rationalizing against one’s own emotions is difficult. We actually fight against it.
Originally Posted by cardinal
...but it is a fear that is not irrational.
All fear is irrational.
That’s not bad, or weak, or anything else we perceive as negative. Irrational is just - not rational, not based upon reason or logic. It is based upon feeling, emotions, and beliefs.
There are many good and great things that are irrational. Love, joy, happiness, desire, admiration, empathy, compassion, forgiveness, faith, and so on.
Fear is irrational, it paralyses us. Short circuits our reasoning. Narrows our focus and blinds us to other possibilities.
Follow you fear, find the root, and stop feeding it. Let it to wither.
It is difficult - letting go of fear. Without it, all that stuff becomes concerns. Things to deal with, when and if they come up.
Originally Posted by cardinal
If my boundary is that H respects a certain quiet time in the house, does this include phone calls? Or is it on me to just stop letting the phone calls bother me?
Are the phone calls bothering you because of the noise volume, the hours they occur, the frequency, the duration?
If H is speaking reasonably quietly, in his room, let him be. Ignore him.
If his talking is too loud and you cannot sleep than you need to discuss it and see if he is agreeable to an amicable resolution. Perhaps he can text late at night instead.
Something else to consider is some MLCers can be rather flighty. Phone calls may wind down as something else takes their place.
Music, TV, and such, H can use ear pods and entertain himself to the cows come home.
If he refuses to use ear phones, you are right you can only control your self.
You want a boundary and enforcement without saying a word. When H is playing his music, not using his ear phones, late at night - go straight into his room. Sit down on a chair beside him. Look at everything he is doing. Start poking into stuff. He will probably freak out a bit and ask what the ___ are you are doing? Tell him you can’t sleep with him up making noise all night so you might as well sit in here and watch him. Pretty sure he’ll use his ear phones.
You can’t force him. You can make him uncomfortable, to have consequences to his actions, and he will want to change his behaviour.
I mentioned dog training so I’ll pass on something from four nights ago. My two dogs live in an outside pen. It is very large 80 by 120 feet. Has a huge tree in the middle. It is surrounded on two sides by bushes and trees. As such there are animals that scurry about at night.
For a while the dogs, one particularly, have been barking at night, at the noises in the trees. And probably the moon. I’ve banged on the window, opened the door and yelled at them, it works for like 5 minutes. Then back to barking.
They need something more immediate and consequential for a behaviour change. Something like a remote shock collar would work, but I don’t have one, and I don’t want to use one. Punishing isn’t needed. Correction is.
Anyhow, four nights ago barking started up at 3:00 am. Now, I get it, they’re dogs, they bark. I can live with a few minutes of barking and then they can go back to sleep, and so can I. However, no they barked and barked. Well the one dog more than the other.
So, I got up, left the lights off so not to interrupt the dogs, donned my bathrobe, went downstairs, slide on my boots, and went around the house to the pen. Me walking up to the pen in the dark lead to a cacophony of barking until they realize it was me.
I opened the pen and had the more vocal of the two come out and then closed the pen. I walked back to the house, the dog running about and scampering up onto the deck ahead of me, to the usual place they sit waiting for petting when they get out. I walked right passed her and went into the house, closing the door behind me.
I went to bed. Not with all that garb on. lol.
Half an hour later I got up. Redressed and went outside. Dog was at the door. Went around to the pen and let the dog back into her home. Haven’t had that barking since.
The dogs live in their pen. They don’t want to be outside of it, unless it is for walks and playtime and such. To be left just outside the fence was uncomfortable to her and consequential.
I too had to realize a fear in all this. I did fear what if the dog ran away. What if she got run over. What if.. what if... My plan was only for 30 minutes, and I know my dogs. Fear abated. Training accomplished. This boundary will be repeated if and when necessary.
Have a great day.
Could always get a shock collar for H....just kidding.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
cardinal, I totally understand your fear. I'm been a sahm most of our M. I just recently started picking up some work, but my income is measly and def will not be able to sustain me. But I also know that this fear really has trapped me for a long time without me realizing it. The financial security being with H was a huge reason why I accepted the status quo of our failing M.
