This is a marathon. I've never been a runner--well, once in high school I tried to take it up, running loops around the cemetery down the street. Kindly, you're around seven months now, I'm at around nine. I think I've said this before, but the time has flown by for me. I'm not sure how it feels for you.
Hi Cardinal! I literally just wrote on my page about how I can’t believe 7/8 months have flown by! It’s unreal. (And crazy how on pace we are with each other and thought processes). I couldn’t agree more with what PLC said ...it’s getting off the rollercoaster and not allowing ourself to ride the crazy up and down ride with our spouse...instead keeping ourself a little more even keel. This community has been so helpful in allowing us to instead choose to get on the rollercoaster with people that are on the same ride as we are. People we can relate to, people that can make us feel less “crazy” with what we are experiencing...reminding us to detach, that we can’t fix H, and to GAL. Im so glad your H seems to have slowed down and stabilized...maybe it’s the opposite of what your thinking and he could be self reflecting. Maybe IC is helping??? The sad part is we have no control and won’t know until we know. In my sitch H doesn’t speak at all, is gone for longer periods of time, obsessively working, and wouldn’t dare get any help of any kind because he doesn’t think there is anything at all wrong. I agree it’s soooo difficult when they appear so steady and together. Keep the baking and gardening going Cardinal ...you are doing very well.
PLC and Kindly, how terrible that our BD dates are all staggered among us, but I'm glad we are here for each other. You both make such great points about the rollercoaster: it's always a good goal to let H ride his own rollercoaster, but when you find your stomach dropping and realize you must've gotten back on, it's wonderful to know there are others here to support you. Also we're sometimes on our own rollercoasters, independent of our WAS, with our own internal ups and downs. I feels important to me to know we can ride though periods of feeling hopeless without losing hope.
I wanted to journal about my own progress today, but then of course reading other threads has brought up some other thoughts, so here goes another long post somehow combining them all. All thoughts, reflections, questions welcome.
1. Thinking about being friends/friendly, friendship as the foundation of the relationship (May's post to Wayfarer reminded me this is something that's been on my mind). One night this week I got home and H was listening to new records in his room. I said hello, continued to kitchen to start my dinner. Felt no frustration from music. Felt no frustration upon discovering H had apparently used an ingredient I thought we'd had. I was calm, positive. One thing I've been working on for me is keeping up my PMA (related to H and just in general, because in the past things could easily get to me), and I was happy to realize I've made progress there.
H came into the kitchen a bit later, excited, to show me a record he'd bought. I acknowledged how cool it was (it was). I told him someone had recently shared with me there were lots of records to be found at X. He left and came in again to bring me a piece of some new candy he'd found. I mentioned I'd filled the living room candy jar with some stuff I'd found after he shared something with me the other week, that I'd eaten most of it already. I see that he's been eating it now. Dang it, candy is our love language. Ha. But it really is. Our love for music (though we'd both stopped listening to it in the house much, as our phones became the only way to really listen) and candy is just one of the things we shared as friends.
I read a lot on here, it seems, about not being in the friend zone, or making it clear that you will not be friends after D, but then the other day I was reading the wisdom from the vets thread, and I was surprised that so much of it was related to making an effort to stay friends no matter what, and build from there. I know it varies from sitch to sitch, but the vibe in those archived posts felt so much rosier. What do you think?
Wayfarer mentioned she thinks of her H as her person. That resonated with me. H isn't sharing a lot with me, but it's like he can't help himself from sharing some things we would normally be doing together or talking about together—mentioning a TV show, a book, candy, these new records. I see our strong friendship as a positive; I also know it probably helped me be complacent with the SSM for too long.
