W came over tonight to collect her things. She said she was complacent when she moved back in and felt pressured but is willing to do everything required - phone etc, marriage counselling. She said spark will come back and that she’s 90% certain it’ll all work out. I told her I need space and time.
W came over tonight to collect her things. She said she was complacent when she moved back in and felt pressured but is willing to do everything required - phone etc, marriage counselling. She said spark will come back and that she’s 90% certain it’ll all work out. I told her I need space and time.
Did she start the R talk or did you?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
W has been messaging tonight asking to see me tomorrow. I've told her I'll most likely be out but she can come and grab her things. Says she really misses me but is confused when we're together. Told her I need space to figure things out.
GOOD! That's a perfect response.
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W just called me and said she thought she needed space but misses me and is worried that I’ve said I need space. She said she felt pressured when she came back. Probably something I messed up. She said she might look at buying a house/renting as she can’t continue living at her mum’s. Obv isn’t ready to work on M but said doesn’t want to be left out in the cold.
This is how the distancer/ pursuer dynamic usually plays out. You pursue, she distances. But when you pull back and create some distance, then she starts pursuing. It's important to understand that she's still not ready to recon. She's getting there but you need to make it clear you are not just throwing the door open for her. I think you are doing a good job of that so far, so keep it up.
As far as being left out in the cold, she's trying to manipulate you into allowing her back on HER terms. Don't fall for it. Just listen and validate when she says these things. "That sounds difficult for you, I understand you're having a tough time and I hope it all works out." "So I can move back in?" "No, a lot would have to happen before I would ever consider that." "Like what?" "I don't want to discuss that until we are both ready to consider reconciling, and right now I am not and I don't think you are either."
Out of curiosity, (purely hypothetically) if she *was* telling the truth would anything about my DB'ing be different? She says EA/PA before Christmas. Decided it was a bad idea and called it off, remained friends. Felt pretty pleased with herself that she ended it herself. Probably IMs OM a few times a week, doesn't see any harm in that and thinks he is unimportant and main problem is feels confused/can't get the spark back with H and M.
There are so many things I wanted to respond to while reading your threads, I don't know where to start. As the LBH, you have been very focused on her connection to OM. What I've seen happen in so many other cases, is the H is completely focused on just getting his W to end her A and move back home. Then after she moves back, he realizes he did not take time to heal. He begins to feel a lot of resentment for the things his W did, which makes it difficult when they are "piecing". For example, if you thought you had forgiven her for getting pregnant by another man, having an abortion and continuing on with OM..........it just might come back to fester in your heart. IDK........it's just an example.
Throughout both threads, I've seen your WW lie, betray, deceive, temp check, etc. There is no "formal" way to end an affair. It has to be killed in it's tracks. Every time she gives life to it, then it's not dead. It works just like a drug user. She has to go cold turkey b/c there is no tapering off, no last meeting, no going to OM's house, etc. The WW does not go from an affair with OM to just being "friends"........as if to suggest her H would be okay with them being friends. Her H should be insulted that she thinks he is that stupid.
As a former WW, I see no signs that your W isn't serious about reconciliation, which means, she certainly is not serious about doing the necessary work ahead. Don't let her come back, until that wayward spirit is broken. She is playing games, and she's playing you. She has made the usual WW statements. This entire situation has nothing to do with her trusting you. Don't ever forget it. She is the one who betrayed, lied, committed adultery, ect. I don't know what may have happened in past times, but if you didn't cheat on her.........then you can't compare apples with oranges. Make sense? She is the one who has to humbly apologize. Not this business of, "I just don't know if I can trust you or if you would ever forgive me". No.....that doesn't cut it. She should be so torn up that she can't look at you, and she certainly shouldn't feel she deserves forgiveness. She should show deep remorse for her unfaithfulness and the personal pain she caused you. There should be no hint of justification or pride. She doesn't get to dangle you at the end of the rope, while she makes up her mind if she wants to give you another chance to make her happy. You see, in her viewpoint, it's all about her happiness. That is her top priority, and she thinks making her happy should be your number one priority, too. Nothing can compare with the selfishness and sense of entitlement, quite like the WW.