I recently listened to a podcast of The Daily by NYtimes. Here's the transcript of the part that really touched me:
Michael Barbaro: I wonder what you want to say to somebody who has just lost their job, because there are now a lot of them, who may not be able to pay their rent, who may not be able to pay their mortgage, who may lose their housing, and who are really scared because of these economic consequences. What do you want them to hear you say?
Andrew Cuomo: I would say first, I hope no one in your family, or no one you know, dies because of this. Because that’s what we’re trying to accomplish. I hope no one in your family dies. Second, we all understand the economic consequences. It’s not just you, it is everyone. And by the way, take solace in that fact. Because maybe if it was just you, you could be forgotten and left on the side of the road. It’s not just you. It’s everyone, and it’s everywhere. The Italians have an old saying that the rich man is the man who has health, right? If you have your health, you can figure anything else out. And it’s true. We’ll figure out the economy. I went through 9/11. Oh, downtown Manhattan is devastated, we have to rebuild, how do we do this? We’re alive, first of all. And if we are alive, we’ll figure out the rest. We’ll figure out the money. It’s making sure we live through this.
Maybe it's all political mumbo jumbo, but I'd like to believe it's true. We are alive. and whatever happens, we will figure it out.
Wooba, thanks so much for sharing that. It does help me. I'd like to believe it's true, too. And I am thankful that H still has a job and is keeping us fed and housed, that I am healthy, that my family is still healthy. That's a heck of a lot to be grateful for.
It's evening here--H is in the other room watching a movie "with" his buddies (& wearing headphones); they're all online from their homes. He made a conference call with all of them again this morning, complete with mimosa in hand, and they played games for a while. My heart doesn't race as fast when I hear him on the phone, and I don't get as tense. I'm getting used to it, and of course it helps that I realize now it's just a friend thing, no AP there by the sound of it. So they bother me, really, because I'm jealous, and I want to be one of those people he calls, and I miss him. Time will help with indifference.
Last night raised my spirits, because H finally brought groceries into the house and cooked himself a nice meal. It's been ages since he's done that, and I was glad he was taking care of himself in that way. He seemed like he was actually enjoying cooking, rather than trying to get out of the kitchen as fast as possible. I was in the kitchen making cookies and we joked a bit. I asked what he was making. He offered me a bowl, and I said, thanks--maybe I will. I went back to my room to wait for the cookie timer, and a few minutes later he called in to let me know the meal was done if I wanted any. I was pleasantly surprised by the offer and did take some even though I'd planned to eat some leftovers. I wanted to reinforce good behavior, plus it smelled really good! He ate at the table/his new workspace with a movie playing, and I went back to my room. He called in to me a few times to tell me about the recipe, and when I went back in I thanked him for sharing and told him how much I'd enjoyed it. He said, sure, but I'm stealing some of your cookies!
It was a nice exchange, because we both enjoyed something the other had made. It felt like we were both kind humans living together again. He also let me know he'd ordered vanilla beans to make us more vanilla since we were out, which is something that takes weeks. A little of the pressure I'd been feeling dissolved: like, okay, he's probably not secretly resenting me for living here, he's not going to suddenly want to kick me out or something. Those are irrational fears. I think I'm still scarred by the months living with angry H, and with this shelter at home shift, and after the ear plugs comment, I was worrying he'd go back that direction.
But he has been respectful so far. I was also delighted to find that he fell asleep at 9 last night playing a video game, so I actually went to bed later than he did. He napped today too. Those signs that he is human do help with my anger.
He has gone out a few times, and I feel a little on edge that he's around people that could put my health at risk, but then he mentioned wearing a mask at a store once, and I heard him say to someone he was at the park with (a group, a person?), but sitting very far away. So I think I can rationalize that fear away too.
DnJ, thank you so much for spending time walking me and so many others through our fears and worries. You help more than you know.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Please remember I’m not arguing. Rationalizing against one’s own emotions is difficult. We actually fight against it.