2. Self-improvement/progress: Sometimes I think—how have I changed for the better since all of this? And I have trouble coming up with concrete examples, because it's hard for me to step outside the sitch and myself and see things from a distance. And because it seems like I haven't had that many interactions with H in which I can put my changes into practice. So many are internal. What would he see that is different? (But... aren't I putting these into practice every day? If I hadn't been doing this work, I would probably be screaming at him, arguing with him, begging him to reconsider, completely trashed by my emotions and his.) What changes do I see? I really wanted to challenge myself to recognize some of my hard work.
• Focused on trying to change myself rather than H, exponentially expanded self-awareness, have gotten better at knowing what I can and can't control. H makes his own choices and leads his own life, and I don't interfere. (I don't even clean out the fridge when he leaves something in there forever—I'm letting go of my need to have things done on my timeline and in my way!) • More compassion, more empathy, more reflection, more patience, more listening rather than speaking. My first instinct is no longer to react defensively or to shift blame. In the few R talks we've had since BD, I remained calm and thoughtful. I focused on letting H talk, and on understanding more about what he was feeling. I asked questions and I validated. And I've made leaps and bounds in understanding H's perspective of the M, as much as I can without talking through it with him. Focused on his perspective, his feelings as no less valid than mine in writing apology letter—letter might not have been the best timing, but I am proud of how much I was able to step out of my perspective (defensiveness, blaming!) and step into his. Better at taking responsibility but not all responsibility. • So much patience (This deserves its own entry!) • Have let go of a lot of resentment, am generally so much better at assuming love and understanding that love is a choice; I have a much deeper understanding of marriage and relationships and how I can be a better partner • Gradually shifting my general attitude from negative to positive
I'd love to see others' lists! I still feel like I could be more concrete in mine. I'd like to be able to clearly see how I've put these changes into action. But I guess this desire comes partly from wanting so much to put these changes into action in a new R with H and see how much better it could be.
I've been reading 5LL this week, and I'm realizing how much more it's sinking in than it would have if I would have read it right before or right after BD. You guys, I had just never read anything about relationships before! I didn't realize how many assumptions both H and I had about M. I've read several books now, and I understand why people think a relationship isn't fixable when it is. It's like MWD saying, Start with a beginner's mind. So many R challenges are solvable if even one partner is willing to make positive changes. I hope my H's IC is somehow transferring that idea into H, even if he thinks it's for future Rs. I hope he recognizes, someday, how great the foundation of our friendship is, and how worth working on our M is. Because, like a lot of us here, I am becoming AWOAFWL! I am AWOAFWL!
I'm glad you seem like you're doing well. I like the story of the exchange re candy and records. What is it with these Hs and a record player? My H has dumped a TON of cash on records. At first I was annoyed and then I realized it was something he loved and why was it really bothering me? Not a lot of $ in the grand scheme.
The friendship part resonates and I think I will read the archived threads. I generally feel like what I read in MWD's books is rosier than a lot of what gets traction here, which partially could be because we're all in pretty dire situations once we get here and the LRT is appropriate. But I've also been reading some blogs online about affair healing from the involved partner's perspective, and while this is all infidelity related and so I don't know if it translates to non-infidelity situations, the LBS's willingness to reestablish connection, the friendship, all those things are important to the recovery. Also, I think a lot of people on these boards are dealing with WSs with whom the friendship is gone and the WS is acting in all ways like a jerk. I do think there is a real difference in our sitchs than those where the WS is actively demonizing the LBS, the home situation is untenable, everyone feels like garbage all the time, etc.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I see our strong friendship as a positive; I also know it probably helped me be complacent with the SSM for too long.
Wow, this is probably true for me as well. I never really contemplated the possibility that we weren't going to be there for each other forever. Literally never crossed my mind until this all started happening. And truthfully it still seems super far-fetched to me to imagine my life without him as my person or his without me even with everything that has happened. I hadn't thought of how the SSM was related to this. For whatever reason I was OK with just being great friends and partners and roommates. Now that isn't good enough anymore.
Originally Posted by cardinal
It's like MWD saying, Start with a beginner's mind. So many R challenges are solvable if even one partner is willing to make positive changes.
