Cardinal, (I’m back and caught up with current on-goings). Our stories, H’s behaviour and our own feelings continue to mirror each other in such a huge way. I hesitate to offer advice on here especially while I struggle in many of the same ways...but I get the sense that letting go/detaching, fears and not being kind to ourselves are tricky areas to process for you or at least keep resurfacing when we aren’t living in the present...as they are and do for me.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I think I spend too much energy being frustrated with myself when I spiral away from that in-the-present thinking and get caught up in all the feelings that elemental fear brings with it (only memories of H, no future H, all that). I will try to observe the fear when it feels overwhelming, uncouple it, but not dwell in it or on it. That is something I can control, even if it takes practice.
MEEEE too. ^^^ it’s very difficult to replace these feelings of “no future with H”, the life and securities we’ve built with our H’s with anything but hope. I search for something more concrete but feel it doesn’t exist. DnJ and Job do a great job of reminding us to as you say let it wash over us but don’t dwell.
Originally Posted by cardinal
And, Wayfarer, posting this from IronWill's thread as a reminder to me too (I know DnJ has said as much also!):
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Dropping the rope isn't letting go of hope. Dropping the rope is letting go of fear, expectations, and control. Hope exists outside of what our WS/WAS are doing. Hope is for us. Not them. Letting go of the fear frees us, not them. Letting go of the control and expectations frees both of us.
Patience, I am cultivating. Dig deeper for patience, time is your friend--these phrases bring me comfort. I have moments of giving up control and therefore fear, then feeling lighter, freer, but they come and go. I'm ready (impatient!) for this to be a permanent state of mind. No surprise, I'm also very type A! Do you find this has happened for you through conscious work, or mostly subconscious? BREAK IT DOWN FOR ME. Haha. May also mentioned it being a process beginning with acceptance. This all makes so much sense, and I think I make progress in understanding it logically, but I haven't fully internalized it. I think there is still part of my brain (or maybe it's the emotional part of me) that equates dropping the rope with giving up hope, even though I don't believe that is true.
I don’t know if this will help or not (and I wish I could remember who’s post I saw it on) because the way I write it won’t do it justice ...but I’ll give it a shot. I’m such a visual person and this helps me to remember to let go - it doesn’t mean give up. *** Picture a person walking along the beach with their dog on a really long leash. The dog is enjoying running ahead, playing in the water, chasing birds, doing doggy things. Opposite to the water is a mess of thick brush and downed trees. The dog runs off miles ahead (while the owner still holds the leash) chasing after something and gets himself all tangled up in the brush and thick mess of branches and his leash. The owners first response is to hold the leash tighter so the dog doesn’t break free or get lost by continuing to run further. But the dog just gets more and more tangled. The owner has no choice but to let go of the leash and allow the dog to detangle himself free of the “rope” that is holding him back from getting out of the tangled branches and mess. The dog will choose to run back to its owner or continue ‘chasing’.***
If someone recognizes the above pls take credit for it and thank you for helping me to see that letting go of the rope is not giving up, it’s letting go of control. It’s detaching. We can’t control which way our H’s will go, but we can loosen the leash to allow them the freedom to choose what they will. By holding on tight we create a suffocating, tangled mess. Now if I could just continuously live this I’d be in much better shape. But one day at a time. I hope that visual can help you a little Cardinal with “fear, control and detachment”.
You all already know this, but what a gift to feel less alone going through all of this. Thank you so much for taking the time to read and offer your advice and support! It's been busy at work and I haven't had time to reply, but I've been reading your posts.
Earlier this week I texted H for the first time in forever to joke about something that came in the mail for him. I just wanted to share the joke and realized I didn't care if he texted me back or not, so I went for it. That's a big difference from five or six months ago when it hurt every day we didn't text. He joked back, though, a nice surprise. No expectations.
I also came home to an envelope from the courthouse and had a moment where all of my emotions seemed to freeze. It was an invitation to apply to serve on a grand jury. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why I've been feeling more pessimistic re: D today.
Kindly, that dog & leash analogy is helpful—thank you for sharing it here! I was thinking about that today when I replied to HopeCA's post about feeling like the more I try to force new levels of detachment, the less it happens. I feel like I'm doing all I can at the moment to drop the leash, but I just don't have that internal feeling of having dropped it. I feel like I'm trying to rush through all of this and maybe I have to allow it to happen on its own timeline. Maybe I'm trying so hard I don't notice incremental progress.