Yes, and sometimes I don't even realize I'm fighting against it, and so I always appreciate you breaking things down and pointing this out! Your reminder to not taking his behavior personally helped. Maybe it's better that I am able to recognize some parts of him even in the midst of the lifestyle changes he's made--sometimes that's hard, because I can still see H in alien H, and it makes him seem so close, yet so far, but if he was unrecognizable, maybe that would mean he was that much more lost.
I like the dog parable, DnJ. That last line was especially wonderful, as it surprised me and made me start my day with a laugh.
The sea is calm right now, and I'm resting with the sun on my face. It'll probably get choppy again soon, and I'll be riding waves. I can do that (even if it means more venting here!).
A long day. H talks to so many friends, the group calls plus others from work. He is surrounded by friends even during this stay at home directive. He shared our favorite cookbook with one of them tonight, which got to me. He does say “our” sometimes when talking to his friends, meaning what belongs to me and him, which I find weird. There is no “our” right now, really, is there? He seems so happy, carefree, except for the venting he does about work (to me, a little; to them, a lot). He laughs a lot. I am stuck thinking he is just really happy and has the great life he wanted. It really doesn’t seem like I added much to it, if he is content now. I know I should be happy if he is happy. But I’m feeling sad and invisible instead. Riding another wave of emotion.
I can't imagine what you're going through right now. Is there anyway you can block out his "sounds"?? play music in your space to drown out his sounds so you don't go crazy listening to what he's saying to his friends? I find myself eavesdropping whenever my H takes a call at home. I don't want even want to care but I can't help it.
His happiness has nothing to do with you. You didn't cause his unhappiness, nor did the absence of you contribute to his happiness. He is in his own world, don't let HIM determine YOUR happiness.
He came and went as he chose, had no concern for his young children I like you was heartbroken..He had his freedom, new fantasy life ect..and he believed it was the right choice He thought everything would work out
fast forward to a few years ago He left a VM saying he messed up He was at that time addicted to prescriptions and alcohol He M ow, and had heard from several sources he was completely miserable
MY point
If it is true MLC...they cant get from here to happy from leaving a M and detroying a family
Very rarely have I seen that if ever
Im not wishing your H misery...but chances are the replay(happy mode) will be short lived
Stay on your path...You will find happiness from doing this work a letting go and growth and change
He will find more of the same
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I am so sorry you are stuck in the same space and get to hear all that. I used to try and "listen in" on my H. We still live in the same house with our kids. We are coridal now, which is nice. But my H told me a few days ago that he thought I was listening in on his conversations or people were breaking is confidence and telling me things. I admitted I was trying to listen in on his conversations because he never talks to me about anything and our trust has been nil since he had the affair.
The reality is, my H is dealing with a mild case of MLC. It's not as bad as many here are stating they are facing, but he still wants his space. Wants to run away. Or at least have a couple days to himself to "think things out" but with us all being stuck at home, he can't do that.
I am trying so very hard not to care myself. I need to focus on me, my kids, and getting a new job. I need to work on the parts of me I didn't like very much any more. I also needed to start connecting more with others. I have been doing that. Trying not to make him or my kids the only thing in my life. It hasn't been easy to force myself to stop listening in or checking his various social media/email. I am not doing that any more. I can't afford to.
I find that when I do, my mind gets crazy. My heart feels heavy and I can actually feel it start to harden. So I try very much to let my heart lead the way. I am reading a lot about forgiveness. I am studying detachment and self differentiation. I think I became too attached to our X+X title. It was like Bennifer or Bradjolina. We have to own who we are on our own first.
I know it is so very hard. Maybe buying a great headphone set and watching videos or listening to music so you aren't hearing it all day long? Or maybe singing to yourself? I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Please take care and find a way to detach. It's the only way through this. For any of us.
W (me): 50 H: 46 M: 21 T: 25 S:17 D:15 BD 11/2019
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You can not withstand the storm" And the warrior whispers back, "I am the storm." ~Unknown
Hi, wooba. Hi, peace. Hi, believe. Thank you so much for being here. Believe6, you sound strong and reflective. I haven’t been able to summon my usual ability to sort out my thoughts or be positive. I’m still in the middle of a feeling storm, so I haven’t yet posted on your thread. I feel too lost at the moment myself to be of much help, but I am reading along.