I like this too.
Have you read David Brooks' book The Second Mountain? It might be helpful... both to help understand maybe what got your H into the place he is, and for you to get through the valley and into what is next for you. I thought it was really good. It is probably a year since I read it so I can't remember a ton of specifics (read it when I thought my H was having an MLC rather than an A, and now all the infidelity books are crowding that out) but you might like it.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Because, like a lot of us here, I am becoming AWOAFWL! I am AWOAFWL!
You are!!
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I enjoyed reading about your pondering and thoughts. I do see your PMA and self focus. The kitchen/record/ingredient went very well.
Friends/friendship/foundation. That is interesting isn’t it?
Yes, a friendship would be required for a rekindling or building a new relationship or marriage. However, I think we need to go through the stage of less friends and more just friendly.
You see my friends don’t treat me like XW did / does. I do love her. And don’t like her.
Another idea for busting a divorce is not being the WAS’s friend. We are the prize. If they want to leave, they don’t have us just sitting there all friends and waiting. As I said, my friends treat me better than that.
Not friends doesn’t mean enemy; that’s where indifference fits into this.
And the love; that’s where compassion fits.
Compassionate indifference.
If our spouse turns back around, does their inner work, find themselves, etc., we unwind our indifference. They are a different person while lost within their emotional crisis, a person who is not our friend. Friendship to a MLCer means much different than what it means to you. Crisis people’s emotions are stunted and immature, and so are their friendships and relationships. When and if they exit their crisis, they return to more of themselves, and to more of the person whom we were friends with.
Indifference, compassion, focus on you, letting go, forgiveness, etc. - are all so important. Firstly to us. And secondly to any possible future relationship. If we focused and fretted over our spouse’s behaviour for all that time, it would eat us alive. Preventing our healing and growth, and destroying any chance of reconciliation.
It is important to separate the person from the behaviour. See each as, and for what they are. They are hurt people, trapped in a fog of despair and confusion, and are not behaving like a friend. Treat the person kindly and with compassion, and enforce necessary boundaries for unacceptable behaviour.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I see our strong friendship as a positive; I also know it probably helped me be complacent with the SSM for too long.
Your strong friendship will make a good foundation. It also let you overlook many things. Your friendship with H needs to grow - at a later time, for he is not ready right now.
Cardinal, that is pretty much the same way I see my XW. Her behaviour is, and was, obviously unfriendly in nature. I am curious how you see my viewpoint.
Self improvement/progress. Oh yes, you have made significant gains.
Your list is very good. I do understand what you mean about wanting it to be more concrete. To feel more concrete. To put those into action.
How to?
Make those permanent. Beliefs. Self reinforcing beliefs. A way of life.
Beliefs take time, they are slow to change.
You are making excellent progress. The concrete “feeling” you seek grows stronger and stronger as more and more days of living by your values accumulate.
As for items on your list, do not forget the ones you already possessed and strengthened. Loyalty, faithfulness, honesty, trustworthiness, and so on. The progress made here, the strength that these current traits gain is incredible, and once realized add much to that concrete feeling.
You are a woman only a fool would leave. You stand hopeful upon a strong foundation. Continue living forward.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Catching up on threads this morning. (And need to write an update myself!) I think I agree with DnJ about the friendship part. When H is waxing poetic about how unsure he is about us, about it all seems so unfixable and the mess he's made with the affair just makes it worse but that no matter what happens, he wants us to always be the best of friends... well that just sounds to me like him trying to soothe his own guilt. It is about making himself feel better. He even said to me that he cannot not bear it if we aren't friends. In fact lately as I listen more and say less what I hear is ALL about HIM. And he is a jumbled mess at the moment. Everything he says and does at the moment seems to be geared towards minimizing his discomfort. Maybe there will be some moment in the future when he actually considers the pain his choices have caused for his wife and family but that is not where he is now. Friendly not friends. I don't want to soothe his guilt. But more than that I think it is a boundary that helps protect my heart right now. It is a struggle though because there is a part of me that thinks being a "good friend" will soften him. Then I remind myself that I was a good friend and extremely supportive all those months when he was "lost" and "trying to find himself again" and generally behaving like an irresponsible teenager. And in my situation, he was slurping that magic kool-aid and lying with every breath and living a double life.