When H told me he'd be dog/house-sitting for the next several days, I felt a mixture of sadness and relief. He made it a point to say it was just down the street. A couple of months ago, he wouldn't have said anything, and I'd just be wondering why he was suddenly gone at night. He said he'd be in and out but mostly there, and the last two nights I've been alone, unless you count his stopping by the house to grab a few cooking supplies. On the one hand, this gives me some more time to myself; on the other, my brain wants to jump to the worry that he'll move out at some point. I got a little pang in my chest when I saw the items he took over with him, had to stop myself from spending time imagining him taking more and more and more until nothing is left. I've been better at not dwelling on the unknown future, but I am starting to feel a bit of melancholy coming home to an empty house and waking up to an empty house, and that worry is edging into my thoughts more than I'd like it to. I try to turn my mind back to the present instead, remind myself that all of my fears aren't reality right this second, so why focus on them? At least I'll be able to get out in the yard tomorrow—that should bring my mind back to the present.
Hi Cardinal, hope you were able to get out into your garden! I’m envious ...mine is under a foot of snow still. Can’t wait to see the asparagus poking through the soil! Gardening is such a great mental de-stressor for me too. Keep up the PMA the best you can...let’s continue to focus on us. We got this.
H popped in a couple times yesterday, engaged with me briefly, then said bye when he left, which is rare. It was nice to feel acknowledged in that basic way. I made orange shortbread cookies; since I’m thinking up ways to use all the fresh oranges gifted by a friend. It’s been windy, so I haven’t done much outside yet, but I did try starting some seeds inside. Kindly, I often wish it would snow here! But a thaw is on its way to you, spring is on the way.
These words May wrote to Wayfarer struck me this morning:
Originally Posted by may22
Know also that he may feel that he has done so much damage to your R that it is not fixable in his mind right now. I know my H has said this before too-- he can't imagine me ever forgiving him or him ever forgiving himself. There may be that element to it also.
And, your H has bought so deeply into the idea that your M was over that it might not be that easy for him to let go of it... in fact his ego may not let him. Think of it this way-- if his story is that your M wasn't working and wasn't fixable and he turned to the OW, it makes him less of a bad guy for cheating because well your M was doomed anyway. If he admits to himself that the M is fixable, then it makes everything he's done so, so much worse. So by maintaining he's going to leave is also kind of preserving his own sense of self and his vision of why he did what he did.
Still no idea if my H has ever had EA or PA, but during BD and November R talk he said that our marriage is unfixable, that others said that too, that his IC agreed (which I didn’t/don’t buy—he’s hearing what he wants or twisting her words somehow). In other words, he was seeking out reassurance and finding it wherever he needed to. Where he didn’t find it, he probably didn’t listen. So it wouldn’t surprise me if this was/is his mindset too. If it’s fixable, he is being a bit selfish, when he seemed to need to push back against that fear—not selfish, just finally putting himself first. And then in that R talk he seemed to contradict the unfixable pronouncement by acknowledging that I have changed, but he’s afraid if we tried he’d be hurt again, all of that stuff.
All of that seems quite common here. I’m wondering: How do any of these WAS change their perspectives? Obviously some do. We can’t do it for them. It seems a big factor is time—they need time and distance to perhaps begin to see possibility where they saw only justifications for their leaving before.
Cardinal, I imagine going into your house and just smelling all the fresh baked goods....yumm!! How can your H walk away from that?!
Ego, pride, whatever it is....when they are not ready, just let it be. It easy to run. It takes hard work to face your choices and suffer the consequences. I imagine not many WAS can gather up the strength to do so.
I do think it is some combination of them feeling like it is all just easier/safer/smarter to cut bait on the old R and start afresh. They also see more of the damage to the R than we do, I bet, since they know what they've done or thought outside of the MR (whether an actual A or the thinking about it) and we only know what percentage of that we've been told or found out. And, by standing, we're all saying that we believe in this R and that it is fixable-- and therefore focusing on the positive-- and they're in the opposite corner, focusing on the negative and all that. I think cognitive dissonance plays a huge role too, especially with infidelity (would need to think on it more if there wasn't an OW involved)-- no-one wants to think of themselves as an immoral person, and the vast majority of people believe infidelity is immoral (Esther Perel says the only sin that gets TWO commandments, one for doing it and one for just thinking about it)-- so therefore in order to maintain their own image as a good person they need to build up this whole narrative about the M not working anyway, the AP being true love that can't be denied, etc. It has got to be so exhausting to live with those mental gymnastics. I do think space and time are critical factors. No-one can make this choice for them, to let go of the fantasy of what could be outside the M as well as the mirror image dystopian story they've built up about the M and its future-- and in the place of that be able to have the mental fortitude to do the hard work it takes to work on M2.0. It has got to be something they decide to do if it is going to work.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Good morning—I can hear birds singing, someone shoveling, spring sounds.