So, here are my suggestions. Stop having talks with her. Stop agreeing to have meet ups and luncheons/dinners. Stop repeating your stipulations for reconciliation. At this point, she knows what you want, and there is nothing else to discuss. She wants your availability, and that's why she makes these excuses to talk. Stop giving her your time & attention. Don't explain anything, just stop. She'll know why, but she'll play stupid, b/c she wants to get you into another long drawn out conversation. Remember, don't explain what you are doing, or why you are doing it. If she invites you to meet with her, just tell her you have nothing more to discuss. I mean, you don't have to see how ugly or rude you can tell her, but you might have to be firm, if she's not use to being told "no".
Here's the thing, you are going to have to dump her. It's the last thing the WW expects! The WW wants to keep her LBH's availability. She wants his friendship........but she doesn't want to be lovers with him. She keeps playing you, to keep you as her backup plan. You are so emotionally attached to her, it's hard for you to see clearly. You need to intentionally pull back and give both of you space, while you focus on the things that you enjoy. You have self respect, moral integrity, standards, dignity, etc., and you live your life based on the values that been instilled in you. When you feel yourself consumed by emotions, you need something bigger/stronger to guide you through. So, if you must, you can tell her that you need some space and time, but don't share with her everything you are learning from us.
This will throw her into more pursuit, and she'll probably temp check to gauge your emotional attachment to her. When you don't fall for it, then she'll get mad. So what! Let her get mad. Now, your first thought may be, "But won't this push her further away?" Don't you want her back, only if she cuts all contact (direct and indirectly) with OM, and is seriously remorseful and ready to commit to doing whatever it takes to save the M? Things usually get worse before they get better, and frankly, I don't think they've reached that point yet, b/c she's still playing footsie with OM. Detaching will help you see things with a clearer head.
Stop sharing a calendar with her! She fired you as her H, so she doesn't get to see your activity plans. You don't discuss your plans or anything else with her. Okay?
You are worried since there are no children that it will be a disadvantage, however, the WW doesn't let children stand in her way.......so don't fret over no kids.
I think the toughest part for you will be no conversations with her. Like many, you see the importance of healthy communication. However, you cannot talk a WW back into the M. You can't nice her back, either. Just to clarify, you don't need to tell her you are dumping her. Simply start conducting yourself as if you are. Break yourself from old habits, like responding to her text messages. You have nothing else to say. Trust me when I say that when she believes you are done, and she believes she's lost you, the more likely she'll get serious about saving her MR.........she will have a completely different attitude, and she will agree to your terms of reconciliation. It's not about her terms, b/c she was unfaithful, and there should be no leeway for her stubbornness or pride. If you see it, then she's not a point of humility.
Oh, BTW, before I forget to tell you........the transparency is not just so that you can keep track of her activity. If she is honestly working through her withdrawal stage of ending her affair, being transparent will work to support her. Knowing that you can see, can help her stay honest. I know, if she wants to cheat, she'll find a way. If she wants to work on her MR, and if she has nothing to hide......she'll be glad for you to see her clean record. The WW whines about not having privacy. Why does she need privacy from her H? That's the problem. When she has secret or exclusive relationships.....friendships.....communications........it invites trouble into the MR. So many people today are addicted to several means of private communications, so naturally, they don't want to give it up. Since when was it alright to have private/secret relationships with the opposite sex? I think it's safe to say, if this situation was reversed, she'd have a fit if she caught you in an inappropriate relationship. That's another one of those things about the WW that makes you go........"hum".
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Wow, thank you so much Sandi2 (and Steve85/AnotherStander/LH19), you've really hit several nails on the head. I think you're absolutely right about time to heal. I've been thinking ever since I found out about it all that it was moving quickly but I was so urged to try and fix everything and overrun with emotion I didn't want to slow things down. Now I do and I think I'm working through feelings for the long term. I figured we could work through all of that together but I don't want to store up any long term problems, it's a lot to deal with. For the last 3 months I've been reading relationship advice books and focusing on how to be a better husband (which is good self development, but quite ridiculous given the circumstances when the other partner isn't ready for commitment). I think my emotions took over and I was indirectly (and probably directly) pressuring her to come back which didn't help. W also thinks I like having control in the M so having me uninterested is a bit of a 360.
I've thought from the very beginning that some of the advice on here is very good and some of it is over the top and thought "well our M is a bit different, because my W is trying and some of these rules could be for stronger cases" but I've had to learn the hard way that I should have been stronger, more objective and not so empathetic from the start. When she came back but didn't hold up transparency I've developed that strength now. She's sending me messages saying she wants to come home, missed calls etc. but the space is actually doing me good now, and if she reaches a stage when she is properly engaged I'll be better for it. I actually don't want the WW back, I want the W I married back and feel I've got to wait for that to appear again before I'll be interested in working on it together.