May's observation about holding tightly to the narrative that the problems in the R are insurmountable, unfixable as a way to reconcile the cheating... that makes sense too.
Your self improvement progress is fantastic! You go girl!
The "While Your Spouse Decides" was probably the first blog on here that I read. And I read it over and over. My H didn't get my friendship when he really, really didn't deserve it. When he was very busy demonizing me and treating our home like his crash pad. I tried to go dark and he got worse. Treating him as a friendly neighbor shifted things immediately. As time went on and he softened and started to become himself again it was hard not to be friends again. Even when he was prepared to leave me for OW he still couldn't help but share things with me. He had her to talk to all day every day should he so choose but he would follow me around while I was actively avoiding him just so he could share with me. Because our friendship mattered. And I listened even if I wanted to choke him sometimes because our friendship mattered to me. If I must be completely honest he doesn't probably fully "deserve" my friendship now, but we were friends before we dated, before we were lovers, co-parents, husband and wife. We were friends for years first. And my H was and is one of my best friends. When it was obvious that the friendship he wanted so badly between us wasn't just to fill his needs I softened. I'm not holding parts of myself hostage until he reaches a socially acceptable point at which people on this board and IRL feel like he deserves it. My H and I are no where near reconciliation. But the friendship we have has been flourishing since OW left the picture. He's still unsure of what he wants but I'm patient. And I know that he wants and needs my friendship. So he can have it. Like David says in the blog, "Perhaps all that will survive is friendship, but by preserving a friendship, you always leave the door open to something more." Like every thing on here it's not one size fits all. It never will be. But Cardinal has a point. The attitude regarding interactions around the WAS/WS is a little different now than it used to be. There's so much hard lining on limited contact, limited kindness, limited friendship, limited physical contact, limited everything. Some times you just have to go against the grain and see what happens. That's what DR says try things see what sticks and fails. So for some of us it might be friendship.
Cardinal I love the bit about candy, and your self improvement is beyond impressive. (((hugs)))
Well, I feel like I have been gone from here forever, and it's been only a few days—all this extra light from daylight saving time really has made the days feel longer, I guess! The weekend was calm, as in I felt grounded emotionally, worked in the yard, read a book. I was reflecting on your posts and the distinctions between friendliness and friends.
Things with H were slightly strange in that he texted me several times, once to make a joke about something in the house when I wasn't there, and once to ask about groceries, which he never does, and then some follow-up jokey texts. So more virtual and in-person engagement... He was home all day dehydrating fruit on Sunday and brought me bites to try throughout the day, started tiny conversations, played records, asked about some brownies I made and later ate some. He also worked on a woodworking project outside, which he used to love and hasn't done for a very long time—he made a very nice display/rack for his growing record collection. (May, it seems to have doubled in a week! And it's mainly old favorites of his that he's started listening to again.)
I came home at one point to find him making his comfort food for dinner, and he had headphones on and was watching a show on his ipad as he chopped. He saw me and took his headphones off to show me something, then left them off and watched with the volume up as he cooked instead. This from a guy who used to never take his headphones off when I was in the house. With his music drifting through the house the last couple of weeks and, then, this tv show, it's like we're breathing the same air again, experiencing (a teeny tiny bit) of the same reality.
Originally Posted by may22
Also, I think a lot of people on these boards are dealing with WSs with whom the friendship is gone and the WS is acting in all ways like a jerk. I do think there is a real difference in our sitchs than those where the WS is actively demonizing the LBS, the home situation is untenable, everyone feels like garbage all the time, etc.