May and Wooba, DnJ, here's me spending time trying to understand again. Ultimately you're both right that the point is the decision is ultimately the WAS, no matter how they get there. I'm just curious about what it might be like to get to that place. I hope I am not putting any roadblocks up, and I also hope I don't appear to H to be sitting around on my hands waiting for him to go through his journey.
H brought back the stuff that he'd taken with him to house-set this morning. I'd been wondering if we'd walk down the street to vote together like always, or, if not, how he'd possibly avoid that, since we're always there right when the polls open. He said bye and drove off, and I left a few minutes later on foot. Of course he was the only one at the polling place when I arrived. It made it more awkward that he didn't say anything when he left the house, like, See you at the ___, I guess! We waited for it to open and I asked him how the dog-sitting was going. He said it was nice having dogs sleeping on him. He made a weird face, and I pointed that out, and he said, yeah, I'll miss the dogs. He's always wanted a dog, but we had cats (who I know he also really loves). I asked what kind of dogs they were, and he told me a little more about them. We talked a bit about the election.
The poll workers were ready, then, and I was in line behind him. They checked off his name and then mine, and the woman said, "Ah, you're right above your husband in the list." H was a few steps in front of me at that point, but I'm sure he heard. We voted, then waited as the poll workers stumbled charmingly through the next steps, as usually happens when we're the first voters.
Overall it was a bit awkward because we hadn't really seen each other in several days, and when that happens he seems to warm up a bit after the initial interaction. At least, I think he felt awkward at first, and I decided to just act normal, PMA, ask him about the dogs... and by the end we were both kind of laughing together at the antics of the poll workers.
But, ugh, it's just so hard to face the reality again and again that H has put up this wall and we can't just talk like people who've been best friends/M for 16 years! We are not strangers! I mean, there are moments when it feels like we are people with a history who are talking to each other. Maybe moreso lately than in the first six months after BD, when he seemed really angry and withdrawn. But it's still feels so weird to go from being totally at ease with each other, to BD, to no talking mixed with small talk. It seems more "normal" (but maybe also more horrible) in sitches where the WAS is still sometimes interacting with the LBS like an H or W—like that way of being makes more sense to me, because it seems like it would be harder for the WAS to just distance themselves 100%. But maybe I've got that wrong. Maybe it's easier to throw up that distance, easier on the WAS anyway.
I sometimes wonder if he is also protecting himself from feeling feelings about me/about the situation by maintaining his distance in this way. Sometimes it hurts because it feels like indifference on his part, but I don't really believe that it is indifference. It seems more like a way he has to be to cope with his life right now.
I sometimes wonder if he is also protecting himself from feeling feelings about me/about the situation by maintaining his distance in this way. Sometimes it hurts because it feels like indifference on his part, but I don't really believe that it is indifference. It seems more like a way he has to be to cope with his life right now.
Originally Posted by may22
I do think it is some combination of them feeling like it is all just easier/safer/smarter to cut bait on the old R and start afresh. They also see more of the damage to the R than we do, I bet, since they know what they've done or thought outside of the MR (whether an actual A or the thinking about it) and we only know what percentage of that we've been told or found out..
Originally Posted by may22
....so therefore in order to maintain their own image as a good person they need to build up this whole narrative about the M not working anyway, the AP being true love that can't be denied, etc. It has got to be so exhausting to live with those mental gymnastics. I do think space and time are critical factors. No-one can make this choice for them, to let go of the fantasy of what could be outside the M as well as the mirror image dystopian story they've built up about the M and its future-- and in the place of that be able to have the mental fortitude to do the hard work it takes to work on M2.0. It has got to be something they decide to do if it is going to work.