Given the situation, W's said before she'd 'like to go back to the dating stage'. I don't know whether she is trying to say less commitment than a M? Or less pressure? If she was as interested as she was when we were dating I'd be willing to give that a go. As you say I'll know when I see it. She's trying to get reactions from me and volunteering to do things for me.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Did she start the R talk or did you?
She did. I'm not talking any R now or conditions or R. At all. I've said all I need to say anyway. We've spent weeks talking about those things too on and off (initiated on both sides).
Originally Posted by sandi2
it's all about her happiness. That is her top priority, and she thinks making her happy should be your number one priority, too. Nothing can compare with the selfishness and sense of entitlement, quite like the WW.
This is exactly it. So many times she's said "I just want to be happy".
Originally Posted by sandi2
I think the toughest part for you will be no conversations with her.
This is difficult, because she rings or messages and I feel rude if I see it and don't respond but I genuinely am quite busy.
Originally Posted by sandi2
the transparency is not just so that you can keep track of her activity. If she is honestly working through her withdrawal stage of ending her affair, being transparent will work to support her. Knowing that you can see, can help her stay honest.
I didn't think of it from that angle but it's an important point. I actually don't really want to pry into her conversations with friends. She thinks I want to be checking up on her all the time but as I've told her when we were discussing R early on, it's more a display that she's got nothing to hide. Being accountable keeping her on the straight and narrow is important though too.
The weakness in all my DB'ing is that I want to believe her that the A is history/didn't mean anything, and she wants to get the M back on track but is struggling emotionally, but I have to keep reminding myself she is a WW and if her actions are confusing it's because she is a WW. When she came to collect her stuff (day after moving out and 24hr NC) she said she was willing for total transparency etc and to make it work. But she said in return she'd want to not talk about the past at all (apart from in MC) and move on, and a few other things she wanted. I think we both need more time, but I'm conscious I don't want to miss the right time to R.
Sandi2 - previously on this thread it was mentioned that you had some advice on what a returning W should look like. I've looked through the forums on here but haven't found anything concrete. Have you got any pearls of wisdom on what to look for, and when a WW is "on the turn" to return to the M and give her all to make it work?
Sandi2 - previously on this thread it was mentioned that you had some advice on what a returning W should look like. I've looked through the forums on here but haven't found anything concrete. Have you got any pearls of wisdom on what to look for, and when a WW is "on the turn" to return to the M and give her all to make it work?
Here's a short list, and these come in no particular order. The WW may not express all of these at once. My caution to the LBH is to take it slow and don't delete any of these things to make it easy for her to come back to you. Letting her come back too quickly and/or too easily is a big mistake. I promise, you will regret it.
*Remorse and expression of repentance *Humbleness (it will show mostly in her attitude) *Gives a sincere apology (with no excuses) for the pain she has caused you. *Takes full responsibility for her actions, without excuses or blame......(especially an affair, and without trying to put some responsibility on your back). *Willingness to do whatever you say is necessary to reconcile. She doesn't get to call the shots. *Agreeing to your terms (end the affair cold turkey, no contact with OM, transparency, STD tests, share MBR with you, marriage counseling, etc.) *Cooperation
Don't tell her the emotions you need to see in her. WW's are great actresses, b/c they are deceivers. To tell her what emotions to show, is giving away your ability to determine if she's being genuine or playing you for a fool.
If she should ask what it will take or what she has to do, then you can tell her everything except the first two. That doesn't mean you have to take her back right then....b/c you are the offended partner here. If she agrees to those terms, then you can take time to decide if you think she's serious or not. Here's the thing, most LBH's are way to eager to take back a wayward wife, and they are afraid to make it difficult for her return. If he only understood how important it is to not let her come back too quickly or too easily. What I mean by coming back too easily, is that she has not processed and/or made changes, so she basically has the same mindset.
My second link on Help for the LBH with a WW talks about this subject.
I may copy and past one of the posts from that thread.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
You see, in her viewpoint, it's all about her happiness. That is her top priority, and she thinks making her happy should be your number one priority, too. Nothing can compare with the selfishness and sense of entitlement, quite like the WW.