H was mostly a jerk for the first six months, so maybe this is why this is on my mind now. At first, post BD, it was all about me wanting to be consistent no matter his mood, me trying to be friendly all the time, and sometimes it was met with friendliness in return, usually not. Once I switched to not trying but simply being, not reaching out, but simply being available to respond--well, that seems to have made a difference these last few months.
Originally Posted by belleva
Everything he says and does at the moment seems to be geared towards minimizing his discomfort. Maybe there will be some moment in the future when he actually considers the pain his choices have caused for his wife and family but that is not where he is now. Friendly not friends. I don't want to soothe his guilt. But more than that I think it is a boundary that helps protect my heart right now.
You explained this so clearly, belleva. Your H reminds me a bit of the way May's H was (and other WASes here), of wanting to remain good friends, this fantasy idea of what D could look like. I can see how friendly not friends becomes all the more important. My H never talks about what he envisions or plans or wants, hasn't brought up D since November, so it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like to navigate this kind of muddled thinking in a spouse. It sounds, horrible, of course! But it's very good that you know your boundaries and are living them.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Friends/friendship/foundation. That is interesting isn’t it?
Yes, a friendship would be required for a rekindling or building a new relationship or marriage. However, I think we need to go through the stage of less friends and more just friendly.
Yes--H and I are not friends now, as much as I would like that. I see on his part lately more friendliness, and on my part friendliness in return (e.g. engaging when engaged). I see compassionate indifference as the foundation for friendship (if and when, as May wrote, the LBS has a willingness to reestablish that connection, as desired by the WAS). Eventual friendship as the foundation for reconnection and M 2.0.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Your strong friendship will make a good foundation. It also let you overlook many things. Your friendship with H needs to grow - at a later time, for he is not ready right now.
Also important--recognizing this need for growth, and recognizing it cannot happen now. But recognizing first the need for growth feels like an important step. Trusting that the foundation will remain even if I'm not actively making repairs right now.
I felt simple gratitude for the weekend friendliness as it was unfolding, still a tiny bit curious about the why, but that was in the background and didn't consume my thoughts; by the end of the day, I realized all of the positives I'd noted had made me feel hopeful, and then I realized that my hope has begun to evolve from short term w/ expectations (Maybe this means he won't file, is what I would have found myself hoping/fretting over pretty recently, but it wasn't that) to a more open-ended hope (I believe there is a future with us in it). I'm glad to see I've started to change the way I hope. I've managed to weed out some expectation. So much of my mental/internal changes seem to happen when I'm not focusing on making them happen. -->
Originally Posted by DnJ
Beliefs take time, they are slow to change.
Originally Posted by DnJ[/quote
The concrete “feeling” you seek grows stronger and stronger as more and more days of living by your values accumulate.
As for items on your list, do not forget the ones you already possessed and strengthened. Loyalty, faithfulness, honesty, trustworthiness, and so on. The progress made here, the strength that these current traits gain is incredible, and once realized add much to that concrete feeling.
Both points seem obvious, yet I didn't think of them! Thanks for reminding me how this works, DnJ. It's not all about how many changes we can make in ourselves; it's also about recognizing and strengthening our already-admirable qualities. Yes. I feel like a portion of my brain is still devoted to finding more potential 180s I might've overlooked—the same portion that repeats, Do more of what works! Do less of what doesn't! Be unpredictable! Maybe it is enough to keep working on the core changes I've already begun to make, to keep living and reinforcing those, day by day, so that they will continue to grow and strengthen.
I'm sorry I can't write short posts! It's a new week. I've got extra GAL on the calendar, including an art class I signed up for. Wishing you all health and longer, brighter days ahead.
I'm not holding parts of myself hostage until he reaches a socially acceptable point at which people on this board and IRL feel like he deserves it. My H and I are no where near reconciliation. But the friendship we have has been flourishing since OW left the picture. He's still unsure of what he wants but I'm patient.