Wooba, I don’t want to care but can’t help it either sometimes.
Originally Posted by peacetoday
they cant get from here to happy from leaving a M
Originally Posted by wooba
His happiness has nothing to do with you. You didn't cause his unhappiness, nor did the absence of you contribute to his happiness.
I needed to be reminded of that. But why does it appear so much the opposite?
For some reason I wasn’t even thinking about replay, but that makes sense. Otherwise it appears as if the biggest difference in his life is that I am pretty much out of it—from my limited vantage point, it appears he hasn’t changed anything fundamental or internal that might bring him happiness, it’s just the new friends, the different lifestyle. But I’m not completely out of his life, am I? Something is stopping him from taking another step to make that happen. Would it mess too much with his fantasy bubble? My head hurts when I try to imagine the way he must split his life into two—me at home in one compartment, the new life he’s living in another (our old life in some very far away compartment). I don’t think he’ll have a chance to actually miss me while I’m still here in the background of his days. Sometimes I feel like the clock—or his clock--doesn’t start until that happens, until I’m not in the background.
I know I am on my own clock and shouldn’t worry about his since I have no control over it. But my mind more often wanders to him and everything I miss now that he’s here. For the first time in a while, I ached to share a meal with him again tonight—just to sit across from him at the table and enjoy good food together. Since he’s been on the phone so often, I think about the way he would say “my wife” when he was talking to someone, about the love I used to hear in those words. I’m thinking about this time last year, and how I had no idea BD was approaching in a few months. It’s mind-boggling how much has changed since then—I can hardly conceive of it. It still feels unreal a lot of the time. More unreal with the pandemic, like I slipped into a parallel life somewhere along the way.
I’ve been angry and hurting and wanting to protect myself and avoid him, so maybe I’ve been a little quieter, a little less jokey than the first couple of days. This morning I chose to ask how his mom was coping with the virus in another state. Just because he’s not asking about my parents doesn’t mean I can’t ask about his. I can be angry that he’s not and and say nothing myself, or I can share my compassion and concern, which I do feel, for my MIL and ask after her. I would ask after any roommate’s family. He did ask after mine, but not in a way that felt genuine. Then again, he doesn’t show that he’s worried or afraid for his family or that he has any deeper feelings about the pandemic. I asked after his work, which I know has been stressful for him, as it always was. He talked a bit about it, and I could hear the anger and frustration in his voice even as he was trying to minimize how much it was actually affecting him.
I’m thankful today was quiet up until now. I swing from crying in my room and feeling like I’m falling apart, how can I get through the next hour, I’m out of strength, to calm. Probably because I’m exhausted. Oh no--the phone call is starting and he’s been drinking, so I think it will be time for headphones on my part. He’s got a couple of edibles now too and he’s definitely louder, happy and loopy, so much so that the headphones will only muffle. I guess it’s easier to be happy (temporarily) when you’ve got some help!
Update: He's pretty gone. Calling one person after another to talk loudly. He was in the kitchen and I asked him to go to the other room for a minute because I needed to give the cat medicine, and he was too freaked out to go in. A couple minutes later he said to the person on the phone, "It's not ideal, but what are you gonna do?" And then, "Yeah, I hate it." I'm afraid he was talking about sharing the house with me. It could have been work, because he's also been talking about working from home. He's not acting like he hates the situation, but he could very well just be hiding his feelings from me. I went back by his room after he got off the phone and said the kitchen was free again, and I hoped he wasn't mad that I asked him to leave in the middle of his call. He said, It's fine.
I know I shouldn't have said anything to him about asking him to leave the room--I was being polite. Now he's playing his music loud, which he hasn't done in days. He's definitely operating from a messed up place... but if he hates being here with me so much, IF that's what he was saying... I don't know.
If he keeps playing his music, it makes me thinks he's challenging me. But also he's probably not thinking that clearly.