Originally Posted by wooba
Ego, pride, whatever it is....when they are not ready, just let it be. It easy to run. It takes hard work to face your choices and suffer the consequences. I imagine not many WAS can gather up the strength to do so.
Cardinal, May and Wooba - all such great and helpful insights into the MLC/WAS way of thinking. In black and white it all seems so accurate and certainly fits the behaviour of my H. Why is it so much easier to take this knowledge and dismiss it as inaccurate and replace it with our narrative that we the LBS have done something wrong to bring this unwanted situation upon ourselves? I’m happy that with time I’m starting to feel that self doubt drift away, not all the time but it is much better! ...I hope you are too Cardinal ...it’s so damaging for our own mental health.
Originally Posted by cardinal
How do any of these WAS change their perspectives? Obviously some do. We can’t do it for them. It seems a big factor is time—they need time and distance to perhaps begin to see possibility where they saw only justifications for their leaving before.
I find this so curious too...I know this is a marathon but when you see NO signs from H of thinking or dealing or “coming around” at all, it really is easy to feel hopeless. I truly feel like running is absolutely easier for him and I don’t see how he stops and deals with the painful emotions of what he’s done on top of what he’s already going through...I’m s-l-o-w-l-y learning to be ok with “time will tell”. (((Hugs)))
This is a marathon. I've never been a runner--well, once in high school I tried to take it up, running loops around the cemetery down the street. Kindly, you're around seven months now, I'm at around nine. I think I've said this before, but the time has flown by for me. I'm not sure how it feels for you. Maybe I'm better at pacing myself than in the first 6 months. The way I hope has changed--it's a longer-term hope now, more open-ended, on good days, whereas I remember feeling like it seemed so possible that H and I would be going out to dinner, that all this could shift as quickly as it had come, in the first few months after BD. Is it common to also feel bouts of hopelessness as time stretches on? I imagine that settles too as the state of compassionate indifference becomes habit.
I think a positive change in my sitch is that H seems to have slowed down. He's not running himself into the ground every night, his moods have stabilized around me. As I stopped leaving him little notes (usually about practical things, as we were hardly in the house at the same time)--notes he saved and still keeps in an area of his room--and stopped engaging him first since January (mostly! see above election encounter--ha), he has engaged me more. He is still seeing his IC.
Why is he still seeing his IC? I don't imagine he talks about me much--my guess is he sees the R as in the past now--but I hope he is slowly learning more about himself. I think he must have many places in which to compartmentalize past and present pieces of his life, as he manages to be both open to self-exploration with IC and yet closed to exploration of our M and his role in what it was, what it could be.
As I've written before, sometimes I struggle with the fact that this year he has seemed, on the outside, much less volatile, much less angry and depressed. I struggle because I suppose I equate that with "moving on." (Yet I just listed this decreased moodiness as a positive above!) As in, I was the problem--he removed me from his life and he's good now. It really was that simple.
How could it be that simple? Suddenly pull the plug on a 10-year marriage, and everything falls into place! I know it's not that simple.
I suppose it's more than that--it's that I know inside he probably is still struggling with, as DnJ wrote earlier, emotions cranked incredibly high. I feel he's unmoored in himself but appears steady. Maybe even to himself. When I am not rationalizing my anxiety that he is magically all better without me (see above: I know it's not that easy), I worry that he appears stable but is actually silently, slowly spinning of control, just in a much slower, less obvious way than he was last year, while convincing himself everything is perfectly fine; he's perfectly happy. His new friends don't see all the layers of him, which includes old H as much as new H. He spins slowly, out of orbit.
I don't have hold of that rope anymore--maybe I haven't really dropped it yet, but it's frayed, anyway; I can't pull him back. I have to trust that he'll find his way back somehow.
This post of yours resonates. You see someone putting this distance so defiantly, so sure of themselves and their actions. Then for me, after about 6 or 7 months, a human began to emerge. Why? Was it his thoughts, his processes? Was it my GALing, dropping the rope bit by bit? I am ten months in this month and as you know from my post you posted on, that we have had some hopelessness on my part.
We need to remember that they are on the rollercoaster and we can ride this with them with the ups and downs, but me, I actually would get sick from continually riding, so I will stand off to the side and be there when he decides he’s had enough.
Coming on this board has been a lifesaver. It is sad that so many of us are dealing with this, yet the community has been so helpful. I also would like so have some cookies!
Let’s continue doing our GALing and we can come out even better than when we came here.