This resonates, wayfinder. I feel that some people's situations lend themselves to really hard lines, either because of the way their S is acting or their own internal workings of how they deal with things. And that works for many people. But I think it is also DBing to take a different approach and OK to be friends, friendly, whatever, as long as you can handle it and aren't mistaking their friendship for a desire to reconcile.
Again, I always think it comes down to your own attitude. Are you being friends because you're licking up crumbs in the desperate hope he'll come back? I feel a lot like folks here (and probably IRL) feel like any friendly interaction automatically fits that mold. But I don't think so. I think if you are able to step back and understand what is going on, where you are, where he is, and be OK with what is happening in the moment, for his sake or yours or the eventual R, whatever that might look like... that is all OK and truly DBing as long as you're keeping the same basic rules about focusing on yourself and not pursuing.
Cardinal, I say all this because I feel this is you. In your posts you seem strong and wise. It seems like you have that big picture understanding of what is happening in your sitch, with your H, with your own reactions or non-reactions... it is really impressive. Nice job too on separating expectations from hope. That is so key and something I know I still need to work on. I know I've read here too about the difference between the friendly neighbor interaction and the friends/significant other interaction is that you have certain expectations of your friends, and you don't for the nice neighbor or check-out clerk. So it seems like you are really perfecting that.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Maybe it is enough to keep working on the core changes I've already begun to make, to keep living and reinforcing those, day by day, so that they will continue to grow and strengthen.
Yes, I think so. I think it is exhausting to focus so much of your energy on your H and what is working and what isn't... focusing on you and what serves you now that you've hit some level of stride I think is good and important. You need a break sometimes.
My H has been talking about making a record player table and storage rack. We'll see how that goes!
(((HUGS))) you are doing so well!!
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Wayfinder, when I posted before, I somehow missed your post! And I hadn't read the "While Your Spouse Decides" post from MWD yet, so I'm glad you shared it here. It did really resonate with me, as did what you posted, WF. I was friends with my H before we dated, then after I broke up with him and we had a period of not hanging out together while we were seeing other people, then we became friends again before we got back together and eventually married. I am a friendly neighbor now, and I do admire David's words and approach, because it does seem to align with my core values. How I would want to act in that same situation, which would involve me setting my ego aside, setting aside what anyone else might think, all of that. I don't know how I would handle it, though. One day at a time.
Originally Posted by may22
Again, I always think it comes down to your own attitude. Are you being friends because you're licking up crumbs in the desperate hope he'll come back? I feel a lot like folks here (and probably IRL) feel like any friendly interaction automatically fits that mold. But I don't think so. I think if you are able to step back and understand what is going on, where you are, where he is, and be OK with what is happening in the moment, for his sake or yours or the eventual R, whatever that might look like... that is all OK and truly DBing as long as you're keeping the same basic rules about focusing on yourself and not pursuing.
This makes a lot of sense to me, May. I think I was more on the lookout for any crumb (any semblance of a friendly interaction) in the first months after BD, and since then I think I have been able to, as you say, come to a place where I have a bigger-picture understanding. I don't feel wise at all, though! I think if I come across that way at all in my posts at times, it's because writing here forces me to take apart my feelings and try to figure them out, to try to move toward a bigger perspective.
That said I know I still have underlying expectations... whenever I read something here about some nice interaction with the WAS not meaning anything, I find myself wanting to push back on that in my own sitch, like, well, I no longer am desperate to think these friendly interactions with H mean no D, but I do think they are positive. I do think, because of the way we always started as friends in the past before R, it is positive if I am a friendly neighbor and H is increasingly engaged. Because of these interactions and his inaction, I do think I believe deep down he is not 100% sure of his path, and that has expectations wrapped up in it. I'm still making progress for me, I hope.
May, maybe our Hs can exchange record player storage designs! Haha.
